Duncan Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 it's my understanding that missionaries aren't supposed to teach and baptize people who aren't accountable but how do you and who determines who is accountable and who isn't?
Log Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Actually, here's the fun bit: it doesn't matter whether the unaccountable are baptised or not - so why not dunk 'em all? 1
ERayR Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) it's my understanding that missionaries aren't supposed to teach and baptize people who aren't accountable but how do you and who determines who is accountable and who isn't?That would be if their capacity to understand the gospel and their understanding of it is ls less than the age of accountability. Edited May 12, 2012 by ERayR
CV75 Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 it's my understanding that missionaries aren't supposed to teach and baptize people who aren't accountable but how do you and who determines who is accountable and who isn't?In my case, I volunteered that information. But fortunately I think the misionaries use their best judgement. If they are mistaken, someoneone else will pick up the correct course.
Glenn101 Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 Do missionaries actually make that determination? Isn't that so0emthing that a bishop, branch president, or mission president would do?On a related note, I have a son who is not accountable, but he was baptized upon his own request. Maybe to "fulfill all righteousness?"Glenn
Duncan Posted May 12, 2012 Author Posted May 12, 2012 it seems at least here that people regardless of their mental capacity are baptized and the ward can't do anything aside from going to the Mission President who sides with the missionaries
Mudcat Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 Actually, here's the fun bit: it doesn't matter whether the unaccountable are baptised or not - so why not dunk 'em all?That is a really good point Log. I am not LDS, but have heard the premise of the retroactivity of a LDS baptism upon belief. As I consider it, the notion of infant baptism, were it not for prophetic LDS statements opposed to it, would make a great deal of since.
bu11fr0g Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 @mudcatNo retroactive baptism for ldsBaptised in this lifeBaptised by proxy after death orCovered by the atonement (youn children and mentally incompetent)
Traela Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 Recently in my area, a woman with Down's Syndrome was baptized at her own request. Her reasoning was that if Jesus was baptized, even though he really didn't need to be, then she could be baptized too. Her bishop basically decided that if she could figure that out, he wasn't going to argue with her.
thesometimesaint Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 Traela:Lots depends on the mental abilities of the Down's Syndrome person. Most can't understand the meaning of the ceremony, but a few can.
altersteve Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 Recently in my area, a woman with Down's Syndrome was baptized at her own request. Her reasoning was that if Jesus was baptized, even though he really didn't need to be, then she could be baptized too. Her bishop basically decided that if she could figure that out, he wasn't going to argue with her.Those with Down's Syndrome are such great people.
thesometimesaint Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 altersteve:Some are, some aren't Just like those of us "normal" people. Having the mind of a two year old in 32 year old body isn't great.
rpn Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 Bishops make the decision with parent input. But I think that too often parents shortchange their disabled children's potential and capability by deciding they are not accountable, when they could really use the gift of the Holy Ghost to help them. If I were the parent of a disabled child, I would have them baptized if they were willing (meaning not afraid of the water). I taught a 14 year old ASD non-verbal student in SS one year whose parents had not had her baptized. We had the toy closet in our room and it was tilted so the door always slowly opened. One day, after a week missing class for conference, this young women came to class early, tried a whole lot of different things to keep the door shut on the cupboard, until she found something that worked. She might not have had communication, but she surely had 8 year old cognition --- and probably a lot more.I do understand the dilemma for parents though. Raising a child with disabiltiies can be challenging and if that child's automatic place in the celestial kingdom is assured if they are unaccountable, maybe counting on that view of the child provides comfort to the parent or even purpose.
Duncan Posted May 12, 2012 Author Posted May 12, 2012 what if its missionaries teaching them-of course the person has ot be interviewed but I have yet to see someone not pass an interview with mental health concerns-legal concerns yes
Kenngo1969 Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) I understand the problem of not baptizing one who is accountable (see Doctrine & Covenants 68:25), as well as the problem of teaching that the unaccountable still can sin and therefore need baptism (see Moroni 8:8-15), but I guess I'm not understanding the problem underlying baptizing the unaccountable anyway. Yes, maybe some missionary (or missionaries, perhaps many) somewhere is trying to "pad" his/her/their "stats" (converts aren't "theirs" anyway, but rather the Lord's).A member of one of the wards where I served my mission invited us to the baptism of his cognitively-disabled son. Immediately after being confirmed, the young lad lept from his chair to shake the hands of the brethren in the circle with an exuberant, "Thank you!" (Thinking about it gets to me to this day, perhaps in no small part because, while I'm not cognitively disabled, I am developmentally disabled). I asked myself then, and often have since, How great is that? Would that we all were so exultant at receiving this great Gift of the Holy Ghost! I guarantee that, even if that ordinance largely was a formality for that young boy, he certainly doesn't take it for granted the same way that a lot of us, who need it a heckuva lot more, take it for granted. Just food for thought. Edited May 12, 2012 by Kenngo1969
altersteve Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 altersteve:Some are, some aren't Just like those of us "normal" people. Having the mind of a two year old in 32 year old body isn't great.I'm not saying the disability is great, I'm saying the people are.
mfbukowski Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) Actually, here's the fun bit: it doesn't matter whether the unaccountable are baptised or not - so why not dunk 'em all?And let God sort 'em out.Agreed. If it is not obvious that the person is unaccountable- what's the harm in baptizing them as long as they consent? Edited May 13, 2012 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) it's my understanding that missionaries aren't supposed to teach and baptize people who aren't accountable but how do you and who determines who is accountable and who isn't?Seriously, if there was doubt, it would be up to the mission president technically, but if the bishop thought the person was accountable I am sure the president would not go against the bishop's wishes, especially since it would be the bishop's responsibility to make sure the person was integrated into the church- which might be a "tall order" in a case like this. Edited May 13, 2012 by mfbukowski
BCSpace Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 Actually, here's the fun bit: it doesn't matter whether the unaccountable are baptised or not - so why not dunk 'em all?Because then one would be in the gall of bitterness according to Moroni.
thesometimesaint Posted May 14, 2012 Posted May 14, 2012 I believe the parents or legal guardian should have a lot of say in any decision.
cinepro Posted May 14, 2012 Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Traela:Lots depends on the mental abilities of the Down's Syndrome person. Most can't understand the meaning of the ceremony, but a few can.We recently had a young man with Down's Syndrome get baptized and ordained to the Priesthood in my ward. He regularly passes the sacrament. I don't know the story behind the decision to allow it, but it seems to have worked out well. We also have a priest with pretty severe autism who blesses the sacrament.But I've seen other members of the Church who were just as autistic or had Down's Syndrome and didn't get baptized or ordained. So I imagine it's a decision made with the input of the parents, the bishop, other Church authorities, and the person themselves. Edited May 14, 2012 by cinepro
thesometimesaint Posted May 14, 2012 Posted May 14, 2012 cinepro:I'm not unilaterally opposed to such, but I do believe a lot of care should be taken to make sure the person understands.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 14, 2012 Posted May 14, 2012 Recently in my area, a woman with Down's Syndrome was baptized at her own request. Her reasoning was that if Jesus was baptized, even though he really didn't need to be, then she could be baptized too. Her bishop basically decided that if she could figure that out, he wasn't going to argue with her.Down's Syndrome notwithstanding, she's a much smarter woman than perhaps many give her credit for.
LoudmouthMormon Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 The answer that makes sense to me, is the bishop and guardian(s) make the decision, hopefully influenced by the spirit if necessary.Although we've made great advances in learning how brains work, there's still a lot we don't understand. Plus, there's always folks who are ignorant about disabilities in the first place. There are folks who can't speak or move much, but don't really have severe cognitive impairments.
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