Handcart Companies

[bu11fr0g]

What does it say about God's concerns and His speaking to prophets when the handcart disasters happen?

[Kenngo1969]

Why does anything bad happen to anyone good? Moral agency? Opposition in all things? Man's inhumanity to man? Hap crappening? God working in the lives of His children to make his works manifest in them even when bad things happen to them (i.e., "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?")?

The following excerpt from an address by President James E. Faust recounts an account of one of the participants in the Martin and Willie Handcart Companies. While I know your question is broader than the suffering experienced by those companies, it speaks to the broader issue of suffering in general.

Some years ago President David O. McKay (1873–1970) told of the experience of some of those in the Martin handcart company. Many of these early converts had emigrated from Europe and were too poor to buy oxen or horses and a wagon. They were forced by their poverty to pull handcarts containing all of their belongings across the plains by their own brute strength. President McKay related an occurrence which took place some years after the heroic exodus:

“A teacher, conducting a class, said it was unwise ever to attempt, even to permit them [the Martin handcart company] to come across the plains under such conditions.”

Then President McKay quoted an observer who was present in that class: “Some sharp criticism of the Church and its leaders was being indulged in for permitting any company of converts to venture across the plains with no more supplies or protection than a handcart caravan afforded.

“An old man in the corner … sat silent and listened as long as he could stand it, then he arose and said things that no person who heard him will ever forget. His face was white with emotion, yet he spoke calmly, deliberately, but with great earnestness and sincerity.

“In substance [he] said, ‘I ask you to stop this criticism. You are discussing a matter you know nothing about. Cold historic facts mean nothing here, for they give no proper interpretation of the questions involved. Mistake to send the Handcart Company out so late in the season? Yes. But I was in that company and my wife was in it and Sister Nellie Unthank whom you have cited was there, too. We suffered beyond anything you can imagine and many died of exposure and starvation, but did you ever hear a survivor of that company utter a word of criticism? …

“‘I have pulled my handcart when I was so weak and weary from illness and lack of food that I could hardly put one foot ahead of the other. I have looked ahead and seen a patch of sand or a hill slope and I have said, I can go only that far and there I must give up, for I cannot pull the load through it.’”

He continues: “‘I have gone on to that sand and when I reached it, the cart began pushing me. I have looked back many times to see who was pushing my cart, but my eyes saw no one. I knew then that the angels of God were there.

“‘Was I sorry that I chose to come by handcart? No. Neither then nor any minute of my life since. The price we paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay, and I am thankful that I was privileged to come in the Martin Handcart Company.’”

President James E. Faust, "Refined in Our Trials," Ensign, February, 2006, accessed on line May 2, 2012 at http://www.lds.org/e...trials?lang=eng

Suffering can be a great teacher if we let it. Often, when we're going through the trial, it's difficult to see what we're supposed to be learning from it. With the benefit of hindsight, however, often we realize that we learned things through our trials that would have been difficult if not impossible to learn in any other way.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[ERayR]

What does it say about God's concerns and His speaking to prophets when the handcart disasters happen?

It says he was very concerned when those companies started as late in the season as they did, against good advice. However, they had their agency and could choose for themselves.

[Anijen]

My last paper was on the handcart companies. I hope to get it published soon.

Out of the ten handcart companies eight were considered very successful. The Willie and Martin Handcart Company could have been too if they could have started sooner.

I see ErayR already posted what was on my mind and in a very succinct matter, so I will leave it at that.

Edited to say; that's not saying these two companies were not without their share of miracles. Many of their journals record some pretty miraculous events.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Jeff Holt

[Kenngo1969]

My last paper was on the handcart companies. I hope to get it published soon.

Out of the ten handcart companies eight were considered very successful. The Willie and Martin Handcart Company could have been too if they could have started sooner.

I see ErayR already posted what was on my mind and in a very succinct matter, so I will leave it at that.

Edited to say; that's not saying these two companies were not without their share of miracles. Many of their journals record some pretty miraculous events.

See here: http://www.17miracles.com/

[Kenngo1969]

This is what Levi Savage said after he warned the Willey company against leaving so late in the season:

Brethren and sisters, what I have said I know to be true, but seeing you are to go forward, I will go with you, will help you all I can, will work with you, will rest with you, will suffer with you, and if necessary I will die with you. May God have mercy bless and preserve us.

[bluebell]

I think it says that God is not a part of our lives in order to make sure that we never have severe trials or tests or suffer.

He will be there to lead us to the most furtile parts of our wildnerness, but the wilderness remains. He is looking at the big picture and the refiner's fire is a necessary part of exaltation.

[Storm Rider]

I am not so sure that God is really concerned about preserving our earthly bodies; did you think he was? Why?

God is more concerned about our eternal welfare; how did you miss that message?

[cinepro]

See here: http://www.17miracles.com/

Then see here:

http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/23/17-miracles-more-or-less/

[ERMD]

What does it say about God's concerns for His servants when he allows them to be killed like John the Baptist and the Apostles?

[cdowis]

May I suggest that you watch the movie (on DVD), "17 Miracles" which recounts what happened and the results. I think you will have a better understanding.

[Calm]

An interesting blog about the movie and the trek: http://www.mormonheretic.org/2011/06/08/17-miracles-the-faithful-and-foolhardy-willie-handcart-company/

[cinepro]

May I suggest that you watch the movie (on DVD), "17 Miracles" which recounts what happened and the results. I think you will have a better understanding.

As with any movie depicting historical events, "17 Miracles" takes artistic liberty in depicting the stories, so it probably shouldn't be used as a reference or for historical understanding.

[Bob Crockett]

It says he was very concerned when those companies started as late in the season as they did, against good advice. However, they had their agency and could choose for themselves.

I'm a big believer in this concept. A recent negative book, by David Roberts, on the handcart company condemned in particular Franklin S. Richards for being responsible for the tragedy. Yet, Roberts acknowledges there were large numbers of "back outs," members of the company who thought it was too risky.

[ERayR]

I'm a big believer in this concept. A recent negative book, by David Roberts, on the handcart company condemned in particular Franklin S. Richards for being responsible for the tragedy. Yet, Roberts acknowledges there were large numbers of "back outs," members of the company who thought it was too risky.

I am loath to start casting blame at anyone. Going from memory, most of the ones who made up the companies had gotten a late start due to delays in England and with the sea journey and many did not have the means to sit out the winter and wait for spring. Circumstances and poor choices, perhaps forced upon them by circumstances, made things ripe for disaster. Sometimes decisions are not made under ideal circumstances and one is forced into risky situations. I have been in that position a few times myself. You make choices and go forward. This time the consequences were deadly. The choice for many was go forward or starve with their families waiting out the winter. Not much choice.

[The Nehor]

What does it say about God's concerns and His speaking to prophets when the handcart disasters happen?

That God rarely gives his saints easy lives. Is this a surprise to anyone?

[Bernard Gui]

What does it say about God's concerns and His speaking to prophets when the handcart disasters happen?

The answer is in your signature.

Bernard

[cdowis]

As with any movie depicting historical events, "17 Miracles" takes artistic liberty in depicting the stories, so it probably shouldn't be used as a reference or for historical understanding.

Of course there is artistic license, but PLEEZE give us specific details on it's inaccuracy in significant historical details.

Did you actually do research on this or are you are just blowing hot air. Let's see what you got.

[cinepro]

Of course there is artistic license, but PLEEZE give us specific details on it's inaccuracy in significant historical details.

Did you actually do research on this or are you are just blowing hot air. Let's see what you got.

I was basing my comments on this review, by an actual Mormon historian: http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/23/17-miracles-more-or-less/

[Anijen]

Of course there is artistic license, but PLEEZE give us specific details on it's inaccuracy in significant historical details.

Did you actually do research on this or are you are just blowing hot air. Let's see what you got.

emphasis mine

Just a digression a little here. Most of us have heard of the three young men who carried many of the pioneers across the river. That story has been diluted a little bit. Historical records shows many of the rescuers also carried some of these destitute pioneers across the river. One journal tells of a mother who did it three times.These young men also lived 17-30+ years after the fact although we assumed they died young from the exposure. That they died from the exposure from doing such a courageous deed I couldn't tell you, but none of these three died soon after.

A few of my sources;

Jensen, Richard L. "Transplanted to Zion: The Impact of British Latter-day Saint Immigration upon Nauvoo." BYU Studies 31 (Winter 1991)

Personal Journal of handcarter, Andrew Jensen from Denmark, from 1890 up to 1924

Gail Holmes, president Historical Pioneer Research Group (currently serving at Winter Quarters).

Edited May 7, 2012 by Jeff Holt

[cdowis]

I was basing my comments on this review, by an actual Mormon historian: http://www.keepapitc...s-more-or-less/

OK, let's see what you got.

Well, this is a movie review. And who is this individual:

On the internet she is called a blogger, a columnist for the Salt Lake Tribune. an "independent historian" Her sole publication: co-edited with Paul Reeve Mormonism: A Historical Encyclopedia.

Now, I don't want to embarrass you, but where is her research? She says things like -->>

"I don't believe it, it showed bad editing, I'm asking simply what is a miracle and the movie does not adequately answer the question."

Ok, perhaps you can you give us her credentials -- PhD, MA, BA, did she graduate from high school? I couldn't find it, but since you are citing her as you source, perhaps you can find it. Did she do source material research on the Martin handcart company?

Thanks.

Edited May 7, 2012 by cdowis

[cinepro]

Ok, perhaps you can you give us her credentials -- PhD, MA, BA, did she graduate from high school? I couldn't find it, but since you are citing her as you source, perhaps you can find it. Did she do source material research on the Martin handcart company?

Thanks.

Let me see if I understand you. A cinematographer and a make-up artist write a move about handcart pioneers, and you're worried that Ardis Parshall isn't qualified to review the film?

That's not the oddest thing I've heard all week, but it's definitely in the top five.

For those not familiar with Ardis, here is some pertinent info:

Professional Services

By: Ardis E. Parshall - May 24, 2010

[under construction]

I am a historian and researcher-for-hire specializing in the collections at the LDS Church History Library in Salt Lake City, with access to other rich archives (University of Utah, Brigham Young University, Utah State Archives, Utah State Historical Society, and others). My clients are typically top-rank scholars of Mormon and Utah history whose professional lives are too full to allow them time to sift through ever-expanding archival holdings for the relevant documents and new voices they need for their work.

Why I may be useful to your projects:

• I work as a patron at the Church History Library virtually every day, surveying new collections and adding to my vast personal database of transcribed documents. I am there when you need me.
  
• I have transcribed tens of thousands of pages of 19th century holographic material. I can read most such material easily and can transcribe it as rapidly (150+ wpm) and as accurately as if it had been typewritten text.
  
• I have practical experience as a historian in my own right. My very first published article (“’Pursue, Retake & Punish’: The 1857 Santa Clara Ambush,” Utah Historical Quarterly 73:1 (Winter 2005), 64-86) won the Dale L. Morgan Award from the Utah State Historical Society. One client refers frequently to my “hunting instincts” – I somehow recognize that an obscure statement is important long before I realize exactly how it fits into the overall picture.
  
• I have the patience to search large, unindexed record collections (minute books, newspapers, ledgers, correspondence) to find material invisible to less-patient scholars or their student assistants.
  
• While I generally do not do genealogical research for hire, I am a skilled genealogist using the techniques of that field to locate documents and identify personal connections which are often overlooked by more traditional historians.
  
• I have a great deal of experience translating between “Mormon speak” and the wider culture, so that clients without a background in Mormonism understand the nuances and sometimes inscrutable language of 19th century Mormonism.

Edited May 7, 2012 by cinepro

[cdowis]

Let me see if I understand you. A cinematographer and a make-up artist write a move about handcart pioneers, and you're worried that Ardis Parshall isn't qualified to review the film?

In a clip found on the DVD, the cinematographer, actor, producer and make-up artist (this is an indie movie) claims that he did his homework -- reading the journals and that the movie accurately portrays the history.

Now, she does not tell us whether she did any research as a historian, or whether she is simply writing as a movie reviewer with no background research.

Edited May 7, 2012 by cdowis

[cinepro]

In a clip found on the DVD, the cinematographer, actor, producer and make-up artist (this is an indie movie) claims that he did his homework -- reading the journals and that the movie accurately portrays the history.

Now, she does not tell us whether she did any research as a historian, or whether she is simply writing as a movie reviewer with no background research.

Here is an anonymous summary of Ardis' credentials relating to handcart pioneers. Take it for what it's worth:

Ardis did the research for David Roberts's book on the Handcart debacle, Devils Gate. He spends some time at the end of the book extolling her skills.

Also William MacKinnon takes a long time in a footnote in his fascinating essay,"Lonely Bones" (google for a .pdf) to praise the her essay on the Santa Clara ambush.

Ardis is a very keen historian who writes with a very neutral brush despite, and I think because of, the fact she is a believing Mormon.

[cdowis]

OK, but I am still puzzled over using her review as your "source" to reject the movie to see how the Lord deals with His people. She dealt with the miracles as a reporter, not a historian. She shows no indications that the miracles were fiction, just that she did not believe that is how God works.

"I do not understand why God would have..............." She found herself laughing --

Along with the friend who accompanied me and with whom I found myself giggling at inappropriate moments, I repeatedly found myself wishing I had kept track of the miracles as they were ticked off so that I could know how many more I had to endure before the closing credits.

Your source is not her historical research, but her laughter, her doubts on how God does miracles.

And that question is exactly why I recommended the movie. Where she is laughing, I am trying to seek understanding.