Lottery Winnings?

[Mark Beesley]

And if someone bought you a beer, as a gift, it would be silly not to drink it.

Some analogies work, some, not so much.

[ksfisher]

Some analogies work, some, not so much.

But, both could be just as spiritually damaging in the long run.

[Mark Beesley]

But, both could be just as spiritually damaging in the long run.

That is an interesting concept. I had a discussion once on another board with a non-member about whether or not sins could differ in severity. I said yes, he said no. But I agree that in this case, both acts of purchasing a lottery ticket and/or consuming alcohol have the potential for devastating spiritual effects.

[ksfisher]

That is an interesting concept. I had a discussion once on another board with a non-member about whether or not sins could differ in severity. I said yes, he said no. But I agree that in this case, both acts of purchasing a lottery ticket and/or consuming alcohol have the potential for devastating spiritual effects.

And the argument could be made that winning the lottery could be much more dangerous than drinking a beer. We as latter day saints focus on the detrimental effects of breaking the Word of Wisdom, but not so much on the dangers of money.

During Christ's mortal life he drank wine, as did all in his culture, but he did teach that story about the camel and the eye of the needle.

(I'm not in any way promoting alcohol, I come from a long line of alcoholics.)

[Mark Beesley]

And the argument could be made that winning the lottery could be much more dangerous than drinking a beer. We as latter day saints focus on the detrimental effects of breaking the Word of Wisdom, but not so much on the dangers of money.

During Christ's mortal life he drank wine, as did all in his culture, but he did teach that story about the camel and the eye of the needle.

(I'm not in any way promoting alcohol, I come from a long line of alcoholics.)

I agree, except the chances of you actually winning the lottery as opposed to becoming an alcoholic . . .

[Mudcat]

Hi guitarist,

@ the topic of the OP.

Seems from reading the thread there are mixed opinions on tithing lottery winnings and it's acceptability by the CoJCoLDS.

Thought I would share something. The late D.L. Moody was criticized from accepting particular donations to his orginizations ministry efforts. Those donations were coming from drunkards in the Chicago bars he was witnessing in. His response to the criticism is paraphrased something like, "The Devil has had the money long enough, let's see what God can do with it."

I don't disagree with him on the matter. His statement has been used as a catch all amongst many evangelicals to justify the reception of funds that were the byproduct of questionable contributions.

I don't agree with gambling, it's destroyed many family's.

That being said, I don't see a clear place where the specific sinfulness of gambling is cited in the Bible. However, I think gambling in any serious sense, is a byproduct of placing the love of money before the love of God, and that certainly is sinful.

I am a member of the SBC, which is oppossed to gambling and I am not sure what there thoughts would be on recieving a tithe from gambling winnings. It would depend on the local church to make that call though.

IMO, I think tithing it would be the right thing to do and if the CoJCoLDS didn't want the funds, seek out other ways to follow through being a good steward of what you recieved.. water purification, medical or food assistance for suffering people would seem like a good idea. Though I think a contribution to a program that assisted families who were hurting because of gambling addiction would be a rather poignant stick in the eye to the devil;).

Not wanting to change the issue. But in a broader sense, the topic addresses what we are to do with the gains of something that had its roots in a sinful action. What does a person do who discovers they have fathered or mothered a child out of wedlock, seems like a relevant question to weigh in.

Regards,

Mudcat

[mfbukowski]

Hi guitarist,

@ the topic of the OP.

Seems from reading the thread there are mixed opinions on tithing lottery winnings and it's acceptability by the CoJCoLDS.

Thought I would share something. The late D.L. Moody was criticized from accepting particular donations to his orginizations ministry efforts. Those donations were coming from drunkards in the Chicago bars he was witnessing in. His response to the criticism is paraphrased something like, "The Devil has had the money long enough, let's see what God can do with it."

I don't disagree with him on the matter. His statement has been used as a catch all amongst many evangelicals to justify the reception of funds that were the byproduct of questionable contributions.

I don't agree with gambling, it's destroyed many family's.

That being said, I don't see a clear place where the specific sinfulness of gambling is cited in the Bible. However, I think gambling in any serious sense, is a byproduct of placing the love of money before the love of God, and that certainly is sinful.

I am a member of the SBC, which is oppossed to gambling and I am not sure what there thoughts would be on recieving a tithe from gambling winnings. It would depend on the local church to make that call though.

IMO, I think tithing it would be the right thing to do and if the CoJCoLDS didn't want the funds, seek out other ways to follow through being a good steward of what you recieved.. water purification, medical or food assistance for suffering people would seem like a good idea. Though I think a contribution to a program that assisted families who were hurting because of gambling addiction would be a rather poignant stick in the eye to the devil;).

Not wanting to change the issue. But in a broader sense, the topic addresses what we are to do with the gains of something that had its roots in a sinful action. What does a person do who discovers they have fathered or mothered a child out of wedlock, seems like a relevant question to weigh in.

Regards,

Mudcat

Good points! It seems to me that the church's position on gambling- or at least accepting funds from gambling-related activities is softening and changing.

As I recall, it used to be the case that tithing from gambling was not accepted. I had that in my mind as a certainty, and that it must be in a manual somewhere, but when I looked and looked through all the leadership manuals I could not find it anywhere.

If it had been there, it had disappeared. I might have been wrong that it was ever in there at all, but that is not the way I remembered it.

[Erin15]

Let's say that someone buys you a lottery ticket as a gift. Do you accept it?

It seems to me the proper response to this scenario is to not accept the gift in the first place.

[ERayR]

This family was featured on lds.org for raising funds for charity:

http://www.lds.org/c...=eng&country=ca

They did it by selling 50/50 tickets (you buy a ticket, if you win, you keep half of the money raised through ticket sales) at hockey games:

http://canucks.nhl.c...s.htm?id=625662

While not a ringing endorsement of gambling, I'd suggest this shows the Church isn't violently opposed to gambling, either. Since most state run lotteries benefit charities just like the one featured above, there is probably little harm in the occasional lotto ticket.

Most state fund lotteries Do Not benefit charities unless you are suggesting that government is a charity.

[ERayR]

But, both could be just as spiritually damaging in the long run.

Coulda, mighta, maybe. There are numerous things that could be spiritually damaging. How about a girlfriend or a wife or a husband or ...

[ERayR]

We as latter day saints focus on the detrimental effects of breaking the Word of Wisdom, but not so much on the dangers of money.

So because there are dangers to the way that money can be used we should not accept any. Doesn't seem too prudent when one considers the need for food, clothing and shelter.

[Erin15]

That is an interesting concept. I had a discussion once on another board with a non-member about whether or not sins could differ in severity. I said yes, he said no. But I agree that in this case, both acts of purchasing a lottery ticket and/or consuming alcohol have the potential for devastating spiritual effects.

I would add further that it is not just the chemicals in beer, for example, that cause a detrimental effect. Far and away the greatest spiritual effects are not from the liquid but the willfull disobedience of God's will.

That is not a potential devastating spiritual effect, that is an immediate devastating spiritual effect.

With gambling, likewise, the effects of addiction and inevitable financial ruin are important to consider, but they are very small compared to the immediate spiritual effects of willful disobedience when you buy that first ticket.

[ksfisher]

So because there are dangers to the way that money can be used we should not accept any. Doesn't seem too prudent when one considers the need for food, clothing and shelter.

I don't think that anything I said can be construed as saying we should not use money.

[Calm]

It seems to me the proper response to this scenario is to not accept the gift in the first place.

Depends on who is giving the gift and why....

If they have no knowledge of your personal stance against gambling and you don't know them well enough to simply turn it down without hurting feelings or coming across as ungrateful, why not accept the gift with a "I don't participate in such things myself, but this is thoughtful of you and continuing that frame of thought, if the ticket wins anything, it will give me the greatest of pleasures to donate the winnings to _______ (fill in your favourite charity)".

Edited August 27, 2012 by calmoriah

[Erin15]

Depends on who is giving the gift and why....

If they have no knowledge of your personal stance against gambling and you don't know them well enough to simply turn it down without hurting feelings or coming across as ungrateful

If they have no knowledge of your personal stance, then you have just been given a wonderful opportunity, not only to stand up for your prinicpals, but also to share them with others in a very natural way.

It is not advisible to be timid about gospel prinicples for fear of offending other people. You can be always be polite without participating. In this case, a simple, "That is a very thoughtful gift, and I thank you for it, but I cannot accept it. I am LDS and in my religion we do not gamble."

People may not share your principals, but they will respect the fact that you live them, and esteem you greater than they would have had you caved in under social pressure.

[ERayR]

Let's analyze the scenario described: Someone gives you a gift of a lottery ticket. First off the whole industry is gambling but does that mean you are gambling if you are given a ticket as a gift? The definition of gambling is as follows:

1.

a. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.

b. To play a game of chance for stakes.

2. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.

3. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.

v.tr.

1. To put up as a stake in gambling; wager.

2. To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission.

n.

1. A bet, wager, or other gambling venture.

2. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.

Have you bet on anything? No

Has your friend bet on anything? Not really they have spent a dollar and given it away to you.

Have you or your friend played a game of chance? A little tougher call but seems to me that neither of you are playing. You are not playing. You have not purchased a ticket. Your friend is not playing as he/she although purchasing a ticket gave it away.

Has either of you taken a risk to gain an advantage? You certainly have risk nothing and the friend has spent a dollar for a gift, hardly a risk.

Have either of you engaged in reckless or hazardous behavior? No

Has either one wagered anything? You haven't your friend hasn't. The friend has given you a gift.

Has either been exposed to a hazard or risk? No

Have either bet or wagered? Not really

Have either risk anything of value on an uncertain outcome? Not unless you consider a dollar really valuable>

I think the case can be made that no gambling has been done by you or your friend.

The church does accept tithing on sweepstakes winnings i.e. Readers Digest, Publishers Clearinghouse and there is just as much paid in postage costs on a couple of entries as on a lottery ticket given/received as a gift.

PS. My bishop said if someone in his ward won the lottery he would take their tithing and they would still be members in good standing.

Edited August 27, 2012 by ERayR

[ksfisher]

Let's analyze the scenario described: Someone gives you a gift of a lottery ticket. First off the whole industry is gambling but does that mean you are gambling if you are given a ticket as a gift? The definition of gambling is as follows:

1.

a. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.

b. To play a game of chance for stakes.

2. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.

3. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.

v.tr.

1. To put up as a stake in gambling; wager.

2. To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission.

n.

1. A bet, wager, or other gambling venture.

2. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.

Have you bet on anything? No

Has your friend bet on anything? Not really they have spent a dollar and given it away to you.

Have you or your friend played a game of chance? A little tougher call but seems to me that neither of you are playing. You are not playing. You have not purchased a ticket. Your friend is not playing as he/she although purchasing a ticket gave it away.

Has either of you taken a risk to gain an advantage? You certainly have risk nothing and the friend has spent a dollar for a gift, hardly a risk.

Have either of you engaged in reckless or hazardous behavior? No

Has either one wagered anything? You haven't your friend hasn't. The friend has given you a gift.

Has either been exposed to a hazard or risk? No

Have either bet or wagered? Not really

Have either risk anything of value on an uncertain outcome? Not unless you consider a dollar really valuable>

I think the case can be made that no gambling has been done by you or your friend.

The church does accept tithing on sweepstakes winnings i.e. Readers Digest, Publishers Clearinghouse and there is just as much paid in postage costs on a couple of entries as on a lottery ticket given/received as a gift.

How does the reasoning above square with the Church's stance as expressed in Handbook 2 (21.1.19)

"The Church opposes gambling in any form, including government-sponsored lotteries"

It seems very clear that we should just stay away.

[ERayR]

How does the reasoning above square with the Church's stance as expressed in Handbook 2 (21.1.19)

"The Church opposes gambling in any form, including government-sponsored lotteries"

It seems very clear that we should just stay away.

Again I think I just made the case that the OP scenario was not gambling. I might go so far as to say a dollar falls below the threshold of having enough value as to be classified as a gamble. However, some deem it ok to drink decaf coffee or iced coffee so each will have to make their own judgements call on this one. By the way I have lost several very large fortunes in the lottery. It several times has gone to several hundreds of millions of dollars and I have not had a ticket.

[ksfisher]

Again I think I just made the case that the OP scenario was not gambling. I might go so far as to say a dollar falls below the threshold of having enough value as to be classified as a gamble. However, some deem it ok to drink decaf coffee or iced coffee so each will have to make their own judgements call on this one. By the way I have lost several very large fortunes in the lottery. It several times has gone to several hundreds of millions of dollars and I have not had a ticket.

"including government-sponsored lotteries" seems clear that we should stay away from lotteries. We shouldn't be worried whether the church will accept our tithing on lottery winnings since we shouldn't be participating in an activity that the church opposes. I don't think it matters whether I bought the ticket, I was given the ticket, or if I found it on the street. If I stand with the church then I also oppose gambling and lotteries in any form.

[The Grimace]

How does the reasoning above square with the Church's stance as expressed in Handbook 2 (21.1.19)

"The Church opposes gambling in any form, including government-sponsored lotteries"

It seems very clear that we should just stay away.

Then what should we think of this article on lds.org, featuring an LDS family raising $1,000,000 for charity:

http://www.lds.org/c...=eng&country=ca

They did it by selling 50/50 tickets (you buy a ticket, if you win, you keep half of the money raised through ticket sales) at hockey games:

http://canucks.nhl.c...s.htm?id=625662

While not a ringing endorsement of gambling, I'd suggest this shows the Church isn't violently opposed to gambling, either.

What say you?

[ksfisher]

Then what should we think of this article on lds.org, featuring an LDS family raising $1,000,000 for charity:

http://www.lds.org/c...=eng&country=ca

They did it by selling 50/50 tickets (you buy a ticket, if you win, you keep half of the money raised through ticket sales) at hockey games:

http://canucks.nhl.c...s.htm?id=625662

While not a ringing endorsement of gambling, I'd suggest this shows the Church isn't violently opposed to gambling, either.

What say you?

I guess I'm beat. I'll cut that paragraph out of my handbook.

[ERayR]

"including government-sponsored lotteries" seems clear that we should stay away from lotteries. We shouldn't be worried whether the church will accept our tithing on lottery winnings since we shouldn't be participating in an activity that the church opposes. I don't think it matters whether I bought the ticket, I was given the ticket, or if I found it on the street. If I stand with the church then I also oppose gambling and lotteries in any form.

Then that is the path you should take.

[Erin15]

While not a ringing endorsement of gambling, I'd suggest this shows the Church isn't violently opposed to gambling, either.

What say you?

I don't think the problem is so much whether or not money changed hands, or risk was taken, nor do I think it's about how strongly the church is or is not against it.

I think it has everything to do with where you stand. To me, being LDS means not participating in the unclean things of the world. It means not setting up your tent with the door facing Sodom. It means not looking back when you walk away from worldliness.

We stand apart from the spirit of gambling, and we avoid the appearance of it.

Some people may think it is okay to dip a toe or two into unclean waters, but I think we all know that one day we'll have to stand in judgement and look God in the face and I can't imagine him accepting loopholes.

[The Grimace]

I don't think the problem is so much whether or not money changed hands, or risk was taken, nor do I think it's about how strongly the church is or is not against it.

I think it has everything to do with where you stand. To me, being LDS means not participating in the unclean things of the world. It means not setting up your tent with the door facing Sodom. It means not looking back when you walk away from worldliness.

We stand apart from the spirit of gambling, and we avoid the appearance of it.

Some people may think it is okay to dip a toe or two into unclean waters, but I think we all know that one day we'll have to stand in judgement and look God in the face and I can't imagine him accepting loopholes.

But....how does the church stand apart from the spirit of gambling and avoid the appearance of it when the articles I posted above were about an LDS family who raised charitable funds by promoting gambling? And, if the church stands against gambling in any form, how is it justified in publishing this story on it's website?

[ERayR]

Some people may think it is okay to dip a toe or two into unclean waters, but I think we all know that one day we'll have to stand in judgement and look God in the face and I can't imagine him accepting loopholes.

But that is the choice that each must make on a personal level.