Does D&C 76:112 Prove That There'S No Advancement Between Kingdoms?

[inquiringmind]

Doctrine and Covenants 76:109-112.

But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as ^ainnumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore...And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall ^aconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; For they shall be judged according to their ^aworks, and every man shall receive according to his own ^bworks, his own ^cdominion, in the ^dmansions which are prepared; And they shall be ^aservants of the Most High; but ^bwhere God and Christ ^cdwell they ^dcannot come, ^eworlds without end.

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/112#112

Does the last part of verse 112 provethat there's no advancement between kingdoms?

[Calm]

I wouldn't claim that it "proves" it though it can be read that way. I know too many well read, well informed in scripture and church doctrine, intelligent individuals who believe there is advancement between kingdoms to insist that it can only be interpreted in the one way.

Certainly if they choose to remain as they are remain in their relationship to God, they will remain as servants. The question is however if they can choose to repent and accept the fullness of gifts of the Lord after having chosen a partial fulfillment, if that choice is a final choice or seen instead as a choice of where they desire to begin on their journey as opposed to the end of it.

[Stargazer]

Whether it proves it? Hmmm, maybe. Maybe not. Sounds like I'm waffling, and I am.

I don't think it is at all important whether it is or it isn't. At least at this point in our existences. What difference does it make to you in the here and now? Not a bit. It's an academic issue.

What matters most is that Jesus is Lord, He died to make men holy, those who would take advantage of His sacrifice. Whether or not there is advancement between the kingdoms is irrelevant.

[inquiringmind]

I wouldn't claim that it "proves" it though it can be read that way. I know too many well read, well informed in scripture and church doctrine, intelligent individuals who believe there is advancement between kingdoms to insist that it can only be interpreted in the one way.

Certainly if they choose to remain as they are remain in their relationship to God, they will remain as servants. The question is however if they can choose to repent and accept the fullness of gifts of the Lord after having chosen a partial fulfillment, if that choice is a final choice or seen instead as a choice of where they desire to begin on their journey as opposed to the end of it.

Thank you.

But what about D&C 132:17?

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

If these "angels" remain "separately and singly, without exaltation, forever and ever," doesn't that prove that there's no further progress or advancement for them?

Edited February 24, 2012 by inquiringmind

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I think the point is that if, at any time in all the eternities, you refuse to progress in some way, then you will have made the choice to be in a stagnant place forever and ever. Until you choose to change. It's conditional. I think there is progression between Kingdoms; I think eternal progression is real, but only if we choose it.

[inquiringmind]

I think the point is that if, at any time in all the eternities, you refuse to progress in some way, then you will have made the choice to be in a stagnant place forever and ever. Until you choose to change. It's conditional. I think there is progression between Kingdoms; I think eternal progression is real, but only if we choose it.

Thank you.

[Maidservant]

This is not scriptural but, I look at this example. (Nor do I think it is meant to be an example of all things, but it is an interesting and helpful thought to me.) Here in our existence in some societies we have high school, and a young person is meant to progress through the grades of school and complete a diploma, and if she does, then she is in order and is prepared to participate fully in further activities of society. Now if someone did not attend school or otherwise did not get a diploma, there is some consequence to that, and life becomes a little more difficult. However, is this person barred from actually learning? Anyone can learn. If they did not learn it in high school, they can go find that later. Also in the U.S. a person can get a GED diploma later, and when they do that, that helps immensely. Now, again, I cannot say that this is like the kingdoms exactly because it is an earthly example applied to eternal things, but it does show that it is possible to "miss out" on something you were meant to enjoy (a diploma) but still be able to substantially correct that and continue to obtain (lifelong learning).

[Maidservant]

Also, I want to say that the plan of salvation is not a story, nor is heavenly Father some supernatural being, nor, hm, I don't know how to put my idea across as to what this whole plan and experience is not.

What it IS, is easier to say.

This is a family. We have a Father who loves us beyond measure. Can you imagine your earthly father marching you off to certain towns or houses he assigned to you based on how you acted in your childhood in his house? Can you imagine your earthly father even being able to tell you what to do after you reached adulthood?

So why do we assign such 2-D ideas to our Father in heaven, a Man who has reached the culmination of all that is glorious and love in the potential of a human being?

Culturally speaking, paradigm speaking, historically speaking . . . when we wanted a God who sent us to heaven or hell, then we had that God. When we want a God that divided us into three kingdoms, we have that God. When we are able to see a God who is our Father and who will labor with us at all times and at all costs (and indeed we become that person too), then we can have that God.

Obviously, there are many people on earth who have done heinous and oppressive acts. What the consequences are to their eternal progression is very serious and may have an effect that cannot be overcome. I do not know. It seems from many scriptures that this is so.

But for the majority of people in existence, they have done their best, and I think all things are possible for them in eternity.

[Deborah]

But for the majority of people in existence, they have done their best, and I think all things are possible for them in eternity.

This may be true but I always wonder about the resurrected body. We are resurrected with a body to meet the conditions of that kingdom. So what happens to the resurrected body. There are bodies Celestial, and bodies Terrestrial, etc.

[Kenngo1969]

This may be true but I always wonder about the resurrected body. We are resurrected with a body to meet the conditions of that kingdom. So what happens to the resurrected body. There are bodies Celestial, and bodies Terrestrial, etc.

If I have a Telestial body now, I can always work out in an effort eventually to turn it into a Celestial body!

Edited February 24, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Rob Osborn]

Doctrine and Covenants 76:109-112.

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/112#112

Does the last part of verse 112 provethat there's no advancement between kingdoms?

I would suggest that we can't be sure of the meaning here. Several things to consider here. The first thing is that we live in the telestial kingdom right now. So is it speaking of us? Could very well be. So what is meant by "worlds without end"? Is this a time designation or reference or a physical place reference? Where does God dwell? On 'worlds without end. Also to consider is the fact that the telestial kingdom spoken of in section 76 has a brief description of the sons of perdition who live in the telestial kingdom. This is a bit of a contradiction though because the sons of perdition are not found in the kingdom of heaven. Only when we consider that the kingdom referenced here is speaking of our very world we now live on, does it make any sense. The section starts out by a question Joseph Smith asked about the resurrection of the just and the unjust. There are only two groups. Of note here is that it speaks of the ungodly as typified as those coming forth in the unjust resurrection which are the sons of perdition. The "just" however are only mentioned as the celestial beings and the only ones who come forth in the resurrection of the "just". No mention is made of either the telestial or terrestril being resurrected, it only mentions them as almost a sidenote.

The temple shows us the complete plan of salvation. There, it is shown to us that we all progress from the telestial kingdom to the terrestrial kingdom and from the terrestrial kingdom to the celestial kingdom. We know that when Christ comes the earth will be quickened to a terrestria glory and all the bodies on th eearth will also be quickened to a terrestrial glory. We do not attain our celestial glory at this point, even if we are resurrected beings on the earth with Christ at this time. It is only after the millennium that the earth and all of us will recieve our celestial glory. If you will note in section 76 that it speaks of Christ perfecting the kingdom and presenting it spotless to the Father while all his enemies (sons of perdition) are under his foot. Note here is that Christ is not presenting "kingdoms" but rather the kingdom (singular) with all of the inhabitants to be spotless and pure in Gods presence and be crowned with celestial glory.

Also to think about is this- we know that terrestrial beings reside with Christ during the millennium. We know that a lot of these individuals are those who rejected the gospel in their mortal lives but then repented in the spirit world and accepted the gospel in its fulness there. After being resurrected at the beginning of the millennium, they remain on earth to work with Christ in perffecting the kingdom. At the end of the millennium Christ presents these as "spotless" to the Father to be accpeted into the celestial kingdom. Christ isn't kicking these off to go live on another world.

[altersteve]

The first thing is that we live in the telestial kingdom right now.

The Lord said that the glory of the telestial kingdom is far beyond anything we can imagine, so I disagree with this.

[JAHS]

Here are some opinions from past church leaders:

Elder John A. Widtsoe once said"

"The question is frequently asked concerning three men placed in the three glories, can the one in the lower glory, by acceptable living in that glory, be transferred into the next glory, and the one in the middle glory move into the higher glory? If you will stop to think, you will see how utterly impossible that is. Growth, the basis of judgment, means greater power, greater strength. Those who are placed in the highest glory have greater power for, or a greater rate of, increase. They move at the rate of, say, fifty miles an hour, while those in the next glory move at twenty-five miles an hour; and those in the lower have power to move at only ten miles an hour. In the course of time, the one in the lower glory may reach the point that was occupied by the one in the higher, but then the one in the higher glory will be miles and miles ahead. Start three automobiles at the same time moving ten, twenty, and thirty miles an hour, and you will see that every second they are farther and farther apart, yet all are progressing." (Widtsoe, Evidences, p. 199.)

Spencer W. Kimball:

"After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, . . . he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. . . . That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right." (Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 109.)

Joseph F. Smith said:

"When we come forth out of the grave, . . . our spirits shall enter into [our physical bodies] again, and they shall become living souls. .

. . And then those who have . . . been subject and obedient to the celestial law will . . . be quickened by the celestial glory. And those who have . . . been subject and obedient to the terrestrial law will . . . be quickened by the terrestrial glory. And those who have . . . been subject and obedient to the telestial law, will . . . be quickened by a telestial glory." Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine)

Edited February 24, 2012 by JAHS

[guitarist]

I agree with Altersteve. Even in the temple endowment session this was meant to be likened unto the telestial world, not actually be the telestial world.

[LeSellers]

The first thing is that we live in the telestial kingdom right now.

We live in a "terrestrial world", not the "Terrestrial Kingdom". I suggest there is a qualitative difference between the phrases. I cannot recall a single instance of anyone with authority to do so calling this the Terrestrial Kingdom. I have been wrong, however, twice since breakfast.

Lehi

[Rob Osborn]

The Lord said that the glory of the telestial kingdom is far beyond anything we can imagine, so I disagree with this.

This earth enjoys the glory of the Holy ghostwhich is a glory thatsurpasses all understanding.

[BCSpace]

Does the last part of verse 112 provethat there's no advancement between kingdoms?

No. It only proves they cannot go to a higher degree while in that state. However, there is not word of another judgement, whereby they might eventually advance, either. An initial search on my part turns up no doctrine on this verse.

I tend to go with the opinion of the aforementioned Widtsoe. They can still advance, but never catch up to those who are ahead. I would also add my opinion that I believe such advancement is asymptotic, in other words, they will never actually achieve Godhood and be able to do the things Gods do.

Perhaps the closest verse to this view is "this life is the time to prepare to meet God".

Edited February 24, 2012 by BCSpace

[Rob Osborn]

I agree with Altersteve. Even in the temple endowment session this was meant to be likened unto the telestial world, not actually be the telestial world.

I disagree. The temple endowment suggests nothing other than this earth being the telestial kingdom. The wording is specific insaying this earth is the telestialkingdom/telestial world.

[Rob Osborn]

We live in a "terrestrial world", not the "Terrestrial Kingdom". I suggest there is a qualitative difference between the phrases. I cannot recall a single instance of anyone with authority to do so calling this the Terrestrial Kingdom. I have been wrong, however, twice since breakfast.

Lehi

U

How about a third time? Here

Account by Heber C. Kimball:

"The main room is divided into apartments for the ceremonies of the endowment. Beginning from the door at the West end is an all[e]y about 5 feet wide extending to about 3 feet beyond the first partitioned off where the saints receive the first part of the ceremony or where the man is created and a help mate given to him. From these rooms to the third partition in the Arch is planted the garden, which is nicely decorated and set off with shrubs and trees in pots and Boxes to represent the Garden of Eden. In this apartment is also an altar. Here the man and woman are placed and commandments are given to them in addition to what is given in the creation. Here also after the man and woman has eaten the forbidden fruit is given to them a charge at the Alter and the first and second tokens of the Aaronic Priesthood. They are then thrust out into a room which is dark being the one on the North side between the fourth and fifth division of the arch which represents the telestial kingdom or the world. Opposite to this is another apartment of the same size representing the terrestrial kingdom and between these two is an alley about 4 feet wide. In the telestial kingdom, after the man has proved himself faithful he receives the first signs and tokens of the Melchizedek priesthood and an additional charge. Here also he vouches for the conduct of his companion. They are then left to prove themselves faithful, after which they are admitted into the terrestrial kingdom, where at the alter they receive an additional charge and the second token of the Melchizedek Priesthood and also they key word on the five points of fellowship. There are words given with every token and the new name is given in the preparation room when they receive their washing and annointing. After received all the tokens and words and signs they are led to the vail where they give each to Eloheem through the vail and are then admitted into the Celestial Room."

(Source: Nauvoo Temple Journal, 11 December 1845, George D. Smith, ed., An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1991), p. 205; "On the day temple ordinances begin, Heber C. Kimball asks William Clayton to help him keep a record of Nauvoo temple-related activities." Ibid. p. 199.)

"Last evening an arrangement was made establishing better order in conducting the endowment. Under this order it is the province of Eloheem, Jehovah and Michael to create the world, plant the Garden and create the man and give his help meet. Eloheem gives the charge to Adam in the Garden and thrust them into the telestial kingdom or the world. Then Peter assisted by James and john conducts them through the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdom administering the charges and tokens in each and conducts them to the vail where they are received by the Eloheem and after taking with him by words and tokens are admitted by him into the Celestial Kingdom...."

(Source: Nauvoo Temple Journal, 13 December 1845, Ibid., p. 210.)

Edited February 24, 2012 by Rob Osborn

[altersteve]

I disagree. The temple endowment suggests nothing other than this earth being the telestial kingdom. The wording is specific insaying this earth is the telestialkingdom/telestial world.

Then why does the Lord say in the D&C that the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses all understanding?

[Rob Osborn]

Then why does the Lord say in the D&C that the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses all understanding?

Glory means light and truth. If one knew all the glory of this kingdom we now livein it would surpass all his understanding

[tomk]

I have thought a lot about my eternal fate. I can't imagine that these assignments to Telestial / Terrestrial will really be FOREVER. Even within our own Church, we have an imperfect understanding of what awaits us in the eternities.

I have often wondered about the following passage of scripture:

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again; WHY?

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

If you take verse 48 and change the wording to a POSITIVE expression, instead of a double negative, it reads like this:

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof,only those who are ordained unto this condemnation understand.

Which seems to suggest there IS an end to the misery. Outer darkness does not last forever. If outer darkness does not last forever, then there is hope, even for the Devil and his angels. Their punishment has an end.

I don't have the reference - but it has been suggested by some that the final fate of the Devil and his followers is that they will face total dissolution. They will continue to experience the chaos and entropy that they have chosen until they break down into the "intelligences" that they were before being organized by Heavenly Father. We are organized intelligences ... we are intelligences that were organized at some point. This is true of Jesus Christ just as much as it is true of Satan.

The Devil and his followers will be scooped up, organized into spirit bodies once again as children of God, and will have a chance to try it all over again - hopefully with better results.

This is kind of what I think will happen. Which means we all have hope of Eternal Exaltation...although some of us will take much longer to get there than others...and some of us will just simply not desire to live that life and will remain stuck (by our own choice).

[Freedom]

We existed for eons before we came here and the purpose to come here is to act out according to our passions. This is not a once in a life time opportunity to make it or break it, we prepared for this opportunity for an eternity and we were put in a situation to act out according to our nature. tomk gave a theory concerning the sons of perdition, but if we follow the doctrine that they will be eternally dammed, then why would they be cut off but those who were only marginally better?

If there is progression between kingdoms then it begs the question, what is the point of obeying any of the commandments? We can just live a life of wickedness and always take comfort that 5 billion years from now we can always change our ways and go on to eternal glory.

[mercyngrace]

If there is progression between kingdoms then it begs the question, what is the point of obeying any of the commandments? We can just live a life of wickedness and always take comfort that 5 billion years from now we can always change our ways and go on to eternal glory.

The point is that wickedness never was happiness.

The point is an escape from the living death and captivity that comes from failing to love God and love our neighbors - an escape available here and now, not 5 billion years from now.

Whenever I discuss the possibility of eternal progression with church members, 99% of the time the question arises, "Why then, don't we just eat, drink, and be merry knowing that eventually we will be alright?"

This tells me two things about the one posing the question.

First, they haven't been to hell. For if they had, they would know that "a few stripes" simply won't do to change the human heart and they would never trivialize the most exquisite of suffering by suggesting a procrastination of repentance.

Second, they haven't truly been born again. For if they had, they would never consider a wayward path even slightly alluring.

Edited February 25, 2012 by mercyngrace

[inquiringmind]

The point is that wickedness never was happiness

Yeah--why would you want to wast any time with wickedness, and put off your own real happiness for 5 billion years?

Second, they haven't truly been born again. For if they had, they would never consider a wayward path even slightly alluring

That reminds me of several passages in 1 John.

No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him (1 John 3:6.)

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19.)

No one born of God practices sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot practice sin because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9.)

Edited February 25, 2012 by inquiringmind