zerinus Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 So are you saying that repentance after death from sins is impossible? Repentance from sins is all that keeps us from entering back into the Father's kingdom. The scriptures speak about those who are clean and those who are filthy still. Those who are clean are admitted back into his presence while those who remain filthy still are cast out into outer darkness. Are you suggesting that men will find a level of uncleanliness and still be saved?We are talking about migration between kingdoms post resurrection, not in the spirit world.
mercyngrace Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 (edited) We are talking about migration between kingdoms post resurrection, not in the spirit world.No... We aren't.eta: At least, not in the way you seem to think. Edited February 27, 2012 by mercyngrace
Rob Osborn Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 We are talking about migration between kingdoms post resurrection, not in the spirit world.I believe one can gain in glory or degrees of glory post resurrection. Even the scriptures state that the saved will have glory added upon their heads forever and ever. My belief is in getting back to the basics of Christ's doctrine of there being just "one" kingdom. There is "one fold" that Christ is saving and presenting to the Father. At the final judgment (as we tend to call it) all men will be either on the right hand or the left- sheep or goats- wheat or tares. Do me a favor, look up and read everything you can in the scriptures about the labourer in the vinyard parable and the wheat and the tares. All of Christ's teachings are about those who come to him to be saved. Christ saves the kingdom as one singular group. That much needs to be established. Differing degrees of glory within that one kingdom is a separate issue. That one kingdom though is just one singular physical place- this earth.
mercyngrace Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Then you are misunderstanding those quotes. Every Mormon knows that salvation in Mormonism is not universal in that sense of the term. Jesus' Atonement is universal in the sense that it applies to everyone who can and wants to be saved. It is not applicable to those who choose not to be. God will not (cannot) save anyone against their will.A few points:1. You really should have read the quotes I've been posting throughout the thread, Z. So far as I know, Bruce R. McConkie was indeed a Mormon. President Harold B. Lee was one, too.Boyd K. Packer: Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee (1899–1973). Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918), and he said, “Listen to this!“ ‘Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.’ ” According to the definition you posted salvation means to be saved from both physical and spiritual death. Victory over the grave is already secured. So what is spiritual death that we must defeat before our workis finished? Spiritual death is separation from God.2. This has nothing to do with free will. No one has argued that God will force salvation upon anyone. The argument is that eventually everyone will choose salvation.Some people can't foresee how this will happen and given the state of this telestial world, I can understand that position. However, President Kimball (yet another Mormon) in a letter to a friend named John wrote this:President Kimball, "May I repeat, the time will come when there will be a surrender of every person who has ever lived on this earth, who is now living, or who ever will live on this earth; and it will be an unforced surrender, an unconditional surrender. When will it be for you? Today? In twenty years? Two hundred years? Two thousand or a million? When? Again, to you, John, I say, it is not if you will capitulate to the great truth; it is when, for I know that you cannot indefinitely resist the power and pressure of truth. Why not now? Much time has been lost. The years ahead can be far more glorious for you than any years in the past.(Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], 63.)I know you disagree with me and that's fine. That's what makes our discussions engaging. But you don't get to speak for "every Mormon" regardless of how convinced you are of your position.
Kenngo1969 Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Personally, I wish Dan Peterson, who has described himself as "something of a universalist" would expound on his views in this thread. Edited February 28, 2012 by Kenngo1969
inquiringmind Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) They do not conflict.References to the various kingdoms all precede the redemption described in vs. 106-108.How can the telestial kingdom proceed the redemption described in D&C 76:106-108, when verse 106-107 describes the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom as "they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under His feet, and shall have perfected His work; When He shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless...."?Verse 89 says that when Joseph and Sidney saw the glory of the telestial, it surpassed all understanding.And since hell is never described as a place or condition of glory, how can "the various kingdoms all precede the redemption described in vs. 106-108," if the telestial are in hell until Christ delivers up the kingdom (i.e. until "the redemption described in vs. 106-108")? Edited February 28, 2012 by inquiringmind
mfbukowski Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Nevermind. Edited February 28, 2012 by mfbukowski
zerinus Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 No... We aren't.Well, you do not appear to know what you are talking about at all! LOL
zerinus Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 A few points:1. You really should have read the quotes I've been posting throughout the thread, Z. So far as I know, Bruce R. McConkie was indeed a Mormon. President Harold B. Lee was one, too.Boyd K. Packer: Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee (1899–1973). Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918), and he said, “Listen to this!“ ‘Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.’ ” According to the definition you posted salvation means to be saved from both physical and spiritual death. Victory over the grave is already secured. So what is spiritual death that we must defeat before our workis finished? Spiritual death is separation from God.2. This has nothing to do with free will. No one has argued that God will force salvation upon anyone. The argument is that eventually everyone will choose salvation.Some people can't foresee how this will happen and given the state of this telestial world, I can understand that position. However, President Kimball (yet another Mormon) in a letter to a friend named John wrote this:President Kimball, "May I repeat, the time will come when there will be a surrender of every person who has ever lived on this earth, who is now living, or who ever will live on this earth; and it will be an unforced surrender, an unconditional surrender. When will it be for you? Today? In twenty years? Two hundred years? Two thousand or a million? When? Again, to you, John, I say, it is not if you will capitulate to the great truth; it is when, for I know that you cannot indefinitely resist the power and pressure of truth. Why not now? Much time has been lost. The years ahead can be far more glorious for you than any years in the past.(Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], 63.)I know you disagree with me and that's fine. That's what makes our discussions engaging. But you don't get to speak for "every Mormon" regardless of how convinced you are of your position.I still don't see how this support your argument, assuming you have a clear idea of what you are talking about, which I am not sure you do! The scriptures sometimes talk of salvation to mean exaltation, and sometimes to mean any of the three degrees of glory. So I don't see what you are trying to prove by giving those quotations.
mercyngrace Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Well, you do not appear to know what you are talking about at all! LOLAhh insults, the fallback position.Zerinus, had you read the thread, you would have known pages ago that I stated, and used quotes to substantiate, that my opinion is that resurrection is the culmination of our progress. A careful reading of Alma 40 shows that after the "space betwixt death and resurrection", there are only two groups left. The wicked, who are cast out of God's kingdom, and the righteous who shine forth therein. According to D&C 76 and 88, only the sons of perdition experience the second death or are sent away so all others are included in the righteous.Alma also explains that many misuse the term resurrection. Resurrection, he indicates, comes after judgement which comes after all that ministering and teaching we're going to be doing in this "space of time". If there are only two groups left at the end of this spirit world, sons of perdition and those who inherit the Kingdom of God, then the stratification of souls has largely, possibly entirely, come to an end.We begin to attain glory (light, truth, intelligence) in this life - even before - and just as happens here, like intelligences cleave unto one another. However, in the spirit world, we don't segregate, we serve. "Kingdom hopping" is a misnomer. We simply grow from grace to grace, just as Christ did, only at an individual pace as we learn to abide one set of laws and then another and then another. Are there telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms? Yup. We live in one right now.Are there telestial, terrestrial, and celestial glories? Yup. You surely know people right now who abide different laws and whose happiness, peace, and godliness reflect the law they abide.Is it all as black and white as grading test scores and relegating individuals to sit with people who scored the same? I don't think so.
inquiringmind Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Are there telestial, terrestrial, and celestial glories? Yup. You surely know people right now who abide different laws and whose happiness, peace, and godliness reflect the law they abide.Is there hell on earth? Yup.If mental torment can be as exquisite as the torment of a lake of fire, of course there's such a thing as hell on earth.Al Capone spent his last days having pathetic conversations with the dead victims of his criminal career, begging their forgiveness, and suffering from syphilis that was worsened by the experimental treatments (involving exposure to yellow fever, IIRC) that he had volunteered for in Alcatrez.But is there some glory in this that passes all understanding?That brings me back to my question.How can the telestial kingdom proceed the redemption described in D&C 76:106-108, when verse 106-107 describes the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom as "they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under His feet, and shall have perfected His work; When He shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless...."?Verse 89 says that when Joseph and Sidney saw the glory of the telestial, it surpassed all understanding.And since hell is never described as a place or condition of glory, how can "the various kingdoms all precede the redemption described in vs. 106-108," if the telestial are in hell until Christ delivers up the kingdom (i.e. until "the redemption described in vs. 106-108")?Unless Capone's hellish torment contains some telestial glory (a glory that surpasses all understanding?), when exactly will he experience this telestial glory?D&C 76:106-8 seems to say that his hell will continue until the very end of God's plan, and you're saying that he'll be a celestial when it's over, so when will he be a telestial (with the glory of the telestial, as opposed to the torments of hell, or the glories of the celestial)? Edited February 28, 2012 by inquiringmind
mercyngrace Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Unless Capone's hellish torment contains some telestial glory (a glory that surpasses all understanding?), when exactly will he experience this telestial glory?He will experience telestial glory in the Celestial Kingdom, where there are three degrees.
inquiringmind Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 He will experience telestial glory in the Celestial Kingdom, where there are three degrees.Thank you.
inquiringmind Posted February 29, 2012 Author Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) He will experience telestial glory in the Celestial Kingdom, where there are three degrees.If you're right, in what sense will Christ have "perfected His work" (D&C 76:106) before everyone in the Celestial kingdom achieves their highest glory?(Wont they need Christ's help to progress there?) Edited February 29, 2012 by inquiringmind
mercyngrace Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) If you're right, in what sense will Christ have "perfected His work" (D&C 76:106) before everyone in the Celestial kingdom achieves their highest glory?(Wont they need Christ's help to progress there?)Each member of the Godhead performs distinct but overlapping roles.Christ justifies us. It is through His atonement that we are absolved from guilt, resurrected and found salvageable (for lack of a better word). His primary task is to overcome death and hell and to reconcile all things to the Father.The Holy Ghost sanctifies us. It is His role to purify us through repeated exposure to the light and truth He distills upon our hearts and minds. His primary task is to teach us.The Father exalts us. It is His role to receive us into His kingdom and bestow an inheritance upon of His sons and daughters as they are prepared to receive it.Each member of the Godhead is present at the "gate" of the celestial kingdom. Father, veil (Hebrews 10:20), and witness (1 John5).Once Christ presents us and the Spirit testifies that we are prepared to "enter", Christ's work is perfected. His enemies subdued. Christ did not exalt Himself. The Father did that. (Philippians 2:9) In fact, He couldn't exalt Himself for those who do so are abased.There are symbols throughout the scriptures that represent these varying roles - water, spirit, blood - and there are laws that pertain to each step along the path.In the temple, we use symbolic actions to represent this line upon line progression and symbolic words to remind us of which member of the Godhead governs which kingdom and fulfills which role.It's fascinating, IM, you need to go ahead and get baptized so we can speak more freely Edited February 29, 2012 by mercyngrace
mfbukowski Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 Each member of the Godhead performs distinct but overlapping roles.Christ justifies us. It is through His atonement that we are absolved from guilt, resurrected and found salvageable (for lack of a better word). His primary task is to overcome death and hell and to reconcile all things to the Father.The Holy Ghost sanctifies us. It is His role to purify us through repeated exposure to the light and truth He distills upon our hearts and minds. His primary task is to teach us.The Father exalts us. It is His role to receive us into His kingdom and bestow an inheritance upon of His sons and daughters as they are prepared to receive it.Each member of the Godhead is present at the "gate" of the celestial kingdom. Father, veil (Hebrews 10:20), and witness (1 John5).Once Christ presents us and the Spirit testifies that we are prepared to "enter", Christ's work is perfected. His enemies subdued. Christ did not exalt Himself. The Father did that. (Philippians 2:9) In fact, He couldn't exalt Himself for those who do so are abased.There are symbols throughout the scriptures that represent these varying roles - water, spirit, blood - and there are laws that pertain to each step along the path.In the temple, we use symbolic actions to represent this line upon line progression and symbolic words to remind us of which member of the Godhead governs which kingdom and fulfills which role.It's fascinating, IM, you need to go ahead and get baptized so we can speak more freely Great post!
inquiringmind Posted February 29, 2012 Author Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Thank you Cate (and Mark.) Edited February 29, 2012 by inquiringmind
Rob Osborn Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 All good stuff. I was just wanting to chip in one other thing. The work of Christ is to cleanse the world from sin. Everyone who he saves will thus be cleansed from their sins and able to abide the Fathers presence being free from sin.
georged Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 According to the statements in the "Discourses of Brigham Young" and some statements from other prohets, it is possible. As Brigham Young states: "Gods judgements are godlike." I have learned from over 45 years of studing Mormon doctrine very seriously that one has to be very careful in reading the scriptures, and if their is a coice between them and what the prophets teach, go with what the prophets teach! A good example of this is that D&C states that if a repentant adulterer offends again, he is not to be forgiven. However, the church and God will forgive again. In fact, how many of those have had their priesthood blessings resored again (see D&C 19)!
Cobalt-70 Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I haven't read every post in this thread, but I wonder if anyone has quoted what George Q. Cannon said in 1898 as a member of the First Presidency:"There are different degrees of glory. Some attain to a more exalted glory. They must help those who are lower to rise up to their plane. Then there is another degree below them, and they must labor to lift those who are lower than they. Thus we can go on, every man in his sphere and in his glory endeavoring to lift up others to his height, until eternity will be filled with our labors in this direction; progressing from one degree of glory to another, without end, because there is no end to eternity, no end to glory. ...This will be our heaven..., and we shall go on from one degree of perfection to another, advancing as our Father in heaven advances, for there is progress for our father and for our Lord Jesus. There is no such thing as standing still in the eternal work of our God. It is endless progress, progressing from one degree of knowledge to another degree." http://books.google....AAYAAJ&pg=PA117I see D&C 76 as one iteration in Joseph Smith's march toward increasing universalism. D&C 76 was written in 1832, which is still very early in Mormon history. Smith's theology started out in the Book of Mormon pretty anti-universalist. But already by D&C 19 (1830), he began to introduce universalist elements to the faith, and by D&C 76 he had established a pretty universalist theology, where every soul (except sons of perdition) inherits at least some degree of heavenly glory. But that was not the final word. Baptism for the dead came in the late 1830s, an idea which already contradicted D&C 76, which taught that righteous souls who were blinded by the "craftiness of men," but then later taught the Gospel while in the spirit world, were bound to the Terrestial kingdom.By the King Follett sermon, Smith was teaching, "All sins and all blasphemies--every transgression that man may be guilty of--shall be forgiven in this world or the world to come, except [the eternal sin]....Hence, God has made a provision that the spirits of our friends and every spirit in that eternal world can be ferreted out and saved, unless he has committed that unpardonable sin.... God has wrought out salvation for all men, unless they have committed a certain sin." However, Smith noted a bit later in the sermon that "There are many who die in the world who must wait many myriads of years before they can receive [celestial glory]." So I read this as indicating that by the end of his life, Smith had adopted what is essentially a full universalism, so that almost everybody will at some point achieve celestial glory. Edited March 20, 2012 by Cobalt-70 1
inquiringmind Posted March 19, 2012 Author Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Baptism for the dead came in the late 1830s, an idea which already contradicted D&C 76, which taught that righteous souls who were blinded by the "craftiness of men," but then later taught the Gospel while in the spirit world, were bound to the Telestial kingdom.Don't you mean the "Terrestrial" kingdom? Edited March 19, 2012 by inquiringmind
Cobalt-70 Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 Don't you mean the "Terrestrial" kingdom?Yes. Thanks for the correction.
georged Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 I will state that there are no limitations to anyone who has truly repented with all his heart and paid all the required penalties for his sins. The prophet Brigham Youing stated that some people had preached some in hell forever, but that you would never hear him state that! He further stated that there would always be a hell since there would always be those who needed to go there, but that that did not mean that someone would have to stay there forever, and that God judgements were godlike. The problem with the sons of perdition is that it is almost impossible for them to repent due to their "hardness" in evil and the lack of righteous influences there. However, all things are possible with God if the prior conditions are met (see S&C 19)!
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