Does D&C 76:112 Prove That There'S No Advancement Between Kingdoms?

[wenglund]

Aren't you grateful for the scriptures, which make things so much clearer?

I, personally, am glad the scriptures aren't all that clear because the lack of clarity causes me to work harder to comprehend, and the extra effort tends to pay off in greater insights and more in-depth understanding.

I am also glad because it helps keep my mind open and humble--call it dogma and creedal avoidance.

Having been exposed for the first time here to a different way of interpreting various passages of scriptures, I am not sure if I have been entirely sold on the new interpretations, but my soul has been expanded through giving it thoughtful consideration rather than dismissing it out of hand. In a way, another layer or perspective about the hereafter has been opened to my eyes, and I appreciate Cate and others for bringing it to my attention.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[zerinus]

I'm not. I addressed that specifically.

I wasn't aware that you did actually.

[zerinus]

I, personally, am glad the scriptures aren't all that clear because the lack of clarity causes me to work harder to comprehend, and the extra effort tends to pay off in greater insights and more in-depth understanding.

I am also glad because it helps keep my mind open and humble--call it dogma and creedal avoidance.

Having been exposed for the first time here to a different way of interpreting various passages of scriptures, I am not sure if I have been entirely sold on the new interpretations, but my soul has been expanded through giving it thoughtful consideration rather than dismissing it out of hand. In a way, another layer or perspective about the hereafter has been opened to my eyes, and I appreciate Cate and others for bringing it to my attention.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Sorry Wade, but the scriptures vs. the Penrose quote, there is no contest.

[mercyngrace]

Sorry Wade, but the scriptures vs. the Penrose quote, there is no contest.

You know, dead prophets and apostles have their place, as do the scriptures....

Elder McConkie explained: “Eternal life is life in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is exaltation; it is the name of the kind of life God lives. It consists of a continuation of the family unity in eternity. . . . children will be saved in the celestial kingdom. Salvation means eternal life; the two terms are synonymous; they mean exactly the same thing. Joseph Smith said, ‘Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.’ ( Lectures on Faith, pp. 63–67.) We have come to speak of this salvation as exaltation—which it is—but all of the scriptures in all of the standard works call it salvation. I know of only three passages in all our scriptures which use salvation to mean something other and less than exaltation.” (D&C Institute Manual)

How about living prophets?

Now, before we leave today, may I share with you my love for the Savior and for His great atoning sacrifice for us. In three weeks’ time the entire Christian world will be celebrating Easter. I believe that none of us can conceive the full import of what Christ did for us in Gethsemane, but I am grateful every day of my life for His atoning sacrifice in our behalf. At the last moment, He could have turned back. But He did not. He passed beneath all things that He might save all things. In doing so, He gave us life beyond this mortal existence. He reclaimed us from the Fall of Adam. To the depths of my very soul, I am grateful to Him. He taught us how to live. He taught us how to die. He secured our salvation. ~ President Thomas S. Monson, April 2011 GC

Secured. Past tense.

Christ didn't go to the cross on a gamble and when He said "It is finished" ...

... He meant it.

[Zeta-Flux]

Here are the strongest arguments I've heard from both sides. (Some of these arguments have appeared on this thread. But I hope to phrase them a little more succinctly.)

Against Kingdom Hopping:

There are scriptures like D&C 76:122 and D&C 132:17 which, in their plain meaning, imply that there cannot be an increase. Alma 11:45 teaches that the resurrection is permanent, and Joseph Smith and others have taught there are no more probations. The scriptures speak of being resurrected with a body of a certain glory. Many prophets and apostles have also given it as their opinion (or as official teaching) that there is no kingdom hopping.

For Kingdom Hopping:

There are just a few quotes from apostles and others suggesting one could jump kingdoms. For example, Hyrum Smith talked about how the terrestrial glory is likened to the moon, and as the moon waxes and wanes so too can people there go up to the next kingdom, or down to the lower kingdom. Some interpret Brigham's Adam-God doctrine as implying that we will continually be in a cycle of being Adam's on new worlds. Less unorthodox is the use of D&C 19 to justify that the language in D&C 76 and 132 could perhaps be interpreted in another light (although I think this case is hard to make for D&C 132). For example, they might say that D&C 132:17 is talking about those who remain angels, but claim that one could choose to stop being an angel and then could be enlarged to a greater glory. They use the doctrine of "work for the dead" to suggest that similarly, change is still possible later on. Finally, the phrase "worlds without end" was used by Brigham Young (and others) in a way that does not mean "forever" but in fact had a completely different connotation. [brigham also taught that sons of perdition would be "recycled", but I don't consider that kingdom hopping as the personality of such beings is totally destroyed.]

If anyone thinks I've missed an essential point, let me know. I personally am against kingdom hopping. I find the scriptures clear, but I also stand with Wade in that I'm open to further light on the subject.

[mercyngrace]

Zeta-flux,

I wouldn't call it kingdom-hopping because I think, as is taught in the temple - the height of orthodoxy, that we progress through kingdoms as we acquire light and knowledge.

There is a fundamental difference between progressing to resurrection and being resurrected into a glorified body never again to have spirit and flesh (or whatever) separated and then progressing.

I believe in the former not the latter.

MnG

[Zeta-Flux]

mercyngrace,

I agree that your view is not kingdom-hopping. I didn't address it because it is a unique teaching; one which before this thread I had never heard. But I can try to address it now. Let me see if I can first sum up your main points. Correct any if they are wrong.

1. In the resurrection there are no telestial nor terrestrial glories. There are only the celestial and the sons of perdition.

2. One justification for this is you equate salvation with exaltation (by providing references from apostles and prophets).

3. Another (if I'm remembering right) is that someone said all saved inherit this earth.

Anything else I'm missing?

[mercyngrace]

mercyngrace,

I agree that your view is not kingdom-hopping. I didn't address it because it is a unique teaching; one which before this thread I had never heard. But I can try to address it now. Let me see if I can first sum up your main points. Correct any if they are wrong.

1. In the resurrection there are no telestial nor terrestrial glories. There are only the celestial and the sons of perdition.

2. One justification for this is you equate salvation with exaltation (by providing references from apostles and prophets).

3. Another (if I'm remembering right) is that someone said all saved inherit this earth.

Anything else I'm missing?

I'll address each point in turn:

1. Glory refers to the level of light and knowledge (think temple: covenant keeping) we are able to abide. It also refers to the kind of body we inherit in the resurrection. So we may have a telestial or terrestrial glory and still live in the celestial kingdom. This is how the parents of children who are wayward are promised that their children will be with them even if they are telestial and suffer the buffetings of Satan. We all inhabit the celestial kingdom - this sphere.

2. Not just quotes from church leaders - D&C actually uses the exact same teminology to equate salvation and eternal life (I provided those scriptures earlier some pages back.) This is absolutely doctrinal.

3. Again, this is not just from Elder Penrose, it comes from D&C 88 and John's vision in Revelation. All the saved inhabitants (all but sons of perdition who suffer second death) inherit the earth. Our bodies are quickened to the glory we can bear but inferior beings can be in the presence of superior beings so long as they are cleansed from sin, which we all will be at that point. We know these beings can abide together because angels dwell in the presence of God - also doctrinal - straight out of the scriptures.

Where this eventually leads is to the possibility that all celestial kingdom inhabitants may one day be exalted because progression within a kingdom (IIRC) is commonly taught doctrine, though I don't remember the genesis of that teaching.

Now that may or may not be what happens but it stands to reason that if we all end up in the CK and progression within that kingdom exists, there are endless possibilities.

Ultimately, what it comes to down to is whether I believe God can, in fact, accomplish the work He set out to accomplish.

Perhaps, as some believe, He will prove unable.

I, for one, cannot close the door to the possibility that He will be successful.

Edited February 27, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Zeta-Flux]

Okay, let me rephrase. Again correct me if I got it wrong.

1. There will be different glories, but all glories will inherit the celestial kingdom.

2. Salvation and eternal life are the same thing.

3. All saved inherit the earth.

Just a quick question. You say: "Where this eventually leads is to the possibility that all celestial beings may one day be exalted because progression within a kingdom (IIRC) is commonly taught doctrine, though I don't remember the genesis of that teaching." I'm not sure I understand. Just as the scriptures teach that salvation and eternal life are the same thing, so too eternal life and exaltation are the same things. Is that not right?

[Rob Osborn]

14 And ^adeath and ^bhell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the ^csecond death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(New Testament | Revelation 20:14 - 15)

Just curious but if ones name is written in the lambs book of life, doesn't he have an inheritance in the holy city (celestial kingdom)?

[mercyngrace]

Just a quick question. You say: "Where this eventually leads is to the possibility that all celestial beings may one day be exalted because progression within a kingdom (IIRC) is commonly taught doctrine, though I don't remember the genesis of that teaching." I'm not sure I understand. Just as the scriptures teach that salvation and eternal life are the same thing, so too eternal life and exaltation are the same things. Is that not right?

Yes - exaltation and eternal life are the same.

I'm not sure where the teaching originated that there is progression within a kingdom. But if that is accurate, there would be no reason to assume that progression would cease. We are talking about people who are all now "spotless" (D&C 76) and who have acknowledged Christ as their Savior (Pres. Kimball said all would unconditionally surrender, it's just a matter of when.) There is no reason to presume regression would occur, so what we are left with is stagnation or progression. If progression is a possibility, and only exalted beings can experience a fullness of joy (D&C 93, see D&C Institute manual for section 138 for more quotes to that end) then it stands to reason that all beings would pursue that level of happiness.

It doesn't make sense that someone in these conditions would opt not to follow the path of Christ if that possibility exists.

This is why Joseph Smith taught that one must become a son of perdition in this life and cannot become a SOP in the next. Once we are free from sin, healed from our brokenness, reconciled to God and our fellowmen, we are no longer of a mind to 'deny the sun shines while it is noon day'. At that point, we want to bask in its light!

Another consideration - if God were to impose infinite punishment for finite sins, would He be perfectly just? Or would He cease to be God?

[mercyngrace]

14 And ^adeath and ^bhell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the ^csecond death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(New Testament | Revelation 20:14 - 15)

Just curious but if ones name is written in the lambs book of life, doesn't he have an inheritance in the holy city (celestial kingdom)?

I read a fun quote that might apply some time back - let me look for it...

edit: Found it! It's from lesson 40 of the Teachings of the Presidents Brigham Young manual we used in RS/PH a couple of years back.

The names of every son and daughter of Adam are already written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Is there ever a time when they will be taken out of it? Yes, when they become sons of perdition, and not till then. Every person has the privilege of retaining it there for ever and ever. If they neglect that privilege, then their names will be erased, and not till then. All the names of the human family are written there, and the Lord will hold them there until they come to the knowledge of the truth, that they can rebel against him, and can sin against the Holy Ghost; then they will be thrust down to hell, and their names be blotted out from the Lamb’s Book of Life (DBY, 387–88).

edit: Now when we go to D&C 76:68, we see that celestial beings are those whose names are written in the book of life - which would be everyone except for SOPs. Is that where you were leading, Rob?

Edited February 27, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Zeta-Flux]

mercyngrace,

There are some aspects of your theory that I agree with, and some for which I currently favor over the alternative. For example, I agree with you that all sins, except denying the Holy Ghost, will eventually be forgiven. And by all, I mean all. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. I also like your idea that the three glories will be in the celestial kingdom. (Some have read the 3 degrees scripture in a similar way.) I agree with the idea that the celestial will need to be completely prepared before they are resurrected. I agree that the saved inherit the earth, and that the saved (in this instance) are the celestial people.

However, on the "salvation=eternal life" front, we part ways. In some instances salvation means eternal life. In others it does not. The scriptures are not uniform on how the word salvation is used. Similarly, we are taught that the name Jehovah is the name of the premortal savior; but again the scriptures are not uniform in this usage. Sometimes the name refers to the Father.

Furthermore, there are numerous scriptures which talk about people being in a saved state without exaltation. See D&C 132:17 for example. Thus, in that use of the word saved, salvation does not equal eternal life. Similarly, in D&C 76:44 it says the Lord saves all except the sons of perdition, and then in verse 76 is says the terrestrial do not receive of the fulness and in verse 79 it says they do not receive the crown. They are not exalted. They do not receive eternal life (i.e. God's life), and yet they are saved.

Others have brought up D&C 88, about kingdoms and laws. The terrestrial cannot abide by a celestial law, which is why the celestial minister to them. etc...

Cheers,

Zeta-Flux

[mercyngrace]

Zeta-flux,

I completely understand your hesitation. My understanding has been evolving over time and so I can honestly say that every objection that has been raised, I have raised myself at some point. There is so much that we don't know and given that, I prefer to err on the side of mercy,

Even the McConkie quote I provided about salvation being synonymous with exaltation concedes that there are three references he (McConkie) saw where the words were used with different meanings. I wish he'd listed those ... I'd like to understand better his line of thought.

I hope I'm not coming across as strident - that isn't my intent at all. This is one of those topics, like the atonement, that I get so excited about. The mere possibility that the good news is even better than we think is simply thrilling to me. I fills me with wonder and awe beyond what I could possibly describe.

(And I appreciate your patient willingness to let me go on and on and on and on.... )

[Rob Osborn]

I read a fun quote that might apply some time back - let me look for it...

edit: Found it! It's from lesson 40 of the Teachings of the Presidents Brigham Young manual we used in RS/PH a couple of years back.

The names of every son and daughter of Adam are already written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Is there ever a time when they will be taken out of it? Yes, when they become sons of perdition, and not till then. Every person has the privilege of retaining it there for ever and ever. If they neglect that privilege, then their names will be erased, and not till then. All the names of the human family are written there, and the Lord will hold them there until they come to the knowledge of the truth, that they can rebel against him, and can sin against the Holy Ghost; then they will be thrust down to hell, and their names be blotted out from the Lamb’s Book of Life (DBY, 387–88).

That is what I have always believed. It never speaks of our names being added to the book only that they can be taken out/blotted out. Revelations which I posted in my last post speaks of the fate of those whose names are blotted out- they become sons of perdition. If we read further in Revelations, we come to see that if your name is retained in the book of life you have access to the holy city (celestial kingdom)

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall ^awalk in the light of it: and the ^bkings of the ^cearth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the ^agates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that ^adefileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's ^bbook of life.

(New Testament | Revelation 21:24 - 27)

[Rob Osborn]

edit: Now when we go to D&C 76:68, we see that celestial beings are those whose names are written in the book of life - which would be everyone except for SOPs. Is that where you were leading, Rob?

Exactly!

[Rob Osborn]

What is not understood is that verses 50-70 of D&C 76 describes all that are saved at the end of the millennium. It is interesting that these verses are the explanation of the previous verses in the same section- verses 40-43 is the brief description of all the saved mentioned in those coming forth in the resurrection of the just mentioned in verses 50-70. Look at verses 40-43-

40 And this is the ^agospel, the glad ^btidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he ^acame into the world, even Jesus, to be ^bcrucified for the world, and to ^cbear the sins of the ^dworld, and to ^esanctify the world, and to ^fcleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be ^asaved whom the Father had put into his ^bpower and made by him;

43 Who ^aglorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of ^bperdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:40 - 43)

It speaks of the purpose of the "gospel" to save and cleanse all from unrighteousness. Now skip to verse 50 where it gives the testimony of those being saved in verses 40-43-

50 And again we bear record—for we ^asaw and heard, and this is the ^btestimony of the ^cgospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the ^djust—

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:50)

[zerinus]

You know, dead prophets and apostles have their place, as do the scriptures....

Elder McConkie explained: “Eternal life is life in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is exaltation; it is the name of the kind of life God lives. It consists of a continuation of the family unity in eternity. . . . children will be saved in the celestial kingdom. Salvation means eternal life; the two terms are synonymous; they mean exactly the same thing. Joseph Smith said, ‘Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.’ ( Lectures on Faith, pp. 63–67.) We have come to speak of this salvation as exaltation—which it is—but all of the scriptures in all of the standard works call it salvation. I know of only three passages in all our scriptures which use salvation to mean something other and less than exaltation.” (D&C Institute Manual)

How about living prophets?

Now, before we leave today, may I share with you my love for the Savior and for His great atoning sacrifice for us. In three weeks’ time the entire Christian world will be celebrating Easter. I believe that none of us can conceive the full import of what Christ did for us in Gethsemane, but I am grateful every day of my life for His atoning sacrifice in our behalf. At the last moment, He could have turned back. But He did not. He passed beneath all things that He might save all things. In doing so, He gave us life beyond this mortal existence. He reclaimed us from the Fall of Adam. To the depths of my very soul, I am grateful to Him. He taught us how to live. He taught us how to die. He secured our salvation. ~ President Thomas S. Monson, April 2011 GC

Secured. Past tense.

Christ didn't go to the cross on a gamble and when He said "It is finished" ...

... He meant it.

I don’t see how these quotes prove your point. The fact that you in your sense of fairness believe that in the eternities to come people should be able to progress from one kingdom to next; and whether God has actually revealed such a doctrine, or the Church teaches it, are two different things. Who knows, perhaps in the aeons of eternities to come, even the devil and his angels will be saved. But God hasn’t revealed that they will be. This is what God has revealed:

D&C 29:

28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

29 And now, behold, I say unto you, never at any time have I declared from mine own mouth that they should return, for where I am they cannot come, for they have no power.

30 But remember that all my judgments are not given unto men; . . .

D&C 76:

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

So for all we know, they may eventually be redeemed; but from my point of view, the idea of spending multiple aeons of eternities with the devil and his angels, in a state of torment that is so horrible that God in His mercy has chosen not to reveal the full extent of it to anyone, is as bad as not getting out at all! Who would want to take the risk? But the all important factor is that God has not told us, for a wise purpose. For the same reason He has not told us if migration between kingdoms are possible, in the eternities to come. He wants us to decide which kingdom we want to go to in this life, not in the next. If we miss our chance in this life, it will be too late to make that decision in the next. Feeling in your sense of fairness that migration between kingdoms should be possible; and portraying it as revealed truth are two different things. Guessing about gospel doctrine, and portraying that guesswork as revealed truth is never a good idea.

[mercyngrace]

Guessing about gospel doctrine, and portraying that guesswork as revealed truth is never a good idea.

Yeah. Maybe I should just compile all the quotes and scriptures and write a selective commentary.

President Hinckley (Oct 1982 GC)

We shall continue the great work that goes on in our temples, an unmatched work of love reaching out even to those who have gone beyond the veil of death. Can there be a greater labor of love than this? It comes more nearly of partaking of the spirit of the Lord himself, who gave his life as a vicarious sacrifice for all of us, than any other work of which I know. It is done in the name of him whose salvation is universal.

God bless all of us to open our eyes and to unstop our ears, to look, to listen, to learn, and to come to an understanding and appreciation of the great, eternal truths of which we bear witness, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[Rob Osborn]

He wants us to decide which kingdom we want to go to in this life, not in the next. If we miss our chance in this life, it will be too late to make that decision in the next.

So are you saying that repentance after death from sins is impossible? Repentance from sins is all that keeps us from entering back into the Father's kingdom. The scriptures speak about those who are clean and those who are filthy still. Those who are clean are admitted back into his presence while those who remain filthy still are cast out into outer darkness. Are you suggesting that men will find a level of uncleanliness and still be saved?

[mfbukowski]

Guys!

Pardon me for yelling, but I am going to anyway!

THE WORD "SALVATION" IS AMBIGUOUS IN AN LDS CONTEXT AND TO A LARGE EXTENT YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF THE SAME WORD.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

[wenglund]

Sorry Wade, but the scriptures vs. the Penrose quote, there is no contest.

Your presumption that there is a contest, begs the question.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 27, 2012 by wenglund

[mercyngrace]

Guys!

Pardon me for yelling, but I am going to anyway!

THE WORD "SALVATION" IS AMBIGUOUS IN AN LDS CONTEXT AND TO A LARGE EXTENT YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF THE SAME WORD.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

mfb,

I didn't think anyone was arguing. For my part, the mere exploration of the scriptures and quotes is just plain fun - whether or not we all agree. Here I was thinking this thread had miraculously avoided contention...

[zerinus]

Yeah. Maybe I should just compile all the quotes and scriptures and write a selective commentary.

President Hinckley (Oct 1982 GC)

We shall continue the great work that goes on in our temples, an unmatched work of love reaching out even to those who have gone beyond the veil of death. Can there be a greater labor of love than this? It comes more nearly of partaking of the spirit of the Lord himself, who gave his life as a vicarious sacrifice for all of us, than any other work of which I know. It is done in the name of him whose salvation is universal.

God bless all of us to open our eyes and to unstop our ears, to look, to listen, to learn, and to come to an understanding and appreciation of the great, eternal truths of which we bear witness, I humbly pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Then you are misunderstanding those quotes. Every Mormon knows that salvation in Mormonism is not universal in that sense of the term. Jesus' Atonement is universal in the sense that it applies to everyone who can and wants to be saved. It is not applicable to those who choose not to be. God will not (cannot) save anyone against their will.

Edited February 27, 2012 by zerinus

[Rob Osborn]

Guys!

Pardon me for yelling, but I am going to anyway!

THE WORD "SALVATION" IS AMBIGUOUS IN AN LDS CONTEXT AND TO A LARGE EXTENT YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF THE SAME WORD.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

It probably would be good to go over the definitions so we can discuss the matter with everyone on the same page in agreement. Here are both definitions that are official definitions that church has given on the matter-

Salvation: To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.

Eternal life: To live forever as families in God’s presence (D&C 132:19–20, 24, 55). Eternal life is God’s greatest gift to man.

Anyone who has done any extensive research on the matter will find that when they come across the word "salvation" in scripture it means pretty much exactly what the LDS church defines it as- being saved from both physical and spiritual death. The opposite word of "salvation" is "damnation". In order to be saved from spiritual death one must repent, accept the gospel and be baptized in order to be washed clean from their sins. There is no other way that salvation comes unto man. There is no such thing as anyone reaping any form of salvation without obedience to the gospel.

The term "eternal life" is said to be rather synonymous with salvation because if you have one you have the other. No one who is saved will have anything other than eternal life. If one is saved from spiuritual death he thus has eternal life. The ternal life spoken of in scriptures needs some clarification. We are really talking about eternal spiritual life- a life where one is saved and lives free from physical and spiritual death.