mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 I've got the book in my hand now, and I don't see where it says that.76 v 80-87 talks about the Terrestrial Kingdom and who goes thereI can't quote it- the system wont let me- dunno why
inquiringmind Posted February 25, 2012 Author Posted February 25, 2012 The scriptures are clear that this is the time of our probation, this is the time to prepare to meet God. If we do not do it here, we have lost the opportunity.That's what a Temple Lot Mormon told me (but he didn't believe in Temple work.)We are resurrected, then fact judgement, then receive our reward. Just as there are those who choose not to move on to having bodies and will be in that state for all eternity, there are those who are not willing to follow God and will be dammed for all eternity.Then we already made it past one probation, didn't we?
Rob Osborn Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Does it say these three kingdoms exist when He's done, and His work is spotless?The logic here for me is that Christ is on the earth during the millennium doing the work the Father gave him to do. What is that work? The workof saving all who will obey Christ and his gospel becoming thuscleansed from all sin. Sin is the only thing which keeps us from the Fathers presence in his kingdom. So, we thus knowthat all of the savedre cleansed from al lsin.
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 "So wake up, and do something more than dream of your mansions on high...."My beliefs have the opposite effect. I don't dream. I live fully awake.Everything I believe fills me with such joy that I cannot help but act. That's the glorious truth of the gospel.It's beauty not duty that allows me to love, cry repentance, serve, and live with extravagant abandon.It's seeing how good God is that allows living life abundantly. That's some very "good news"!
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Hmmmmmmmmmm JOD vs D&C?They do not conflict.References to the various kingdoms all precede the redemption described vs. 106-108.
inquiringmind Posted February 25, 2012 Author Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) delete Edited February 25, 2012 by inquiringmind
Rob Osborn Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 The scriptures are clear that this is the time of our probation, this is the time to prepare to meet God. If we do not do it here, we have lost the opportunity. We are resurrected, then fact judgement, then receive our reward. Just as there are those who choose not to move on to having bodies and will be in that state for all eternity, there are those who are not willing to follow God and will be dammed for all eternity.This doctrine comes from the BoM prophets andwhat knowledge they had at that time. According to them, there was no possibility for repentance after death and the unrepentant would forever be sealed to hell. Modern revelation states that this teaching is incorrect and that indeed so, the damned in hell can repent of their sins, accept the proxy work done for them in temples and be releasedfrom damnation.
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 ok - almost 3 a.m.I'm done friends 'Til we meet again...
zerinus Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Have you read what Joseph Smith wrote about Enoch? He said that Enoch was currenty a terrestrial being.Enoch parted the veil, saw God, and is still only a terrestrial being?!I figure if Enoch is locked into a Terrestrial order, then the rest of us who haven't pierced the veil, spoken directly to God, and been translated might as well throw our hands in the air and give up. On the other hand, if Enoch is currently of a terrestrial order and is going to move beyond that state then there is hope for us all...Joseph Smith was describing the state of translated beings. He was saying that their state is of the terrestrial order, rather than celestial. They must wait for the greater change that will take place after the resurrection before they enter into the glory of the celestial. That does not mean that everyone who gets resurrected enters into the celestial glory. Some receive a resurrection of life, while others receive a resurrection of damnation (John 5:29). The "terrestrial" state of translated beings is not equivalent to the "terrestrial" state of resurrected beings, and a comparison between them is misleading. There is no scripture that says that those who inherit a terrestrial resurrection will eventually find their way to the celestial.
zerinus Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 mark,You are focusing on translation and missing the point.The point is that this interim state between telestial (mortal) and celestial (resurrected) is a terrestrial order.Kind of like the progression of the salvaton drama we reenact in the temple.Except that according to D&C 105:4-5, when Zion is fully established here on earth (telestial), it will operate under the law of the celestial kingdom, which suggests that things aren't as simple, or as cut and dried as you think.
zerinus Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 I'm not so sure about that.There are quotes that indicate that resurrecton is the culmination of our progress.Not true. Some come forth unto the resurrection of damnation. See my previous post.And remember, the inseparable combination of spirit and element is a fulness of joy. (D&C 93)It doesn't say that. It says that without it they cannot receive a fullness of joy. That is not the same as saying that with it will unavoidably receive a fullness of joy. Those are saying two different things.A lower order, imperfect being, inheriting a fulness of joy would be the equivalent of a fallen being putting forth his hand and partaking of the tree of life only to live forever in his sins.And we both know that God put a specific plan in place to prevent that.I didn't quite understand that.
zerinus Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Or not.Brigham Young said that we aren't prepared to receive our bodies until we progress in our learning to the point that our minds are no longer darkened.If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. We cannot enter into celestial glory in our present state of ignorance and mental darkness (DBY, 378–79).That isn't some obscure quote by the way. It comes from the BY manual we used in RS/PH a couple of years back.Getting our bodies back appears to be the culmination of our progress ...He was talking about the resurrection of the righteous, not the resurrection of the damned.
zerinus Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 I don't think it's clear at all.Brigham Young said that only one kingdom would exist when the Lord's work was finished.Need reference.I'm saying that everything I've read and studied on the matter has convinced me that resurrection is the culmination of our progress and that lower order beings don't inherit resurrected bodies until they are prepared to receive them.Which indicates that this progression comes prior to resurrection. But that it also comes to all.**Standard caveat about SOPs applies as we do not know their fate.Not true. See above.
zerinus Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Every kingdom will be blotted out of existence, except the one whose ruling spirit is the Holy Ghost, and whose king is the Lord. ~ Brigham Young (JOD 2:124)That holds true of all the three kingdoms of glory.
zerinus Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) They do not conflict.References to the various kingdoms all precede the redemption described vs. 106-108.Verses 106-108 refer to those who will inherit the telestial kingom after the resurrection (after they have been cast down to hell, and punished for their sins). It doesn't say that they will inherit a celestial kingdom. Edited February 25, 2012 by zerinus
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 There is no scripture that says that those who inherit a terrestrial resurrection will eventually find their way to the celestial.The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence.Waxes and wanes...
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Except that according to D&C 105:4-5, when Zion is fully established here on earth (telestial), it will operate under the law of the celestial kingdom, which suggests that things aren't as simple, or as cut and dried as you think.The earth will become celestial. (D&C 88)And according the Elder Charles W. Penrose, all her saved inhabitants will dwell on earth.
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Not true. Some come forth unto the resurrection of damnation. See my previous post.Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken.... It doesn't say that. It says that without it they cannot receive a fullness of joy. That is not the same as saying that with it will unavoidably receive a fullness of joy. Those are saying two different things. "Salvation is exaltation . That is the sum and substance of the whole matter. Salvation is eternal life . It is an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world, the only place the family unit continues . It consists of the continuation of the family unit forever in glorious exaltation in the kingdom of God. It consists of the fullness of glory of the Father and of a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. It is not a lower or lesser state than that reserved for those who become as God is. It is godhood." ("Q&A: Questions and Answers," New Era , April 1971) Bruce R. McConkieI didn't quite understand that.Moses 4
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 He was talking about the resurrection of the righteous, not the resurrection of the damned.So the righteous have to progress to receive their bodies again but the wicked get them gratis?
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Need reference.The reference and entire quote was provided earlier in the thread.
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 That holds true of all the three kingdoms of glory.Or for all three glories of the one kingdom...PS Glad you kept reading and found the reference.
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Verses 106-108 refer to those who will inherit the telestial kingom after the resurrection (after they have been cast down to hell, and punished for their sins). It doesn't say that they will inherit a celestial kingdom.After? These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. The entire section refers to these orders of beings prior to resurrection right up until the end when Christ perfects His work and returns the kingdom to the Father, "spotless".
Bikeemikey Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 In an older old testament study manual it makes mention that those translated, some prior to the resurrection of Christ, were transformed into a Terrestrial body in order to be-able to continue to dwell on Earth and do there work but not be subject to the Telestial law. (I had to get rid of the old manual when i moved so I don't have it with me any more - perhaps someone else with a 15-20 yer old Old testament study guide can help me find the quote.)Given that we don't understand resurrection, for example, dying does not appear to be a prerequisite, it seems silly to argue about progression between kingdoms, as a kingdom is seems to be synonymous with the nature of the body. Until we know more about resurrection and the process of migrating from one kind of glorifed body to another we don't really have much to talk about.We do know that those translated from Telestial to Terrestrial bodies as part of being "translated" will one day inherit a celestial glory/body. This appears to provide the evidence for at least the idea of multiple resurrections (these individuals will have at least two) and therefore migration from one glory/kingdom to another.
Deborah Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Have you read what Joseph Smith wrote about Enoch? He said that Enoch was currenty a terrestrial being.That is because at the time Enoch was a translated being not a resurrected being. His city had been taken up. He likely has a Celestial body now as he has been resurrected. Translated is not the same as resurrected.I see that Cate showed the discussion on translation vs resurrection, but just pointing out they are different things. Edited February 25, 2012 by Deborah
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