Rob Osborn Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 We existed for eons before we came here and the purpose to come here is to act out according to our passions. This is not a once in a life time opportunity to make it or break it, we prepared for this opportunity for an eternity and we were put in a situation to act out according to our nature. tomk gave a theory concerning the sons of perdition, but if we follow the doctrine that they will be eternally dammed, then why would they be cut off but those who were only marginally better?If there is progression between kingdoms then it begs the question, what is the point of obeying any of the commandments? We can just live a life of wickedness and always take comfort that 5 billion years from now we can always change our ways and go on to eternal glory.Wickedness is not happiness. There is a false notion that if eternal progression is possible then people will automatically choose to do evil all the day long and at some point change and be saved along with the rest. What a false doctrine- a false premise to base ones beliefs. The New Testament and the BoM especially speak of reaping what one sows. If one reaps wickedness all the day long then when they die they go to the spirit prison/hell to spend some time being served by justice. Hell is not a happy place to be so I don't understand how anyone would want to take that path- its not the happy path. The point of obeying the commandments is that you "have to" if you want saved from the hell that awaits the otherwise unrepentant. Hell is not a happy place! And, if you are in hell, obeying the gospel is still the only way to be released from the fate of the condemned damnation of hell. So, no matter how one looks at it, the choice of being wicked only delays ones own happiness.Where did the idea come from anyway that doing wickedness was happiness? Perhaps Satan?
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Yeah--why would you want to wast any time with wickedness, and put off your own real happiness for 5 billion years?That reminds me of several passages in 1 John.No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him (1 John 3:6.)They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19.)No one born of God practices sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot practice sin because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9.)Exactly.It's not that we don't make mistakes but immediately repent because we do not desire to live in the miserable state of being out of harmony with God and all that is good. Like the people of Benjamin - we have no more desire to d evil but to do good continually.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) If I have a Telestial body now, I can always work out in an effort eventually to turn it into a Celestial body! That's a cute joke, but I think it has serious implications as jokes often do!1 Cor 15: 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 aThere are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the bcelestial is one, and the glory of the cterrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the asun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the bstars: for one star cdiffereth from another star in dglory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in acorruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in aglory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a anatural body; it is raised a bspiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.So if progression is possible- do we keep switching bodies all the time? That's why I think once the resurrection is over- that's it. No more progression is possible unless you have a Celestial body - the only one equipped for progression to full godhood.So am I wrong? Edited February 25, 2012 by mfbukowski
inquiringmind Posted February 25, 2012 Author Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Before we were born we had spirit bodies, right?Now we have these physical bodies.And after the resurrection we'll trade these in for something else, right?It looks like we've already switched bodies (or at least put on an additional outer body) once, and can look forward to switching bodies (or having these bodies we now have have greatly improved) at the second coming--so I guess I don't see why further improvement would be unthinkable. Edited February 25, 2012 by inquiringmind
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 aThere are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the bcelestial is one, and the glory of the cterrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the asun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the bstars: for one star cdiffereth from another star in dglory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in acorruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in aglory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a anatural body; it is raised a bspiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.I don't know what's up with the formatting on that previous post- but the point is that the resurrected body is of a specific type and I don't believe we keep switching bodies as we supposedly advanceI think if we get a Celestial body- we can progress forever. No Celestial body at the time of the resurrection- you are stuck where you are. Happy forever but no further progression.Just my opinion
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 mfb,Have you read what Joseph Smith wrote about Enoch? He said that Enoch was currenty a terrestrial being.Enoch parted the veil, saw God, and is still only a terrestrial being?!
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 mfb,Have you read what Joseph Smith wrote about Enoch? He said that Enoch was currenty a terrestrial being.Enoch parted the veil, saw God, and is still only a terrestrial being?!Nope I had not seen that.I would say that proves that progression between kingdoms is possible. Case closed!
inquiringmind Posted February 25, 2012 Author Posted February 25, 2012 mfb,Have you read what Joseph Smith wrote about Enoch? He said that Enoch was currenty a terrestrial being.Enoch parted the veil, saw God, and is still only a terrestrial being?!Where does it say that Cate?
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:The Mission of EnochSection Four 1839-42, p.169If Cain had fulfilled the law of righteousness as did Enoch, he could have walked with God all the days of his life, and never failed of a blessing. "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah 300 years, and begat sons and daughters, and all the days of Enoch were 365 years; and Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him." (Genesis 5:22-23.) Now this Enoch God reserved unto Himself, that he should not die at that time, and appointed unto him a ministry unto terrestrial bodies, of whom there has been but little revealed. He is reserved also unto the presidency of a dispensation, and more shall be said of him and terrestrial bodies in another treatise. He is a ministering angel, to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation, and appeared unto Jude as Abel did unto Paul; therefore Jude spoke of him (14, 15 verses). And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, revealed these sayings: "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His Saints."Paul was also acquainted with this character, and received instructions from him. "By faith Enoch was translated, that he should not see death, and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God; but without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a revealer to those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:5-6.)Now the doctrine of translation is a power which belongs to this Priesthood. There are many things which belong to the powers of the Priesthood and the keys thereof, that have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world; they are hid from the wise and prudent to be revealed in the last times.Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but his is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead. "Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection." (See Hebrews 11:35.)Now it was evident that there was a better resurrection, or else God would not have revealed it unto Paul. Wherein then, can it be said a better resurrection. This distinction is made between the doctrine of the actual resurrection and translation: translation obtains deliverance from the tortures and sufferings of the body, but their existence will prolong as to the labors and toils of the ministry, before they can enter into so great a rest and glory.On the other hand, those who were tortured, not accepting deliverance, received and immediate rest from their labors. "And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord, for from henceforth they do rest from their labors and their works do follow them." (See Revelation 14:13.)They rest from their labors for a long time, and yet their work is held in reserve for them, that they are permitted to do the same work, after they receive a resurrection for their bodies. But we shall leave this subject and the subject of the terrestrial bodies for another time, in order to treat upon them more fully.
Rob Osborn Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 I don't know what's up with the formatting on that previous post- but the point is that the resurrected body is of a specific type and I don't believe we keep switching bodies as we supposedly advanceI think if we get a Celestial body- we can progress forever. No Celestial body at the time of the resurrection- you are stuck where you are. Happy forever but no further progression.Just my opinionIn the D&C it speaks of bodies being quickened by the glory that is present. At the beginning of the millennium all telestial bodies will be quickened to a terrestrial glory including those resurrected to that point. I believe that it. Isnt until the end of the millennium that any of the resurrecred will attain to a celestial glory.
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Thank you Cate.You're welcome. I figure if Enoch is locked into a Terrestrial order, then the rest of us who haven't pierced the veil, spoken directly to God, and been translated might as well throw our hands in the air and give up. On the other hand, if Enoch is currently of a terrestrial order and is going to move beyond that state then there is hope for us all...
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Whoa whoa now wait a minute here.....That passage Cate quoted seems to refer to being translated into a terrestrial state- NOT being resurrected. Very different. Many have been translated in order to fulfill missions later that had to be done while still in the body. Elijah is a case in point.Isn't the City of Enoch supposed to return during the Millenium or something?He has just been translated, not resurrected.So this does not prove that one can move between kingdoms AFTER the resurrection at all. Besides why else would Enoch only have a terrestrial body if Abraham Isaac and Jacob have already gone on to their exaltation? It doesn't make sense.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 In the D&C it speaks of bodies being quickened by the glory that is present. At the beginning of the millennium all telestial bodies will be quickened to a terrestrial glory including those resurrected to that point. I believe that it. Isnt until the end of the millennium that any of the resurrecred will attain to a celestial glory.What about Abraham?
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Translation vs Resurrection 3 Nephi 28. Some of the Lord’s Faithful Servants Have Been Translated So They Can Continue Their Ministry on the EarthHave students read 3 Nephi 28:1–10 silently, noting how the twelve Nephite disciples answered when Jesus asked them, “What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?”•What blessing did the Lord promise the first nine disciples? What blessing did He give to the other three?Help the students understand that the three disciples were placed in a condition we call being translated. Help them understand that this is different from being transfigured or resurrected. For further information, direct them to the definitions on page 339 in the student manual.Ask students to name others in the scriptures who have been translated (possible answers include Enoch and his people, Moses, Elijah, and John the Beloved). Explain that the Lord translates those who need to (1) live beyond the normal span of mortality and (2) retain their physical body to accomplish their divinely appointed mission.Divide the class into groups of three or four. To help students understand the experiences and conditions of the three disciples as presented in 3 Nephi 28, ask them to examine verses 6–40 and share insights about these verses. While students work in their groups, walk from group to group and listen to their comments. Encourage every student to contribute to the group’s discussion. Invite students to mark in their scriptures the insights shared by their groups. Insights should include that the Three Nephites:1. Would never taste of death but would be changed from mortality to immortality “in the twinkling of an eye” (see verses 7–8).2. Would not experience pain except sorrow for the sins of the world (see verse 9).3. Received a sure promise of exaltation (see verse 10).4. Saw and heard unspeakable things (see verses 13–14).5. Would be protected so that the wicked would have no power over them (see verses 19–22).6. Would be able to show themselves to others as they desired (see verse 30).7. Would be blessed so that Satan would have no power over them (see verse 39).8. Would remain on the earth until the Judgment Day (see verse 40).Point out that the Savior told the Three Nephites that they would be among the Jews and Gentiles, who would not know them (see 3 Nephi 28:25–30). Therefore, many of the stories people hear about the Three Nephites are probably untrue. Also explain that the phrase “ye shall never endure the pains of death” (verse 8) is often misunderstood to mean that the Three Nephites would never die. As Paul taught, “in Adam all die” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This refers to everyone, including translated beings. However, translated beings pass through death very quickly and then become resurrected beings. They do not experience the separation of the body from the spirit for any appreciable length of time, as most of us will experience. This change will happen in what the scriptures call “the twinkling of an eye” (verse 8). In this sense, they do not “taste of death” (verse 7).http://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-teacher-manual/chapter-46-3-nephi-27-30?lang=eng&query=translated+beings
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 </h3><h3> Doctrine and Covenants 132:3737 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Whoa whoa now wait a minute here.....That passage Cate quoted seems to refer to being translated into a terrestrial state- NOT being resurrected. Very different. Many have been translated in order to fulfill missions later that had to be done while still in the body. Elijah is a case in point.Isn't the City of Enoch supposed to return during the Millenium or something?He has just been translated, not resurrected.So this does not prove that one can move between kingdoms AFTER the resurrection at all. Besides why else would Enoch only have a terrestrial body if Abraham Isaac and Jacob have already gone on to their exaltation? It doesn't make sense.You're right. It doesn't make sense that we would progress after resurrection.It only makes sense that we progress toward resurrection.
inquiringmind Posted February 25, 2012 Author Posted February 25, 2012 That passage Cate quoted seems to refer to being translated into a terrestrial state- NOT being resurrected. Very differentResurrected is after you've been dead right?But then, what about those who live to see the second coming?Didn't Paul say "I'm telling you a mystery. Not all of us will die, but we will all be changed. It will happen in an instant, in a split second at the sound of the last trumpet" (1 Cor. 15:51-52).?Will those who "don't die" be resurrected or translated?
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 mark,You are focusing on translation and missing the point.The point is that this interim state between telestial (mortal) and celestial (resurrected) is a terrestrial order.Kind of like the progression of the salvaton drama we reenact in the temple.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Resurrected is after you've been dead right?But then, what about those who live to see the second coming?Didn't Paul say "I'm telling you a mystery. Not all of us will die, but we will all be changed. It will happen in an instant, in a split second at the sound of the last trumpet" (1 Cor. 15:51-52).?Will those who "don't die" be resurrected or translated?If you look at what I posted from the BOM institute manual above you will see it refers to being changed in the twinkling of an eye.Those who have been translated will be so "changed" as will those who have been alive during the Millenium. Both will be so changed.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) mark,You are focusing on translation and missing the point.The point is that this interim state between telestial (mortal) and celestial (resurrected) is a terrestrial order.Kind of like the progression of the salvaton drama we reenact in the temple.No, I'm not missing that- I've got that. I agree. But there WILL also be a terrestrial order with terrestrial bodies in the Terrestrial Kingdom AFTER the resurrectionYou know- 1Cor 15- bodies celestial terrestrial and we add telestial Edited February 25, 2012 by mfbukowski
inquiringmind Posted February 25, 2012 Author Posted February 25, 2012 If you look at what I posted from the BOM institute manual above you will see it refers to being changed in the twinkling of an eye.Those who have been translated will be so "changed" as will those who have been alive during the Millenium. Both will be so changed.If you look at what I posted from the BOM institute manual above you will see it refers to being changed in the twinkling of an eye.Those who have been translated will be so "changed" as will those who have been alive during the Millenium. Both will be so changed.So those who are alive at the second coming, and during the Millennium, will be translated (not resurrected)?
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 No, I'm not missing that- I've got that. I agree. But there WILL also be a terrestrial order with terrestrial bodies in the Terrestrial Kingdom AFTER the resurrectionYou know- 1Cor 15- bodies celestial terrestrial and we add telestialI'm not so sure about that.There are quotes that indicate that resurrecton is the culmination of our progress.And remember, the inseparable combination of spirit and element is a fulness of joy. (D&C 93)A lower order, imperfect being, inheriting a fulness of joy would be the equivalent of a fallen being putting forth his hand and partaking of the tree of life only to live forever in his sins.And we both know that God put a specific plan in place to prevent that.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 So those who are alive at the second coming, and during the Millennium, will be translated (not resurrected)?No.Everyone who ever lived will be resurrected. That is a free gift of the atonement.So there are two categories of people we are talking about here- 1= Those alive during the Millenium, 2= Those who have been translated.Neither 1 nor 2 will "taste death"- that means that they will not die in an ordinary sense- but they will be changed in the "twinkling of an eye", presumably at the time of the judgement, after the millenium, or before if they qualify- and will receive their resurrected bodies. All will be resurrected.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 I'm not so sure about that.There are quotes that indicate that resurrecton is the culmination of our progress.And remember, the inseparable combination of spirit and element is a fulness of joy. (D&C 93)A lower order, imperfect being, inheriting a fulness of joy would be the equivalent of a fallen being putting forth his hand and partaking of the tree of life only to live forever in his sins.And we both know that God put a specific plan in place to prevent that.I'm not denying that.All I'm saying is that there will be a Terrestrial Kingdom after the Resurrection- that is very clear. 1
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