Does D&C 76:112 Prove That There'S No Advancement Between Kingdoms?

[thesometimesaint]

I like the analogy of the clock all three of the hands move, but the hour hand will never catch up with the minute hand, and neither will catch up with the second hand. Like wise in the eternities. The Telestial will never catch up with the Terestial which will never catch up with the Celestial, but all are eternally progressing.

[Calm]

That's certainly one way to see it but I don't see that this makes the concept of ministering with the purpose of progress any less reasonable.

I am open to both interpretations at this time myself.

[Rob Osborn]

I like the analogy of the clock all three of the hands move, but the hour hand will never catch up with the minute hand, and neither will catch up with the second hand. Like wise in the eternities. The Telestial will never catch up with the Terestial which will never catch up with the Celestial, but all are eternally progressing.

Its a nice analogy but one that is forever flawed by reason and logic. If we are to assume that telestial and terrestrial laws are what make up in part the celestial laws, which certainly must be, then we must also relaize that God makes no law that justifies sin nor makes no law that does not lead into godliness. So, if one is progressing at any level of the law, they are thus progressing towards godliness. If one is then to reason that if one is always pressing towards godliness, then eventually, at some point they must attain godliness.

Sometimes we fail to realize that all of the saved are saved by the same exact principles and ordinances- all enter by the same way and are on the same path leading to salvation from hell. If all certainly must be on the same path (otherwise how then are they saved?) it may be true that some may be further in theor progression on that path than others. But, the path still only has "one" destination and all who enter the path and stay on it will all end up at the same location.

We also tend to think that people will be graded eternally into three grades from which they themselves cannot overcome certain weaknesses and thus why they recieve an eternally lesser reward. We tend to think that they must still be eternally coupled with some sin and thus why they are in a lower kingdom. But this is false, for if they are trained to an addiction or sin that would keep them from a higher kingdom, then we could say that they have no salvation at all and are instead angels to the devil. Christ saves all from "all their sins"! This means that if one wants salvation from hell eternally, he must repent of all his sins and become born again becoming a son or daughter of God. Now of course we know that God gives his true children all that he hath. This blows any false doctrine out of the water with thinking one can be saved but never achieve the end of the path they are on.

There is only one plan of salvation and one reward for obedience to that plan. That reward is salvation which is synonymous with eternal life. No one who is thus saved will enjoy anything other than eternal happiness with Heavenly Father having reached the destination at the end of the one singular path.

[mercyngrace]

There is only one plan of salvation and one reward for obedience to that plan. That reward is salvation which is synonymous with eternal life. No one who is thus saved will enjoy anything other than eternal happiness with Heavenly Father having reached the destination at the end of the one singular path.

It would've been pretty funny though if more options were provided in Lehi's explanation to his sons...

Lehi: Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. Then there are these middle options for, you know, less decent people. We'll call it half-life. No wait, that's going to confuse people once scientists discover carbon dating. Maybe undead. Nah, the Haitians won't have any reason to convert. Hmmm...

Jacob: Maybe you should stick with the freedom-captivity metaphor, Dad.

[Bikeemikey]

If we can move between different glorified bodies, which it seems we can, then we can move between kingdoms.

As for resurrection, perhaps it simply means mean final translation: the reason it is final is because it is the final change you were interested in making. It may be a definitional term to describe the final transformation between glorified bodies. Not from one specific glory to another but from one glory to the final glory you will inhabit.

[zerinus]

There is only one plan of salvation and one reward for obedience to that plan. That reward is salvation which is synonymous with eternal life. No one who is thus saved will enjoy anything other than eternal happiness with Heavenly Father having reached the destination at the end of the one singular path.

It would've been pretty funny though if more options were provided in Lehi's explanation to his sons...

Lehi: Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. Then there are these middle options for, you know, less decent people. We'll call it half-life. No wait, that's going to confuse people once scientists discover carbon dating. Maybe undead. Nah, the Haitians won't have any reason to convert. Hmmm...

Jacob: Maybe you should stick with the freedom-captivity metaphor, Dad.

From the section heading to D&C 76:

A vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, February 16, 1832. HC 1:245–252. Prefacing his record of this vision the Prophet wrote: "Upon my return from Amherst conference, I resumed the translation of the Scriptures. From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. It appeared self-evident from what truths were left, that if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body, the term `Heaven,' as intended for the Saints' eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one. Accordingly, while translating St. John's Gospel, myself and Elder Rigdon saw the following vision." It was after the Prophet had translated John 5:29 that this vision was given.

[mercyngrace]

It appeared self-evident...

except...

that in the revelation itself, the word "kingdoms" is never used. Not, Once.

The word "kingdom" is used in the folowing phrases:

my kingdom, the kingdom of God and His Christ, the kingdom of our God, the kingdom, and his kingdom.

It would appear that Joseph's understanding was progressing since 4 years later he was shown that beings previously identified as terrestrial (Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.) were actually able to reside in the Celestial kingdom (D&C 137).

[zerinus]

It appeared self-evident...

except...

that in the revelation itself, the word "kingdoms" is never used. Not, Once.

The word "kingdom" is used in the folowing phrases:

my kingdom, the kingdom of God and His Christ, the kingdom of our God, the kingdom, and his kingdom.

It would appear that Joseph's understanding was progressing since 4 years later he was shown that beings previously identified as terrestrial (Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.) were actually able to reside in the Celestial kingdom (D&C 137).

D&C 130:

8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ's.

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

[Deborah]

It would appear that Joseph's understanding was progressing since 4 years later he was shown that beings previously identified as terrestrial (Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.) were actually able to reside in the Celestial kingdom (D&C 137).

The only verse I could find on this was v7 "Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;"

This isn't referring to those who had the opportunity to receive a knowledge in the flesh but refused it. Unless I'm missing something.

[Deborah]

If we can move between different glorified bodies, which it seems we can, then we can move between kingdoms.

Where are you getting this? We don't move between glorified bodies, which is the point. Once you receive your resurrected body that is the body that is designed for the kingdom you are in. You still seem to be confusing translation with resurrection. A translated body is not a "glorified" body as we understand it but a body that is unable to suffer pain or death until the final "twinkling of an eye" where the body and spirit are separated and then immediately reunited in resurrection.

[mercyngrace]

D&C 130:

8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ's.

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

And who inhabits the earth in its sanctified Celestial state?

Elder Charles W. Penrose: "Thus the inhabitants of Earth with the few exceptions that are beyond the power of redemption will eventually be saved. And the globe on which they passed their probation, having kept the law of its being, will come into remembrance before its Maker. It will die like its products. But it will be quickened again and resurrected in the celestial glory. It has been born of the water, it will also be born of the Spirit. Purified by fire from all the corruptions that once defiled it, developed into its perfections as one of the family of worlds fitted for the Creator's presence, all its latent light awakened into scintillating action, it will move up into its place among the orbs governed by celestial time, and shining "like a sea of glass mingled with fire," every tint and color of the heavenly bow radiating from its surface, the ransomed of the Lord will dwell upon it; the highest beings of the ancient orbs will visit it; the garden of God will again adorn it; the heavenly government will prevail in every part; Jesus will reign as its King; the river of life will flow out from the regal throne; the tree of life, whose leaves were for the healing of the nations, will flourish upon the banks of the heavenly stream, and its golden fruit will be free for the white-robed throng, that they may eat and live forever. This perfected Earth and its saved inhabitants will then be presented to the Eternal Father as the finished work of Christ, and all things will be subject unto the Great Patriarch, Architect, Creator, Ruler, the Almighty, to whom be obedience and reverence and praise in all the countless worlds that shine as jewels in His universal crown ( Charles W. Penrose. "Leaves from the Tree of Life," Contributor, Sept. 1881, pp. 364-65)

[Rob Osborn]

From the section heading to D&C 76:

A vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, February 16, 1832. HC 1:245–252. Prefacing his record of this vision the Prophet wrote: "Upon my return from Amherst conference, I resumed the translation of the Scriptures. From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. It appeared self-evident from what truths were left, that if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body, the term `Heaven,' as intended for the Saints' eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one. Accordingly, while translating St. John's Gospel, myself and Elder Rigdon saw the following vision." It was after the Prophet had translated John 5:29 that this vision was given.

Section 76 is very hard to decipher. There are many things in it which need some clarification otherwise it leads one to believe that certain doctrines are controversial- thus why we are debating.

I think the Lord was trying to reveal to Joseph the true plan of salvation and that in due time, all of those whom Christ saves will make it to the celestial kingdom. I certainly can't speak authoritively for the church but I am willing to bet that the temple endowment is section 76 part two which goes on to explain the kingdoms in their true light and meaning. Of note in section 76 however is that because certain anomalies do exist, it must be taken in its proper understanding in order to understand the vision Joseph saw. For instance, in one part he speaks as if the sons of perdition are not resurrected at all. A fotnote clarifies that. In another part it speaks of a portion of the inhabitants of the terrestrial as having been those who "died without law". Of note here is that the footnote to this verse specifically references section 137 as being associated with accepting in the spirit world and being celestial heirs. Regardless, a person who dies without law cannot be judged by law and as such are under no condemnation and are as children who are automatically redeemed in and through Christ.

Obviously, as one can see, the section needs clarification in order to understand. Joseph Smith was shown the vision of the plan of salvation and part of that plan was showing him the three kingdoms. Joseph was left at that time to reflect upon what he had seen and how he interpreted it at that time. It wasn't until later that he was shown the temple endowment which thus added the clarification (in my opinion) for the meaning of the kingdoms in the plan of salvation. As a church and as a whole, doctrinally speaking, we have not yet graduated to the real and true meaning of the plan of salvation as it really is as outlined in the temple. We come close at times but still miss the picture completely or partially. The temple preparation class attempts to show or teach that the endowment is "the plan of salvation" in its fulness. According to that plan or outline, we progress from our pre-mortal lives into the telestial kingdom where the glory (light and truth) of each individual is as different as all the stars. From there we progress to the terrestrial kingdom which is the phase of the earth during the millennial reign of Christ. It is in that kingdom that exists all those who died in mortality without law, those who were not completely 100% valiant (all of us sinners- yes you and me) and those who need to still be raised to perfection. It is there that Christ perfects all those he saves. From there we go on and progress into the celestial kingdom, the only kingdom Christ saves in the end. At that point there will not be telestial and terrestrial kingdoms for people to be saved to. This is where the teachings of John in his Revelation come into play and meaning. Reading the last chapters of Revelations, it becomes rather quite apparent that Christ is only saving one group- one kingdom and all of them will reside on earth inside the new Jerusalem set up where their names are written. All those not found in this holy city will be outside the gate and will be sons of perdition. Everyone except the sons of perdition will have residence in the celestial kingdom at that point.

[mercyngrace]

This isn't referring to those who had the opportunity to receive a knowledge in the flesh but refused it. Unless I'm missing something.

I think you might have misunderstood my point, which was simply that Joseph experienced an evolution in his understanding of the afterlife. You can see this in the scriptures.

D&C 76 makes no distinction about opportunity. It simply says that those who received the gospel not in the flesh but afterward received it are terrestrial. (D&C 76)

Later, Joseph discovers that things are not as black and white as he had originally supposed.

He also discovers that all children under the age of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom. (D&C 137)

By 1918, Joseph F. Smith said that the dead who repent will be redeemed via vicarious work in the temple. They can enter the celestial kingdom. (D&C 138)

And we know those ordinances are binding as Joseph said that if a man falls after being sealed by the HSOP, barring the shedding of innocent blood, he will still be exalted. D&C 132)

There has been a clear broadening of our understanding of God's mercy, compassion, and ability to complete his work and glory as more and more truths have been restored.

Edited February 27, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Rob Osborn]

The only verse I could find on this was v7 "Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;"

This isn't referring to those who had the opportunity to receive a knowledge in the flesh but refused it. Unless I'm missing something.

What about those who "died without law" which includes children. We can't say that it doesn't mean this group too. The nail in the coffin for me is this- Any and all who receive the gospel, whther here or in th eworld of the spirits will be resurrected to dwell with Christ during the millennium as members of the church and as members of the kingdom of heaven. What are they doing on the earth, reigning with Christ, advancing his plan if in the end they get kicked off to go on another planet? That to me is ilogical. If you accpet the gospel, regardless of when or how, you become the same exact type of person who is purified from all sin which is all that keeps us from returning back to live with the Father and Son.

[zerinus]

And who inhabits the earth in its sanctified Celestial state?

Elder Charles W. Penrose: "Thus the inhabitants of Earth with the few exceptions that are beyond the power of redemption will eventually be saved. And the globe on which they passed their probation, having kept the law of its being, will come into remembrance before its Maker. It will die like its products. But it will be quickened again and resurrected in the celestial glory. It has been born of the water, it will also be born of the Spirit. Purified by fire from all the corruptions that once defiled it, developed into its perfections as one of the family of worlds fitted for the Creator's presence, all its latent light awakened into scintillating action, it will move up into its place among the orbs governed by celestial time, and shining "like a sea of glass mingled with fire," every tint and color of the heavenly bow radiating from its surface, the ransomed of the Lord will dwell upon it; the highest beings of the ancient orbs will visit it; the garden of God will again adorn it; the heavenly government will prevail in every part; Jesus will reign as its King; the river of life will flow out from the regal throne; the tree of life, whose leaves were for the healing of the nations, will flourish upon the banks of the heavenly stream, and its golden fruit will be free for the white-robed throng, that they may eat and live forever. This perfected Earth and its saved inhabitants will then be presented to the Eternal Father as the finished work of Christ, and all things will be subject unto the Great Patriarch, Architect, Creator, Ruler, the Almighty, to whom be obedience and reverence and praise in all the countless worlds that shine as jewels in His universal crown ( Charles W. Penrose. "Leaves from the Tree of Life," Contributor, Sept. 1881, pp. 364-65)

What he is saying does not make a lot of sense to me. The scriptures are a lot clearer:

D&C 88:

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then [i.e. after the resurrection] receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

Aren't you grateful for the scriptures, which make things so much clearer?

[Rob Osborn]

I would also like to state that Jospehs interpretation of Jacobs ladder from the OT prophet Jacob has it being defined as the three principle rounds of Jacob's ladder represent the teletial kingdom then next up, the terrestrial kingdom and the top rug the celestial kingdom. Later he went on to say that salvation is like climbing a ladder where one starts at the bottom rung and climbs to the next and then the next to achieve salvation.

[mercyngrace]

Aren't you grateful for the scriptures, which make things so much clearer?

I love section 88!

I love how it shows the clear distinction between a kingdom and a glory, don't you?*

And I love how it clearly states that only those who are not of a celestial, terrestrial, or telestial glory must return again to their own place.

*Aren't there three degrees of glory in the celestial kingdom?

Edited February 27, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Rob Osborn]

A person who is resurrected are resurrected by the glory of the earth at that point in time. The earth right now enjoys the glory of the telestial level which is the glory of the Holy Ghost. A person who has already been resurrected have been resurrected by the glor of the telestial glory which glory this earth now has. Those bodies and all unresurrected bodies who are alive when Christ comes will be "quickened" into a higher glory- that of the terrestrial order or terrestrial glory. At the end of the millennium when the earth is quickened into the celestial glory, all resurrected bodies will then be quickened also into that glory at that time.

[zerinus]

What about those who "died without law" which includes children. We can't say that it doesn't mean this group too. The nail in the coffin for me is this- Any and all who receive the gospel, whther here or in th eworld of the spirits will be resurrected to dwell with Christ during the millennium as members of the church and as members of the kingdom of heaven. What are they doing on the earth, reigning with Christ, advancing his plan if in the end they get kicked off to go on another planet? That to me is ilogical. If you accpet the gospel, regardless of when or how, you become the same exact type of person who is purified from all sin which is all that keeps us from returning back to live with the Father and Son.

The Millennium will be a terrestrial order of existence, therefore all those of a terrestrial order will be experiencing life on earth during the Millennium. Those of the telestial order will be denied that privilege.

[Rob Osborn]

I can't help but think of the parable of the wheat and the tares at this point. In the parable, Christ explains that the field is the world and that in this world are planted wheat and tares. Every soul who comes to earth is either a wheat or a tare in the end. For those interested, do a study in the D&C regarding the further explanation of what happens to every soul who ever lived or will live on earth. (hint-there is only two outcomes told of)

[zerinus]

I love section 88!

I love how it shows the clear distinction between a kingdom and a glory, don't you?*

And I love how it clearly states that only those who are not of a celestial, terrestrial, or telestial glory must return again to their own place.

So why are you turning a blind eye to verses 27-31?

*Aren't there three degrees of glory in the celestial kingdom?

Sure, but that is a different thing from the the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial.

[Rob Osborn]

The millennium will be the terrestrial kingdom indeed. At that point, the telestial kingdom will be over- it will not exist.

[Bikeemikey]

Where are you getting this? We don't move between glorified bodies, which is the point. Once you receive your resurrected body that is the body that is designed for the kingdom you are in. You still seem to be confusing translation with resurrection. A translated body is not a "glorified" body as we understand it but a body that is unable to suffer pain or death until the final "twinkling of an eye" where the body and spirit are separated and then immediately reunited in resurrection.

I think we just disagree on the relationship between the body and glory. As I understand it if someone has been changed to a terrestrial body they have a terrestrial glory (D&C 88:28). Thus, if you are translated you have moved from a telelstial body to a terrestrial body, while waiting for a transition to a celestial body when that thing re refer to as resurrection takes place.

I also don't know that the idea of resurrection may be as much a one hit wonder as we think - mainly because I don't feel I have a really good grasp of the real difference between resurrection and translation and I don't think the scriptures give enough detail to complete the picture.

[mercyngrace]

So why are you turning a blind eye to verses 27-31?

I'm not. I addressed that specifically.

[mercyngrace]

The millennium will be the terrestrial kingdom indeed. At that point, the telestial kingdom will be over- it will not exist.

Until there is another telestial kindgom, an inferior kingdom, over whom celestial beings preside from the earth, now celestialized like a great urim and thummim...