Deborah Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 I still don't see where there is evidence that once one is resurrected with a body that he can then go on to get a better body. We have pre-mortal life, mortal life, and pre-resurrected life to repent and become what we will become but once resurrected that is the end. That's not to say that we can't progress with those resurrected bodies, but only within the bounds of those resurrected bodies. Salvation is being resurrected to a kingdom of glory and even the Telestial Kingdom is one of glory. We may interpret scriptures to say otherwise but I don't interpret them that way.Once we get to mortality we are pretty much stuck with the bodies we have. Now some may take better care of those bodies and improve them, but only within the sphere of the limits of mortality. Some are born with greater limitations, which are only an effect of mortality, but still they can only progress those bodies to the limits given them. This to me is analogous to what happens when we again receive bodies in the resurrection.From http://www.lds.org/g...tion+exaltationFinally, in another usage familiar and unique to Latter-day Saints, the words saved and salvation are also used to denote exaltation or eternal life (see Abr. 2:11). This is sometimes referred to as the “fulness of salvation” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 4 vols. [1979–81], 1:242). This salvation requires more than repentance and baptism by appropriate priesthood authority. It also requires the making of sacred covenants, including eternal marriage, in the temples of God, and faithfulness to those covenants by enduring to the end. If we use the word salvation to mean “exaltation,” it is premature for any of us to say that we have been “saved” in mortality. That glorious status can only follow the final judgment of Him who is the Great Judge of the living and the dead.The key to me are the covenants made in the temple, particularly those of eternal marriage. Marriage is not given in heaven and so once the Millennium is done and all the work for the living and dead has been done and accepted there is nothing further. So if someone hasn't been sealed in Celestial Marriage by the time he is resurrected this requirement for exaltation cannot be met. 1
Bikeemikey Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) I still don't see where there is evidence that once one is resurrected with a body that he can then go on to get a better body. We have pre-mortal life, mortal life, and pre-resurrected life to repent and become what we will become but once resurrected that is the end. That's not to say that we can't progress with those resurrected bodies, but only within the bounds of those resurrected bodies. Salvation is being resurrected to a kingdom of glory and even the Telestial Kingdom is one of glory. We may interpret scriptures to say otherwise but I don't interpret them that way.Once we get to mortality we are pretty much stuck with the bodies we have. Now some may take better care of those bodies and improve them, but only within the sphere of the limits of mortality. Some are born with greater limitations, which are only an effect of mortality, but still they can only progress those bodies to the limits given them. This to me is analogous to what happens when we again receive bodies in the resurrection.So if resurrection is a state change from one kind of body to another, and translation is the same state change, what is the difference? If you can be "translated" to a terrestrial state then resurrected to a celestial state why not resurrected to a terrestrial state then later resurrected to a celestial state?We don't know what the difference between these two terms is, if any. Edited February 26, 2012 by Bikeemikey
Bikeemikey Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Marriage is not given in heaven and so once the Millennium is done and all the work for the living and dead has been done and accepted there is nothing further. So if someone hasn't been sealed in Celestial Marriage by the time he is resurrected this requirement for exaltation cannot be met.We don't know that.
Rob Osborn Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Verses 106-108 refer to those who will inherit the telestial kingom after the resurrection (after they have been cast down to hell, and punished for their sins). It doesn't say that they will inherit a celestial kingdom.Just to be clear, Joseph is seeingin vision a certain group of individuals who are on the telestial world or who were part of the telestial world but are considered enemies of Christ and not part of those Christ is making perfect. I dont see how these specificindividuals can even be saved or are saved at all. It appears to me that these individuals are sons of perdition.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Given that we don't understand resurrection, for example, dying does not appear to be a prerequisite, it seems silly to argue about progression between kingdoms, as a kingdom is seems to be synonymous with the nature of the body.Until we know more about resurrection and the process of migrating from one kind of glorifed body to another we don't really have much to talk about.That's pretty much my point also.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) This talk about the word "salvation" meaning the same as "exaltation" - I think we need to clarify that for Evangelicals it only means "going to heaven"- or in our terms, going to paradise in the spirit world.Their concept goes no farther than this. So in talking to Evangelicals, if we say that "salvation" requires temple ordinances, for example, we are really throwing them off- and that is the basis for them believing that we think we can be "saved through works". In fact we don't believe that.What we DO believe is what is Biblical- that we are SAVED by grace- we get into "heaven" - paradise in the spirit world- by the grace of the atonement- but we are REWARDED based on "works". In other words, what kingdom we end up in is based on our righteousness- or works.So I have no problem with us speaking of "salvation" as being exaltation as long as we remember that Evangelicals will get the totally wrong impression when we do that.I avoid that terminology myself- and make it specific every time I talk about it so it is not misconstrued.Wasn't it Elder Holland who did a talk fairly recently on our different uses of "salvation"? We really should be careful on this board about making that distinction in my opinion, for our EV friends.26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.28And I will give him the morning star.29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Edited February 25, 2012 by mfbukowski
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 That's pretty much my point also.I think what we believe about judgment, resurrection, and eternal life matters greatly. To quote one contemporary Christian writer,Our eschatology shapes our ethics.Eschatology is about last things.Ethics are about how you live.What you believe about the future shapes, informs, and determines how you live now.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) What you believe about the future shapes, informs, and determines how you live now.Absolutely. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. We act on hope. That's what it is. We go to college based on the hope that we will better our lives. We plant because we hope to reap, etc etc etc But in the long run it is all faith= "a principle of action" per the Lectures on Faith.That's what it is all about!So is it "reasonable" to act on faith? It better be! Every plan we make in this life assumes we are reasonably acting on faith. Edited February 25, 2012 by mfbukowski
mercyngrace Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) For salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; ~ Joseph Smith (Lecture 7, LOF)If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation. ~ D&C 6:13And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God. ~ D&C 14:7Elder Bruce R. McConkie ~ "We are ofttimes prone to create artificial distinctions, to say that salvation means one thing and exaltation another, to suppose that salvation means to be resurrected, but that exaltation or eternal life is something in addition thereto. It is true that there are some passages of scripture that use salvation in a special and limited sense in order to give an overall perspective ( from the first step to the last step) of the plan of salvation that we would not otherwise have. (2 Nephi 9:1-27; D&C 76:40- 49; D&C 132:15-17.) These passages show the difference between general or universal salvation that consists of coming forth from the grave in immortality, and specific or individual salvation that consists of an inheritance in the celestial kingdom (last step of salvation). (Alma 11:40)Since it is the prophetic purpose to lead men to full salvation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, when they speak and write about salvation, almost without exception, they mean eternal life or exaltation . They use the terms salvation, exaltation, and eternal life as synonyms, as words that mean exactly the same thing without any difference, distinction, or variance whatever." ( Promised Messiah, p. 129.) Edited February 25, 2012 by mercyngrace
Deborah Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 We don't know what the difference between these two terms is, if any.We most certainly do know the difference. A translated being is one who has not tasted death and whose body is transformed to not taste of death until the time of resurrection so that they can do more of the Lord's work in mortality. Translated beings will be resurrected eventually but the spirit has not yet separated from the body to be reunited again.from the Book of Mormon teaching manual http://www.lds.org/m...anslated+beingsThis (resurrection) refers to everyone, including translated beings. However, translated beings pass through death very quickly and then become resurrected beings. They do not experience the separation of the body from the spirit for any appreciable length of time, as most of us will experience. This change will happen in what the scriptures call “the twinkling of an eye” (verse 8). In this sense, they do not “taste of death” (verse 7).
Deborah Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 We don't know that.D&C 132:16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
Deborah Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Since resurrection is by definition the uniting of a spirit body with a body of flesh and bones, never again to be divided, how could one be resurrected to a different body without dying again and the spirit and body separating?Also for more on translated beings: http://eom.byu.edu/i...anslated_Beings
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Now this is something I find fascinating- how the word "translate" has changed.When Joseph was writing- this is the 1828 Webster's definition of "translate":</h1><h1> translateTRANSLA'TE, v.t. [L. translatus, from transfero; trans, over, and fero, to bear.] 1. To bear, carry or remove from one place to another. It is applied to the removal of a bishop from one see to another. The bishop of Rochester, when the king would have translated him to a better bishoprick, refused. 2. To remove or convey to heaven, as a human being, without death. By faith Enoch was translated, that he should not see death. Heb. 16. 3. To transfer; to convey from one to another. 2 Sam. 3. 4. To cause to remove from one part of the body to another; as, to translate a disease. 5. To change. Happy is your grace, That can translate the stubbornness of fortune Into so quiet and so sweet a style. 6. To interpret; to render into another language; to express the sense of one language in the words of another. The Old Testament was translated into the Greek language more than two hundred years before Christ. The Scriptures are now translated into most of the languages of Europe and Asia. 7. To explain.http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,translateThe SECOND most important usage of the word was in the sense we are using it here- and translating from one language to another was the 6th most important usage!So it is clear that this concept of being a "translated being" was clear in 19th century religious parlanceAnd of course this has direct relevance to Joseph "translating" the BOM. It was never meant to be literal- it was meant to be conveyed, or changed from one context to another.So is it in 19th century English? Of course! Anyway, I digress....
Maidservant Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 This may be true but I always wonder about the resurrected body. We are resurrected with a body to meet the conditions of that kingdom. So what happens to the resurrected body. There are bodies Celestial, and bodies Terrestrial, etc.I see what you mean, but on the other hand, I can't imagine that that would be the limitation . . . that there is some way that the body is unmalleable by its spirit (disobeys its spirit). I mean, right now, our bodies disobey our spirits constantly. But I think we are supposed to be progressing on that.D & C 88 has an interesting discussion (I focused on verse 27), but all the surrounding verses are amazing. Also in Alma 11:45, the wording is interesting. (Both places talk about being raised to a spiritual body . . . are we trying to help our bodies become spiritual? I don't know. Still figuring all that out.)If I have a Telestial body now, I can always work out in an effort eventually to turn it into a Celestial body! Funny, but truer than you think?The Lord said that the glory of the telestial kingdom is far beyond anything we can imagine, so I disagree with this.And . . . you don't see that here? (Sunsets? puppies? people who thrive despite disabilities? etc?) Not to mention that from the point of view of the pre-mortal person choosing to come here . . . yea, I think we really wanted to come here precisely for that reason . . . glory beyond our imagination (from that spot).We existed for eons before we came here and the purpose to come here is to act out according to our passions. This is not a once in a life time opportunity to make it or break it, we prepared for this opportunity for an eternity and we were put in a situation to act out according to our nature. tomk gave a theory concerning the sons of perdition, but if we follow the doctrine that they will be eternally dammed, then why would they be cut off but those who were only marginally better?If there is progression between kingdoms then it begs the question, what is the point of obeying any of the commandments? We can just live a life of wickedness and always take comfort that 5 billion years from now we can always change our ways and go on to eternal glory.We are not here to show if we are good or evil. We are here to be cleansed from our weaknesses. We are not here to show our nature. We are here to progress in our nature. Do you show up to first grade expected to know calculus? Passing through mortality is only one piece of a very long puzzle, as you mention, we have been at this "becoming" business long before we came to mortality. Now, mortality IS a test. It is a very specific situation, a very specific effect on us as children of God . . . and we can "lose". I know, because I have. Even though I am beyond my past in some ways, I can never not be that person. I was that person. I did those things. I've moved on. God has helped my life to change. Things are better. But there's no do-over. But by the same token, passing through those hells (ohhh, there have been so many . . .) has provided knowledge to me which also I do not think I could have gotten any other way, and I am glad for the knowledge I have obtained. Strange, but I don't know any other way I can say that. (Not informational knowledge, transformational knowledge, and charity knowledge.)The point is an escape from the living death and captivity that comes from failing to love God and love our neighbors - an escape available here and now, not 5 billion years from now. Can't come fast enough, yea? they would never consider a wayward path even slightly alluring.It's fun to be good . Not that I am, even most of the time, but the fun parts of my life are the clean and good parts. So if someone hasn't been sealed in Celestial Marriage by the time he is resurrected this requirement for exaltation cannot be met.But who wouldn't do this? Given the opportunity to truly learn about it and enjoy it? but we are REWARDED based on "works". In other words, what kingdom we end up in is based on our righteousness- or works..I seriously disagree with this. I haven't framed my progression in terms of reward for years, and I haven't framed my living and my spiritual journey in terms of works. And I feel I have been taught to discard both of those concepts by continued study in the scriptures, temple and all that is offered in the Church .
rameumptom Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 I think it falls within the issue of how we interpret terminology. D&C 19 teaches us a new way to consider terms like "Eternal" and "Endless". The term "worlds without end" simply means cycles of creation, essentially the same as God's terms Eternal and Endless. That D&C 76 also teaches that those of higher kingdoms will descend to teach and serve those in lower kingdoms only makes sense if those of the lower kingdoms can be taught and change enough to rise above their current state. 1
Bikeemikey Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) Enoch was translated that he might not taste death.Not sure how that fits with the idea that he will "die" for a fraction of a second before being resurrected.The point here is that this is all language that we don't fully grasp.That said I don't know that we are made up of a spiritual body and a physical body that merge together.Given that our spirit is matter I am inclined to think that as we grow the matter comprising our spirit body changes over time. That is our spirit doesn't live in a celestial body at the time of exaltation, rather it becomes a body of more perfect matter.Perhaps this means no movement between kingdoms - perhaps not.(null) Edited February 26, 2012 by Bikeemikey
Deborah Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 D & C 88 has an interesting discussion (I focused on verse 27), but all the surrounding verses are amazing. Also in Alma 11:45, the wording is interesting. (Both places talk about being raised to a spiritual body . . . are we trying to help our bodies become spiritual? I don't know. Still figuring all that out.)There is that oft quoted phrase that we are spiritual beings having a physical experience. I do think that we are trying to get our bodies more in tune with our spirits and I think the body begins to reflect what kind of spirit we are nourishing.yea, I think we really wanted to come here precisely for that reason . . . glory beyond our imagination (from that spot).I've done quite a lot of road trips and I'm continually amazed at the beauty of this world. If we can take away the ugliness and the evil it would indeed be a glorious place.We are not here to show our nature. We are here to progress in our nature. I agree and disagree. On the one hand God knows our nature, but I wonder how well we know ourselves and our actions in this life can show us to ourselves who we truly are. Hopefully we will be progressing but not everyone chooses to do this.But who wouldn't do this? Given the opportunity to truly learn about it and enjoy it?I think there are many people who would not choose to live this. I've known a couple of LDS people who never wanted to marry and even said they would rather be ministering angels. One of the hardest lessons I learned when my daughter chose a lifestyle completely foreign to everything she had been taught was that what makes her happy is not what makes me happy. I think that will apply into the eternities.
Deborah Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 That D&C 76 also teaches that those of higher kingdoms will descend to teach and serve those in lower kingdoms only makes sense if those of the lower kingdoms can be taught and change enough to rise above their current state.Can you show what verses talk about this. I didnt' see them, though I have often heard taught that those in a higher kingdom will be able to visit those in a lower kingdom though not the other way.
mercyngrace Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Can you show what verses talk about this. I didnt' see them, though I have often heard taught that those in a higher kingdom will be able to visit those in a lower kingdom though not the other way.Deborah,Check out D&C 76:86-88.
Deborah Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Check out D&C 76:86-88.Yes, but those are only referring to what I already said about the higher kingdoms being able to visit the lower kingdoms. To minister to someone is to give them comfort and to teach but that doesn't even imply it would be to the end purpose of allowing a person already resurrected to be resurrected again. It was the same principle of Christ sending others to teach the spirits in prison. He didn't go himself as they could not abide his presence.I agree that we don't fully understand the resurrection and all that it implies but we certainly have had many scriptures and teachings from leaders that this life is the time to prepare to meet God, this life extending into the spirit world after death and before resurrection.
mercyngrace Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Deborah,I don't think those verses necessarily indicate progression either, I think rameumptom was inferring that teaching would be pointless if there was no progression. That's a reasonable inference.
Deborah Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 I don't think those verses necessarily indicate progression either, I think rameumptom was inferring that teaching would be pointless if there was no progression. That's a reasonable inference.Except that we minister to those who are sick and dying even though we know that our ministrations will do nothing more than give comfort for a little while.I believe that by the time someone is resurrected he will have had every opportunity to accept or reject the fullness of the gospel. I just don't believe everyone will have the desire to do so. We see that in this life with people who have received the gospel, even had a testimony of it and spiritual experiences that go with it and then they reject it for whatever reason.
Calm Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) One can also teach someone to make the best of what they have; that does not mean they will automatically get more.For example, I am not talented at piano playing. With a great deal of effort I will be able to perform at a decent technical level (hopefully someday). My daughter OTOH is talented and already plays with inspiration in a way I will probably never be able to achieve.One can also use the example of intelligence...an apt analogy for spiritual progression. Someone who is average intelligence can gain a huge amount of knowledge and even understand how to apply it a great deal but will never be able to attain the level of understanding and manipulation of knowledge as someone at a genius level.So there could be great value in teaching those of the lower kingdoms even if their inhabitants were never able to progress beyond them. Edited February 26, 2012 by calmoriah
mercyngrace Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 Except that we minister to those who are sick and dying even though we know that our ministrations will do nothing more than give comfort for a little while.I believe that by the time someone is resurrected he will have had every opportunity to accept or reject the fullness of the gospel. I just don't believe everyone will have the desire to do so. We see that in this life with people who have received the gospel, even had a testimony of it and spiritual experiences that go with it and then they reject it for whatever reason.I can't speak for Rameumptom - but for my part, I agree that by the time someone is resurrected they will have had every opportunity to accept or reject the gospel...
mercyngrace Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 One can also teach someone to make the best of what they have; that does not mean they will automatically get more.For example, I am not talented at piano playing. With a great deal of effort I will be able to perform at a decent technical level (hopefully someday). My daughter OTOH is talented and already plays with inspiration in a way I will probably never be able to achieve.One can also use the example of intelligence...an apt analogy for spiritual progression. Someone who is average intelligence can gain a huge amount of knowledge and even understand how to apply it a great deal but will never be able to attain the level of understanding and manipulation of knowledge as someone at a genius level.So there could be great value in teaching those of the lower kingdoms even if their inhabitants were never able to progress beyond them.That's certainly one way to see it but I don't see that this makes the concept of ministering with the purpose of progress any less reasonable.
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