Alan Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 I have always been pretty open to the idea of God inspiring Christians of many denominations. I think of William Wilberforce, Eric Liddle, Billy Graham and many others. I have no problem with the concept of God inspiring Christians in situ. But what about God actually directing people into various Christian churches? In effect, calling them to their ministry there. I would be very interested in your views and insights.
Peppermint Patty Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Alan,Great post. I see nothing wrong with God calling people to other religions if they can help more people by doing so. For example, the Roman Catholic Church has extensive infrastructure in India. Mother Teresa probably wouldn't have been able to receive the support she needed from the LDS Church to run her 610 missions in India. 2
jwhitlock Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 I think the basic principle is that God will not inspire or call anyone to join something that would move them away from Him. Membership in another church may be an intermediate step that a person is inspired to do, but I don't think it would typically be an end in itself. God does inspire and direct people that are not members of the church, and can and does direct them so far as they are willing to receive that direction.
rodheadlee Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) I think the basic principle is that God will not inspire or call anyone to join something that would move them away from Him. Membership in another church may be an intermediate step that a person is inspired to do, but I don't think it would typically be an end in itself. God does inspire and direct people that are not members of the church, and can and does direct them so far as they are willing to receive that direction.This is how is was for us. We were inspired to study with a church that taught us a lot about the Tribes of Israel and the promises to Abraham, Jacob and Joseph. By the time the missionaries came by in answer to a prayer as to what church should we join we were primed to read the Book of Mormon and join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- Day Saints. Edited February 19, 2012 by rodheadlee
zelder Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Alan,Great post. I see nothing wrong with God calling people to other religions if they can help more people by doing so. For example, the Roman Catholic Church has extensive infrastructure in India. Mother Teresa probably wouldn't have been able to receive the support she needed from the LDS Church to run her 610 missions in India.My thoughts exactly.
zerinus Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 I have always been pretty open to the idea of God inspiring Christians of many denominations. I think of William Wilberforce, Eric Liddle, Billy Graham and many others. I have no problem with the concept of God inspiring Christians in situ. But what about God actually directing people into various Christian churches? In effect, calling them to their ministry there. I would be very interested in your views and insights.D&C 84:46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.That said, I am inclined to agree with jwhitlock, that under certain conditions God may inspire someone to a ministry in another church as an intermediate step; but I don’t believe that He would inspire them to oppose the Restored church, as many ministers of other churches do. That opposition is of the adversary, not of God.
Calm Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Membership in another church may be an intermediate step that a person is inspired to do, but I don't think it would typically be an end in itself.Membership in the LDS church is an intermediate step as well if you think about it. (see the ladder quote in my sig)
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 As we talked about in our lesson today God can say whatever he wants to whomever he wants. It is not our place to place bounds on what the Almighty may choose to do. 1
CV75 Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) I have always been pretty open to the idea of God inspiring Christians of many denominations. I think of William Wilberforce, Eric Liddle, Billy Graham and many others. I have no problem with the concept of God inspiring Christians in situ. But what about God actually directing people into various Christian churches? In effect, calling them to their ministry there. I would be very interested in your views and insights.I think there are distinctions between God sending forth His light to all and His actively calling someone to a specific work, and between someone acting upon the Light of Christ as he receives it through his own filters and God’s sending forth His servants. In any case, no good work should be disparaged and only those with the proper keys should judge.So I don’t think God proactively calls people into other Churches or to be leaders in professing and exemplifying Christ as they understand Him. I do think such people are doing good works according to the light they have the opportunity to receive or are willing to receive. So many good things can be done for goodness’ sake that are not formally assigned by God.For example, I personally believe the Reformers were not called of God specifically, but that they of their own free will and choice were uniquely and particularly sensitive to the Light of Christ, and their works were acceptable to God and leveraged by Him in support of the Restoration, which He was going to perform anyway. I think it is only shorthand to say they were inspired or called of God; I think they rather had spiritual talents that made them receptive and successful in acting upon the same Light of Christ that he sheds upon us all.The scriptures I support this with are:From Moroni 7:16, “…the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; …every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.”D&C 1: 2 & 4, “…the voice of the Lord is unto all… And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.” D&C 33 is a good example that goes into some detail.From D&C 45:28, 19, “a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.”D&C 58:26, “For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.”Article of Faith 13Moroni 7:19, “search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.” Edited February 19, 2012 by CV75
jwhitlock Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Membership in the LDS church is an intermediate step as well if you think about it. (see the ladder quote in my sig)True enough, in the eternal scheme of things. Right here and now, there is no step after membership in this church (as it is currently organized) until one passes to the other side. I anticipate that will change in the not too distant future once Zion is established again. At that point membership in the church will become an intermediate (but necessary) step on the way to fellowship in a United Order Zion society.
Calm Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 True enough, in the eternal scheme of things. Right here and now, there is no step after membership in this church (as it is currently organized) until one passes to the other side. I anticipate that will change in the not too distant future once Zion is established again. At that point membership in the church will become an intermediate (but necessary) step on the way to fellowship in a United Order Zion society.Would not be the least bit surprised.
cdowis Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 A modern example is Peter Marshal, "A Man Called Peter". He performed a great work, bringing people to Christ, and his conversion experience was based on a miracle.
cinepro Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Frankly, if God is inspiring people to join (let alone start) non-LDS churches, than that turns the truth-claims of the LDS church into a farce. It also makes a joke of our massive expenditures in time and money on missionary work.The only inspiration God should be giving anyone when it comes to churches is "Find the nearest LDS ward and join it." If it's anything less than that, then we have made some serious mistakes in gauging the degree to which God cares about our doctrine and ordinances.But if we were to all agree that God might be inspiring truth-seekers to join non-LDS churches, then at the very least, I think we should be more honest with potential missionaries and their parents and let them know that, in spite of their efforts, faith, dedication and money, God may choose to inspire people in the future-missionaries' area to join other churches. Just so they know the degree to which God is committed to their success.When this subject has been brought up in the past, some have suggested that God may be using other churches as "stepping stones" or introductory experiences that will ultimately lead people to an acceptance of the LDS-taught gospel and ordinances. I don't accept this premise, since it requires a belief that there are some people out there who are seeking a religion and are open to revelation from God but for whom the LDS church isn't an ideal solution. But if that's true, than from a business stand point, that would mean the LDS church is missing out on serving some segments of the church-going market. That being the case, we should expand our brand and offer other religious experiences so we can appeal to those who are not looking for the LDS™ experience.It's kind of like McDonald's and Chipotle. McDonald's recognized that there are diners out there that are not looking for the traditional Big Mac and fries dining experience. They want something a little different, better and expensive. So instead of just writing off that segment of the market, they bought Chipotle and other non-burgers and fries restaurants, so when someone wanted a slightly better dining experience, they had another restaurant to choose from that still benefited the McDonald's corporation. In the last 10 years, McDonald's has made moves to divest itself of these non-McDonald's enterprises, but with something as critical as salvation at stake, the principle needs to be considered.So the LDS church should start other churches to appeal to these people whom God is inspiring to not join the LDS church. We could have a charismatic christian brand with drums and electric guitars during worship services for those whom God is inspiring to join "casual christian" churches. We could have a more formal "mass" type service to appeal to those whom God might inspire to join the Catholic Church. All of these could teach different versions of doctrine as a stepping-stone to the true doctrine which they just aren't ready for. This way, the LDS Church could serve all segments of the truth-seeking market place (and profit from them), and God wouldn't have to inspire people to join non-LDS affiliated churches. Edited February 20, 2012 by cinepro 2
jwhitlock Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Frankly, if God is inspiring people to join (let alone start) non-LDS churches, than that turns the truth-claims of the LDS church into a farce. It also makes a joke of our massive expenditures in time and money on missionary work.The rest of this is not really worth responding to, since it reveals a rather shallow understanding of LDS doctrine. Suffice it to say that if the situation were as limited to the options cinepro claims, there would be no Terrestrial or Telestial kingdom. It would just be heaven or hell. God does indeed take into account what people's capabilities are and where they feel most comfortable; to say that He just cuts them off if they're not going to join the LDS church is to deny the love of God for all of His children.
altersteve Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) cinepro, I absolutely believe many other religions are, to at least some degree, inspired by God. Adherents to the Catholic Church, Islam, Buddhism, and so many others have made such an impact on the world in terms of serving God's children, and all sincere acts of kindness are, ultimately, done for and inspired by our Heavenly Father. Remember, when we serve others, we are in the service of God, so how can we deny that other faiths who seek to do good are in the service of the same God that we are? And if we can't deny that, then how can we deny that their service is not something that God not only approves of, but also commands? And if we can't deny that, then how can we deny that these religions, even if they don't have a fullness of the truth, were founded, to at least some degree, by revelation and inspiration from the Spirit? And if we can't deny that, then how can we deny the possibility of God leading people to these religions to help increase their understanding, teach them how to serve others, and at least start to guide them in the right direction? I don't think any true Latter-day Saint can honestly deny any of those things, since it's quite clear that, ultimately, every religion does at least something, however small, to assist in bringing to pass the work and the glory of God. And this in no way turns LDS truth claims or our missionary work into a "joke.""[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves." Edited February 20, 2012 by altersteve
BCSpace Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 I think God can and does draw people into non LDS Churches in preparation or as part of their necessary path before joining the LDS Church (in this life or the next). Where it might turn the LDS Church's truth claims into a farce as per cinepro's statement is if one posits God drawing people from the LDS Church into another church.
Glenn101 Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 I think that this is all confusing. Does anyone have anything to back up either position? Would God call anyone into error?Glenn
cinepro Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) cinepro, I absolutely believe many other religions are, to at least some degree, inspired by God. Adherents to the Catholic Church, Islam, Buddhism, and so many others have made such an impact on the world in terms of serving God's children, and all sincere acts of kindness are, ultimately, done for and inspired by our Heavenly Father. Remember, when we serve others, we are in the service of God, so how can we deny that other faiths who seek to do good are in the service of the same God that we are? And if we can't deny that, then how can we deny that their service is not something that God not only approves of, but also commands? And if we can't deny that, then how can we deny that these religions, even if they don't have a fullness of the truth, were founded, to at least some degree, by revelation and inspiration from the Spirit? And if we can't deny that, then how can we deny the possibility of God leading people to these religions to help increase their understanding, teach them how to serve others, and at least start to guide them in the right direction? I don't think any true Latter-day Saint can honestly deny any of those things, since it's quite clear that, ultimately, every religion does at least something, however small, to assist in bringing to pass the work and the glory of God. And this in no way turns LDS truth claims or our missionary work into a "joke."We're not talking about people doing good things and acts of service, both of which I'm sure God appreciates and encourages.The question is whether or not He would lead a person to join another church instead of joining the LDS Church. Obviously, people living in times and places where there was no "true" church would have to be led to the best option available to them.But for those who live in an area served by an LDS ward or branch, under what conditions could God lead a truth-seeker to join and support a non-LDS church?Let's be more specific: suppose the missionaries were teaching a man, and after the fourth visit they ask him to pray about being baptized. Two days later, the man tells them that he prayed, and in answer to his prayer, he felt strongly inspired that he should join the Lutheran church. Do you believe such a scenario is possible, and if so, how likely?How about if he said he was told to join the Community of Christ? Or become Muslim? Or join Scientology? Are any of these scenarios less likely than the other? How so? Are there any limits to this generous ecumenism that we're attributing to God? Edited February 20, 2012 by cinepro
Mike Reed Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 I think that this is all confusing. Does anyone have anything to back up either position? Would God call anyone into error?GlennYou mean, like eating a forbidden fruit? No.
altersteve Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 We're not talking about people doing good things and acts of service, both of which I'm sure God appreciates and encourages.Read all of what I said. The fact that these religions teach true and good things, and have made a difference in the world and in the lives of the people they serve, should tell us that they are, to at least some degree, inspired by God, and not just appreciated and encouraged by Him.Let's be more specific: suppose the missionaries were teaching a man, and after the fourth visit they ask him to pray about being baptized. Two days later, the man tells them that he prayed, and in answer to his prayer, he felt strongly inspired that he should join the Lutheran church. Do you believe such a scenario is possible, and if so, how likely?How about if he said he was told to join the Community of Christ? Or become Muslim? Or join Scientology? Are any of these scenarios less likely than the other? How so? Are there any limits to this generous ecumenism that we're attributing to God?There are several possible reasons why God would inspired someone to join another faith. Maybe the person God wants him or her to marry is in that church. Maybe that church teaches something which The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not currently teach or emphasize and which God wants this person to know. Maybe the experience of being a member of this church will, in some way, help this person later on as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. Whatever the reason, if God wants someone to join a non-LDS faith, I'm sure He knows what He's doing. Church leaders have always taught that God operates in all faiths and that He inspires other religious leaders, teachers, and philosophers and has done so throughout history. He is the source of all truth, so any truth that can be found in another religion is of Him and is something that we need to recognize and embrace as our own doctrine. To suggest that God absolutely would not lead someone to other religions for any reason shows a complete disregard of this teaching, or a lack of understanding of it.I recommend this sacrament talk which I found a few months back, as well as the follow-up article below:http://burningbosom.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/developing-an-affirmative-gratitude-for-other-faiths/http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/12/why-mormons-are-buddhists-vice-versa/"The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.... Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal Welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father." 1
Libs Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) From an LDS perspective, I agree with Cinepro that God would not call someone into another religion..but, God can inspire and speak to people, from wherever they are, and in whatever religion they happen to be.My personal belief is that God is the inspiration for every religion that moves human-kind towards the good. Any religion can be a path back to God. So, yes, God does call people into religions other than LDS. Edited February 20, 2012 by Libs 2
mercyngrace Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 From an LDS perspective, I agree with Cinepro that God would not call someone into another religion..but, God can inspire and speak to people, from wherever they are, and in whatever religion they happen to be.My personal belief is that God is the inspiration for every religion that moves human-kind towards the good. Any religion can be a path back to God. So, yes, God does call people into religions other than LDS.By the same token, a religion, and even the LDS church, can be a path away from God if our affiliation becomes a source of pride, exclusivity, and self-service. The same faith that produced Peter, James, and John produced Caiaphas. 2
Libs Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 By the same token, a religion, and even the LDS church, can be a path away from God if our affiliation becomes a source of pride, exclusivity, and self-service. The same faith that produced Peter, James, and John produced Caiaphas.Absolutely.
Storm Rider Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 I think the basic principle is that God will not inspire or call anyone to join something that would move them away from Him. Membership in another church may be an intermediate step that a person is inspired to do, but I don't think it would typically be an end in itself. God does inspire and direct people that are not members of the church, and can and does direct them so far as they are willing to receive that direction.I disagree. We are often too linear in our thinking. First, man is that he may have joy. I know some LDS who lost their testimonies, but still believed in Jesus Christ and, thankfully, they found another spiritual home that continued to lead them into a stronger relationship with God. Our Father is not finished with an individual just because they join another church, he continues to guide and inspire. In addition, God uses people in all religions to do his will. Some people just cannot live as LDS for whatever reason and God leads them to a religion that may help them along their path. I do not think that God leads an active LDS to another Church. His purpose is to bring about our salvation and he never stops working to bring us as far as possible into his Kingdom.
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