“If You Could Hie To Kolob”

[cinepro]

There is no end to youth

What, exactly, does that mean?

[Alla]

What, exactly, does that mean?

May be: there is no end to posterity. Spirit babies, spirit todlers, spirit teenagers.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

May be: there is no end to posterity. Spirit babies, spirit todlers, spirit teenagers.

I am good with all but the teenagers.

[Brian 2.0]

Say you are asked this question honestly by a co-worker...

"you believe God has a physical body, right? So where is he now? Where does it live, if anywhere?"

would you say Kolob anywhere in your response?

I don't think I would.

[LeSellers]

"So where is [god] now? Where does it live, if anywhere?"

would you say Kolob anywhere in your response?

I would, except He does not live on Kolob—He lives near Kolob.

Lehi

[Garden Girl]

What, exactly, does that mean?

Hi cinepro...

I take the "There is no end to youth" to mean that we do not age as we do in this sphere but are always and forever at our prime...

GG

[Bernard Gui]

Hi Bernard.

Your reply puzzles me. How does this speak to my doubt regarding the pre-supposition of the opening post that non-LDS critics are "so angry" about this song or the concepts it expresses?

Just curious...the LDS belief that God would physically exist in a defined part of space seems to give heartburn to non-LDS Christians.

If one believes in the bodily resurrection of the Lord, does that body exist in space? If you don't care to respond, no worries.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Say you are asked this question honestly by a co-worker...

"you believe God has a physical body, right? So where is he now? Where does it live, if anywhere?"

would you say Kolob anywhere in your response?

I don't think I would.

Where do you think God is right now?

Bernard

[3DOP]

Just curious...the LDS belief that God would physically exist in a defined part of space seems to give heartburn to non-LDS Christians.

If one believes in the bodily resurrection of the Lord, does that body exist in space? If you don't care to respond, no worries.

Bernard

It is Catholic teaching that Christ will always retain His glorified body, and that the bodies of the Redeemed will also be glorified. This certainly implies physical locations. This is not a new question. There were those who struggled with this doctrine in the 13th Century. In the Summa Theologica St. Thomas answers a proposal that objects to the possibility that a body could dwell in the heavens:

Objection 5: ...we believe that Christ will dwell for ever in the place whither He has ascended. But what is against nature cannot last for ever, because what is according to nature is more prevalent and of more frequent occurrence. Therefore, since it is contrary to nature for an earthly body to be above heaven, it seems that Christ's body did not ascend above heaven.

The reply to Objection 5 acknowledges the difficulty of a natural body ascending into space...as we tend to say...and living there, but reminds the reader that the limitations of the natural body need not apply to a glorified body:

A glorified body has the power to be in heaven or above heaven. not from its natural principles, but from the beatified soul, from which it derives its glory: and just as the upward motion of a glorified body is not violent, so neither is its rest violent: consequently, there is nothing to prevent it from being everlasting.

---Summa Theologica, Part 3, Q. 57, art. 4

"

St. Thomas takes instruction from the fact that the glorified body of Jesus could walk through doors and ascend effortlessly into heaven. If the Ascension was effortless (non-violent) how much more a repose at the right hand of the Father? Jesus did not require "violence" to accomplish His motion. No axe was needed to enter the door, nor an engine to carry Him through the clouds, nor breathing apparatus in anticipation of a sudden environmental change. It seems to have been revealed that His motions were effortless and since there was nothing to hide, it seems safe to assume that Jesus needed no space suit into which He quickly changed immediately upon getting out of sight. Catholics hold that in His glorified body, Jesus doesn't have the environmental requirements that we all have now. If a glorfied body passes through a door, and glides effortlessly into the heavens without precautions against cold and lack of oxygen, why should we assume that a glorified body cannot endure in any physical environment?

So to answer your question, we hold that Jesus dwells in a place, but it does not necessarily mean an earthly environment, although it may. Any "anger" that I would hold regarding the Mormon doctrine that says Jesus lives on or near Kolob, would be if it is taught that Jesus MUST live in an earthly environment, agreeing with the flawed objection to which St. Thomas replied in the Summa.

[mapman]

This is one of my favorites...

I find the words hopeful, beautiful... comforting...

There is no end to virtue

There is no end to might

There is no end to wisdom

There is no end to light

There is no end to union

There is no end to youth

There is no end to priesthood

There is no end to truth.

If I could, I'd "hie" joyfully...

from the beach on a beautiful, sunny morning... this makes 2 in a row!!

GG

Some Kolob trivia -- The original words ended this way:

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being:--

Grim Death sleeps not above.

[why me]

CFR that critics have ever claimed the Church "hides the fact" about Kolob.

I would have to go back and check many threads on the few boards I have posted on. But I do know that I have to post the hymn from youtube when it was sung at a general conference that the kolob idea is still very much alive and not hidden.

[Bernard Gui]

It is Catholic teaching that Christ will always retain His glorified body, and that the bodies of the Redeemed will also be glorified. This certainly implies physical locations. This is not a new question. limitations of the natural body need not apply to a glorified body: ---Summa Theologica, Part 3, Q.

So to answer your question, we hold that Jesus dwells in a place, but it does not necessarily mean an earthly environment, although it may. Any "anger" that I would hold regarding the Mormon doctrine that says Jesus lives on or near Kolob, would be if it is taught that Jesus MUST live in an earthly environment, agreeing with the flawed objection to which St. Thomas replied in the Summa.

Thank you for your reply. The physical manifestation of Jesus to Joseph Smith would satisfy your criteria, so I assume you have no issues with God existing in a specific location in space such as Kolob?

Bernard

[3DOP]

Thank you for your reply. The physical manifestation of Jesus to Joseph Smith would satisfy your criteria, so I assume you have no issues with God existing in a specific location in space such as Kolob?

Bernard

You are welcome Bernard. In fact, I tend to speculate that our Lord resides in specific location such as Kolob.

My quibble with the thread would be the allegation that non-LDS are "so angry" about the Kolob revelation. I have been around for some time on this board and at ZLMB before that and think I have a fair record of acknowledging anti-Mormonism when it is manifested. But I can't say that I have ever seen anger or even frustration in regards to Kolob. Ridicule perhaps, and even unfair ridicule, but not anger. But my decision to post probably reflects my personal sense that sometimes some Mormons seem to me to be a little too whiny about how the world doesn't always accept LDS claims without vigorous and even satanic opposition. That's what we get when we claim to be the one true church! I am the one who voted a "one" for the opening post. It seems unbecoming of members of the one true church to exaggerate the supposed mad passions of some of us "Gentiles" who are just unconvinced. But I won't pursue my personal quibbles any further.

But since I answered your query, maybe you will answer my only real possible objection to the concept of Kolob as a residence for God. Do you hold that God will die if He can't breathe, or that He could be frozen if He stayed in space too long? Such a belief would reflect an inadequate view of the qualities of the glorified body from a Catholic perspective. Thanks. Kolob is fine, unless you think God or even us if we are glorified/exalted will require air, food, and moderate temperatures or else die.

Rory

[Arkholt]

I would have to go back and check many threads on the few boards I have posted on. But I do know that I have to post the hymn from youtube when it was sung at a general conference that the kolob idea is still very much alive and not hidden.

It's such a puzzling concept, though, that the Church is hiding it. Besides the fact that they would have to hide the hymn somehow, they would also have to discourage us from reading the Book of Abraham. Not sure how they've been going about doing that... I guess it's because they can't understand how an entire church actually believes something they think is so silly, so they think the majority of the Church doesn't actually know about it.

[DH]

I know some people who are skeptical about Kolob, but they aren't bothered by it, or make fun of it. Guess you "hang" with a different crowd than I do!

[Peter John]

Your poll deletes the valid answer. It is most controversial because of the line, "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity, find out the generation when gods began to be?" That is what non-Mormons find offensive. It is completely anti-thetical to most of the rest of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

It is also important to recognize that as a Latter-day Saint you do not just consider this a lovely song, you quite literally consider it a proscribed prayer (Doctrine & Covenants 25:12)

[USU78]

Your poll deletes the valid answer.

Are you quite sure this is what you meant to type?

It is most controversial because of the line, "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity, find out the generation when gods began to be?" That is what non-Mormons find offensive.

Are you quite sure this is what you meant to type? You are hardly in a position to speak for all "non-Mormons." In any event, it's hardly a novel Christian concept, since just about every Christian I'm aware of believes there are three G-ds, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Calling them "One G-d" is just a semantic game invented to answer radical monotheist Jewish and Muslim concerns about Christian polytheism.

It is completely anti-thetical to most of the rest of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

No, it's not. Every Christian is a polytheist.

It is also important to recognize that as a Latter-day Saint you do not just consider this a lovely song, you quite literally consider it a proscribed prayer (Doctrine & Covenants 25:12)

Are you quite sure this is what you meant to type? Or are you really a mindreader?

[Nathair/|\]

Your poll deletes the valid answer. It is most controversial because of the line, "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity, find out the generation when gods began to be?" That is what non-Mormons find offensive. It is completely anti-thetical to most of the rest of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

It is also important to recognize that as a Latter-day Saint you do not just consider this a lovely song, you quite literally consider it a proscribed prayer (Doctrine & Covenants 25:12)

If the hymn is proscribed, then we are in a lot of trouble for singing it in General Conference and in Sacrament Meeting and for producing Mormon Tabernacle Choir records containing it.

[Robert F. Smith]

I chose the first option, that "Joseph dared name a star, without checking with the “National Star Registry”". I chose it because it is closest to what I think, though not exact.

I think critics get a kick out of "Kolob" because it has a sci-fi feel to it. In their minds it lumps Joseph in with the likes of Ron L. Hubbard.

That's L. Ron Hubbard.

[Robert F. Smith]

If you want to check out the Mormon Curtain, the claim is made there.

On Mormon Mentality a similar claim is made, not outright hiding, but being deceptive about it.

That doesn't really deal with cinepro's request for actual citations.

On the other hand, are you suggesting that hieing to Kolob is tantamount to a Mormon version of the Rapture?

[Robert F. Smith]

IMO, that there is such a place as Kolob is one of the most wonderful concepts in LDS theology. That I could go there and then continue

on after this life to assist God in his magnificent works in the universe....

http://apod.nasa.gov...d/ap110511.html

no words can describe what this could be like. To have a share in the very being of God!

Bernard

d'accord, and we can give a name to such beauty! Qolob

Book of Abraham 3:2-3,9-10,16, and Fac 2:1, term Kolob as the greatest of all the stars, defining it specifically: 3:3, "the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me," and vs 16, "because it is nearest unto me."

The key word is "near," which in Classical Hebrew is equivalent to theophoric Qarob "The-Near-One" in Psalm 119:151 where it is in direct, synonymous parallel with Qedem "The-Primeval-One" in vs 152. (see M. Dahood, Psalms, Anchor Bible). The Arabic equivalent is qalb (plural qulub) "heart, center, soul, spirit," and this points up the common Afroasiatic root qrb/qlb, which appears in ancient Egyptian as q3b, and in Akkadian as qurbum, qerbum, all with the same basic meaning (A. Loprieno, Ancient Egyptian, 32).

As for the meaning in celestial mechanics, Fac 2:1 says that Kolob signifies "the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God," that is "[f]irst in government," and "the last pertaining to the measurement of time," which means "one day to a cubit" (= thousand years in Earth time) in "celestial time," which, according to facsimile 2:2, 4, is the same time-reckoning as at Oliblish and at God's throne/ residence. Three realms: Where are they?

Where would one celestial day pass while a thousand years passed here on Earth? What principle would allow time to be so relatively slow there and so fast here? Does physics (astrophysics) know of such a phenomenon? What of the time-dilation principle of Einsteinian mechanics at very high speeds?

Finally, where is time measured by the cubit? Marvin A. Powell has noted how the Sumero-Akkadian cubit was used “in the calculation of celestial distances” as late as the Seleucid period (Powell, RLA, VII:458, citing JCS, 21 [1969], 201:17-20), and is applied to the measurement of time as well: A cuneiform Hittite text from ancient Boghazköy, Anatolia, reads "when the day has 'turned' two cubits" (CAD "A" I:74 j). At the same time, the Sun, Moon, and planets move through the twelve signs of the Zodiac at the rate of about one degree (ki) per day, or 30 degrees per zodiacal sign, through the annual 360̊ ecliptic – an ancient Mesopotamian concept (Alexander Jones, “The Horoscope Casters,” in J. Meinhardt, ed., The Origins of Things [Washington, DC: BAS, 2002], 48).

In the world of Abraham these were known and accepted concepts

[Calm]

That doesn't really deal with cinepro's request for actual citations.

Guidelines--no links to sites with temple content on them.

On the other hand, are you suggesting that hieing to Kolob is tantamount to a Mormon version of the Rapture?

Not me.

[cinepro]

I think critics get a kick out of "Kolob" because it has a sci-fi feel to it. In their minds it lumps Joseph in with the likes of Ron L. Hubbard.

And a big thank you to Glen Larson for that!

[Rivers]

I think its because it sounds so science fiction- like.

[Rivers]

Its not only Kolob that is strange. It is the primitive astronomy described in Abraham chapter three. The whole idea of all these stars borrowing light from each other is a bit strange to modern ears.

I never appreciated Abraham 3 until an institute teacher described it as an object lesson that teaches us about our relationship with God.