Good people, leaving the church

[Scott Lloyd]

Har har. The point is that on an average of twice a month I get e-flyers for various IT-related conferences, conventions, presentations etc. which have nothing whatsoever to do with the Church, and they invariably focus on the substantive content of what I'm going to hear; any recreational stuff is either not mentioned at all, or else it is properly treated as peripheral.

Evidently when exmos get together, no-one really has anything important to say; the booze-up is the content.

Regards,

Pahoran

I agree with Pahoran's observations here. Maybe it's PR consciousness or perhaps just plain human nature, but ex-Mormons in general do seem to put on a different face for a sympathetic audience than they do when talking to believers.

At least that's the view from here.

[Mark Beesley]

Within the last year or so there have been a number of published polls showing that the American public's view of the Mormon Church and Mormons is increasingly negative.

Do you have an references for any of this crap.

What polls?

Where are they published?

The "I'm a Mormon" ads, many of which featured mainly untypical Mormons (including motorcycle enthusiast and a professional photographer who had published images of nudes), have apparently not helped the situation much either, although it may be too early to really gauge the effects of this campaign.

What is a typical Mormon? And remember, there are nearly 14 million of us worldwide. So, so ahead typifiy us, I dare ya.

[Scott Lloyd]

These people are simply practicing their freedom to choose. They are seeking for happiness wherever they can find it. There are many reasons people leave the church. I think the church needs to gain more awareness about the historical and scientific issues and stop say its always because they're offended or they want to sin.

What makes you think "the church" is unaware of "the historical and scientific issues"?

Perhaps a more pertinent question is this: Who or what do you mean by "the church"?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I'm not upset....I'm just infatic!!!

I have not problem with you sharing you beliefs, I love to learn the beliefs of others. As Christians we are all taught that concept from the Savior.

I just don't buy into the premise that you have to tear down your old belief system to advance your new beliefs....that's of course if you are secure in your own faith. Or that by reaching out....that controversy has to arise. Why does there have to be controversy? Beside, my comments are also in general to those who leave for all the reasons that have been brought up on this thread. We haven't even mentioned those who leave because they don't want to commit their time or attention to the gospel. Many are not willing to put time restraints on their lives which goes along with serving in the gospel. Many are very good people but these excuses IMO are just lame.

And I see no need for a song and dance called "Blame Shifting" to share your own beliefs. If you or anyone else left the Church for whatever reason then so be it. If you want to share your new beliefs as you say, then do it. These are two totally different activities. I would hope that our new converts don't go back to their old faiths and blame them with all sorts of excuses of why they became members of the LDS Church. I would hope that they, on their faith journey, share when and where they can their new found testimony of the truths they now have and avoid all controversy.

I personally feel saddened for those who have lost their testimony and have left and I pray they will come back someday. The gospel is such a jewel of unimaginable worth in my life. I just don't buy into all the excuses given for leaving the Church. And if I sound impatient in my views then I apologize. But the history one is the hardest to understand for me. Like I said before, if the Church ever taught: "our history is infallible" then a case could be made....but that is just not how it is. History (just by its nature) can never make those claims.

I don't believe you are understanding my point.

I, as a RLDS Restorationist, still believe in the Book of Mormon, the Restoration of the Priesthood, Zion, Three Degrees of Glory, etc... In order for me to share my beliefs with LDS folks I have to share what makes my beliefs different from the traditional Mormon beliefs. Unfortunately, for you, and many like you, you see that difference of opinion as "tearing the church down." Unfortunately, for me their is no other way for me to share my particular Gospel perspective.

So I am left with a quandary...

- Don't witness of my beliefs to my LDS brothers and sisters, because it may offend them, but then be offending God by not warning my neighbor

- Witness to my LDS brothers and sisters, even though I know they will be offended, but not offend God by my lack of witness.

[Scott Lloyd]

Do you have an references for any of this crap.

What polls?

Where are they published?

Perhaps 44Foxtrot has in mind the disturbing findings of Gary Lawrence. Please see this link for reference.

That said, I question 44Foxtrot's assertion that Americans' view of Mormons is "increasingly" negative. I think it's more a matter of their view of Mormons not being as positive as we had thought or hoped it was.

But, if 44Foxtrot can show evidence of a trend of "increasingly" negative public image about Mormons and Mormonism, I invite him/her to do so.

[Jeff K.]

Typical, tosses out all kinds of things hoping some of it will stick.

[thesometimesaint]

Scott Lloyd:

Not to get political. I don't see any big change, either way, in the EV population. But IF Brother Huntsman gets in the race for POTUS it may be a game changer for the other Christians in this country.

[Mark Beesley]

Perhaps 44Foxtrot has in mind the disturbing findings of Gary Lawrence. Please see this link for reference.

That said, I question 44Foxtrot's assertion that Americans' view of Mormons is "increasingly" negative. I think it's more a matter of their view of Mormons not being as positive as we had thought or hoped it was.

But, if 44Foxtrot can show evidence of a trend of "increasingly" negative public image about Mormons and Mormonism, I invite him/her to do so.

That's the point. One poll can not show an increase. You need at least two with some pretty rigid parameters to show an "increase." My experience, in Sunny Southern California is just the opposite. While most people have a negative view, that negativity is on the decrease. I have no polls, and my experience is not scientific. But this point is just as persuasive as 44Foxtrot's unsupported assetion.

I had an interesting experince not long ago. A couple of women came to the door. They were evangelizing for a local Christian congregation. They asked if I had a Church that I went to, and the one sister remarked, "Well then, I know you believe in the Bible. Can I give you some literature?" I accepted it, and they departed with no accusations of Mormons not being Chrisitans, etc.

[california boy]

Fair enough.

I think the detailed studies show that most Americas know little to nothing about Mormonism which makes judgments about the accuracy of the ads fairly unreliable.

And while I do grant that the church and its members are viewed unfavorably, I don't think the efforts of the ex-mormon community have the kind of impact you suggested. I think ignorance, politics, cliquishness, and negative portrayals on t.v. (Big Love, the FLDS incident, etc) are the culprits.

Speaking as someone who lives well beyond the city gates of Salt Lake and who gets to talk about the church with non-members day in and day out, I just don't think the ex-mormon community is a blip on the radar. Most people I know (in and out of the church) have probably never even heard of FAIR, FARMS, or Sunstone much less an ex-mormon website.

I also agree with your point especially your last couple of lines. There is only a small percentage of ex-Mormons that feel the need to tear down the church. Most ex-Mormons that I come in contact with have no illfeelings towards the church. It is more like a shared experience that is felt. I rarely talk to an ex-Mormon that have made it their life mission to speak badly against the church.

By far, the bad feelings against the church have come from actions the church itself has taken. There is much more negative feelings towards the church over Prop 8 and the churches preceived homophobic attitudes then anything ex-Mormons have ever done. It was on the news nightly in California for months during the election and it still has not gone away. Every time a Utah senate votes down a bill that would prohibit discrimination against gays, is reported in the california papers. Every time a church leader says something antigay, it is in the papers. The articles have an overtone of "see the Mormon church is still homophobic"

It has been over 30 years since the 1978 revelation on blacks and the priesthood, and that issue has more than ever bubbled back to the surface because of prop 8. Discriminating aginst gays reinforces this racist view in a lot of peoples mind. For most people outside the Utah bubble, the church is looked upon as not being very inclusive at best and homophobic,racist and bigoted at worst. Even members who live in California I don't think know the extent of the animosity toward the church. Their non member friends are not going to say to them that they belong to a bigoted church. That image has not come from any ex-Mormons that have left the church. Few people know the history of the church. Few people know little of the doctirne of the church. Most people know the church is very pro family. And most people know the church is antigay. Personally, I think the churches image was much better when they focused on the family rather than attacking gay marriage.

[cinepro]

I agree with Pahoran's observations here. Maybe it's PR consciousness or perhaps just plain human nature, but ex-Mormons in general do seem to put on a different face for a sympathetic audience than they do when talking to believers.

At least that's the view from here.

Sure they do.

But then again, even Prophets tailor their message for the audience when the cameras are rolling. It might be deception, or good communication skills, or maybe just human nature.

[MorningStar]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

This thread just sounds like an excuse to plug the site. Can we tell the "quality" of people by a short video? No. In fact, you can't always tell the quality of people you know for years and they can shock you when you find out what they are capable of. Trying to prove why you really left the church is pointless and often comes off as an attempt to drag other people with you.

[Scott Lloyd]

Sure they do.

But then again, even Prophets tailor their message for the audience when the cameras are rolling. It might be deception, or good communication skills, or maybe just human nature.

The point being there is some reason to be skeptical about one's claim to being the same clean-living paragon one was prior to one's apostasy.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This thread just sounds like an excuse to plug the site. Can we tell the "quality" of people by a short video? No. In fact, you can't always tell the quality of people you know for years and they can shock you when you find out what they are capable of. Trying to prove why you really left the church is pointless and often comes off as an attempt to drag other people with you.

I think the point of this thread is.... Can the folklore that all people who leave the church are drunken fornicators who just want to live a lifestyle of less rules and regulations, be left in the dustbin of history? Can it now be admitted that good sincere people have left for sincere reasons having to do with history and/or doctrine?

[mercyngrace]

I think the point of this thread is.... Can the folklore that all people who leave the church are drunken fornicators who just want to live a lifestyle of less rules and regulations, be left in the dustbin of history? Can it now be admitted that good sincere people have left for sincere reasons having to do with history and/or doctrine?

In my experience, very few of the people I know who've left the church are drunken fornicators who just want to live a godless life (though I do know a couple of those). Very few I know have left over historical issues or matters of principle. Most just wander away because their roots in the gospel are shallow and they never really assimilated in the first place. Angry exmormons are probably statistically invisible compared to the sheer numbers we lose just to long-term inactivity.

[cinepro]

The point being there is some reason to be skeptical about one's claim to being the same clean-living paragon one was prior to one's apostasy.

I would recommend to always be skeptical about someone's claim to being a clean-living paragon, regardless of which religion they currently or formerly belonged to. That just seems to be common sense.

It also would seem to be common sense that if someone were part of a group that told them not to eat green M&Ms and they then left that group, they might start eating green M&Ms. But it wouldn't mean that the reason they left the group was because they wanted to eat green M&Ms. But I also wouldn't be surprised if members of the group assumed that was the reason if they saw the person subsequently eating green M&Ms, if only as a way to avoid thinking about any other reasons the person may have left the group. After all, if the person hadn't left solely to eat green M&Ms, what else could it be?

But I guess we can't count on common sense being as common as we would like.

[MorningStar]

I think the point of this thread is.... Can the folklore that all people who leave the church are drunken fornicators who just want to live a lifestyle of less rules and regulations, be left in the dustbin of history? Can it now be admitted that good sincere people have left for sincere reasons having to do with history and/or doctrine?

Sometimes people lose faith through trials. I know people who leave because they just can't handle certain members anymore. I know a guy who left because he didn't feel his father was punished by the church severely enough for his sins. I don't see them as drunken fornicators who wanted to live in sin. Whatever the reason, it certainly doesn't help the image of ex-Mormons when they decide to take up drinking, fornicating, and other things after they leave. My uncle brought up historical issues, but it's hard to take him seriously because he's an alcoholic now and cheated on his wife. My aunt talks about historical issues, but she left because she was the victim of sexual abuse and it was handled poorly. And it's also not believable to me when people struggling with their sexual orientation later embrace that lifestyle and claim they left because of historical issues. That is a pretty major thing to deal with and not have your testimony affected already.

[44Foxtrot]

Perhaps 44Foxtrot has in mind the disturbing findings of Gary Lawrence. Please see this link for reference.

That said, I question 44Foxtrot's assertion that Americans' view of Mormons is "increasingly" negative. I think it's more a matter of their view of Mormons not being as positive as we had thought or hoped it was.

But, if 44Foxtrot can show evidence of a trend of "increasingly" negative public image about Mormons and Mormonism, I invite him/her to do so.

In response to the CFR, consider a 2007 poll from the Pew Research Foundation that was conducted specifically to determine American attitudes towards Mormons. In this poll, 53% of those interviewed reported a favorable impression of Mormons, while only 27% reported an unfavorable impression.

An interesting indicator published in this poll was the frequency of use of specific terms in describing and discussing Mormons. The findings were that negative words such as polygamy, and cult were used much more often than were positive words such as devout and good by those polled in describing Mormons.

Moving forward to 2010, and taking numbers from a Mormon pollster (Gary Lawrence) addressing the same question, (as reported in the Mormon Times and elsewhere) the numbers have pretty much inverted with 49% reporting an unfavorable impression of Mormons and only 37% reporting a favorable impression.

There are also other indications including the increasingly unfavorable reporting related to Mormons and their activities in the media and especially those related to doctrine and expressed attitudes towards gays such as here or very recently, here from BKP.

It seems pretty clear from these polls, one of them taken by a Mormon pollster specifically for the Church, that a large segment of the population has an unfavorable impression of Mormons and that this trend has worsened since 2007.

In looking for significant events that would explain this precipitous drop, one need look no further than the 2008 Prop 8 fiasco and the associated expression of irrational homophobia by the leadership of the Church. Many of my colleagues believe that the Church acted illegally in their suport of Prop 8 and would like to see legal action taken so as to send a message to other religious corporations that might be tempted to engage in political activities that should lead to the recission of their tax exempt status.

[ttribe]

In looking for significant events that would explain this precipitous drop, one need look no further than the 2008 Prop 8 fiasco and the associated expression of irrational homophobia of the leadership of the Church.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Many of my colleagues believe that the Church acted illegally in their opposition to Prop 8...

I assume you meant "support" rather than "opposition".

Additionally, why is it you think your anecdotal evidence is meaningful in this context?

...and would like to see legal action taken so as to send a message to other religious corporations who might be tempted to engage in activities which should lead to the recission of their tax exempt status.

Oh please...one question - have you actually read the applicable IRC section in question here? Were you to do so, I think you'd quickly recognize why this argument is a non-starter.

[california boy]

Assumes facts not in evidence.

I assume you meant "support" rather than "opposition".

Additionally, why is it you think your anecdotal evidence is meaningful in this context?

Oh please...one question - have you actually read the applicable IRC section in question here? Were you to do so, I think you'd quickly recognize why this argument is a non-starter.

Are you making the suggestion that Prop 8 has not affected the image of the church???

[ttribe]

Are you making the suggestion that Prop 8 has not affected the image of the church???

No. Perhaps you could point to something in my post that would even imply that.

My comments were made to point out the faulty assumptions underlying the argument, not the conclusion thereof.

[maupayman]

I think the point of this thread is.... Can the folklore that all people who leave the church are drunken fornicators who just want to live a lifestyle of less rules and regulations, be left in the dustbin of history? Can it now be admitted that good sincere people have left for sincere reasons having to do with history and/or doctrine?

Partly so, it is also to see if people are seeing an increase in the amount of sincere believers, leaving the church in recent years, as I have been seeing.

[ttribe]

Partly so, it is also to see if people are seeing an increase in the amount of sincere believers, leaving the church in recent years, as I have been seeing.

Could this also be a function of becoming more aware of the phenomenon rather than an actual change in the phenomenon?

[maupayman]

Could this also be a function of becoming more aware of the phenomenon rather than an actual change in the phenomenon?

Without a doubt, hence asking to see if others are also seeing this trend. I'm not trying to make the claim that this is a trend, i'm asking if others are noticing what I have.

[mercyngrace]

edit: This comment was in further response to BOML's query about seeing members who leave as sinners. Kids interrupted and it looks like the moment has passed but I'll leave it up anyway in case someone finds it useful

Hopefully this won't sound like it's coming from too far out in left field but I wanted to add it because I personally think it's relevant.

My 12 year old goes to the internet to research every product purchase. This kid is unbelievably responsible with money. The other day he came to me and said "Mom, why is it that people seem less likely to give good reviews of a good product?" I responded that I didn't know but had also noted this behavior in real life. People will talk all day about the mechanic that cheated them, the quack doctor who misdiagnosed, or the new gadget that failed to live up to it's promos. They will stand outside of a used car lot with a poster warning about the dealer selling 'lemons' but how many people have you seen parking their cars in front of a car lot with a sign that says "These guys do you right"?

I think it is just human nature to talk about those investments we've made that, for whatever reason, failed to meet our expectations. The level of our response is usually comparable to the level of our investment/commitment. If the drug store overcharges me by a dollar, I'll shrug it off. If they overcharge me by $10, I'm driving right back and I'll make sure I know the name of the employee who screwed up so I can warn my friends to check their receipts carefully. You get the point.

Anyway, I guess the reason I feel sympathy with people who leave the church regardless of the reason is that I understand what it feels like to make a huge investment and feel shortchanged after the fact. Whether I misread and misunderstood the product specs or whether there was a bait and switch matters little in the end. What matters is how I feel. And the best response, IMO, any of us can have to someone so disillusioned, is to listen with Christ like love and patience. Most of the time, people just need to be heard. And in my experience, the harder we try to convince people that they were at fault, the more entrenched and defensive they become. In which case, we've done more harm than good.

fwiw,

MnG

[thesometimesaint]

BookofMormonLuvr:

I really can't get into other peoples heads. But as I don't have a testimony of Church History, or Science.