Good people, leaving the church

[maupayman]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

As someone pointed out in an earlier discussion, I believe the ever increasing availability of information coming from the internet will slow baptismal rates and cause more to "lose their faith".

I am also one who left the LDS Church over historical reasons and doctrines. I am, however, unique (though there are others) in that I didn't lose my testimony of the Book of Mormon. Which made my journey out of the LDS Church significantly easier.

So, I still loudly proclaim the truth of the Book of Mormon, the restoration of divine authority, and the promise of a future Zion- I just do so with a different perspective then before.

[Duncan]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

i don't know who or what to define as a "good" person but we had a couple join the Church maybe 3 years ago now from a very stronb mennonite background and they came to everything, married in the Temple, spoke at Stake Conference met all these General Authorities in SLC for conference, he was the Ward Mission Leader and she was something else callingwise but he stopped coming cuz he was sick or something and she worked sundays so they were very nominally active if that and then they quit altogether and now he is healthy enough to join another Church, they had concerns supposedly about doctrine all of sudden, I don't know exactley. I have the feeling though that they would be very active in their next church and the do the same there as they did in our Church, but hey great people if they come back the door is open!

[ERMD]

Good people have been leaving the church since it was formed.

I just think they leave for "not good" reasons.

[Senator]

Do you see a trend?

No.

I live in a heavily LDS populated area, and I see no such trend.

But then again, what is your criteria for determining a trend?

Since the inception of the church, "good" people (whatever that means) have left it, and will continue to leave. Some of those same "good" people will also return to it.

Many "bad" people will also continue to join the church and make an affective change in there lives.

In other words, I don't get your point...

[BCSpace]

I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin.

This is always true as the scriptures say unbelief is sin. Plus the parable of the sower, etc.

The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations.

If that's what unbelief leads to, I'd say this is almost always true. I often come across those who ostensibly left for doctrinal or historical reasons talking about their first time experiences with these other sins or seeking advice on how to start and what's best etc.

[cinepro]

It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

The only people who know anything about church-wide trends are the statisticians in the Church Office Building, and they aren't talking.

If you're looking for localized anecdotal evidence, I can only offer my personal observations that each ward I've lived in for the past 15 years has had at least 2 or 3 people (or families) that left the Church. I would consider all of these people "good" in that they appeared to be honest, clean, and had good senses of humor.

Most of the converts I've seen baptized into the Church over that time have either stopped attending shortly thereafter, been noticeably mentally unstable, or been in a part-member family.

I've actually "met" two people in online forums who ended up being in my ward and were on their way out of the Church. Sometimes it can be a very small world.

The net effect of the internet on the Church will only be known years from now. I suspect it will prove to be a "negative", but I can see ways in which it might be considered a net positive. But I do think the existence of the internet and the ease with which the warts of Church history and doctrine can be found will work to change the kind of person most likely to accept the gospel and be baptized.

[Hannah Rebekah]

Someone mentioned this alread, there have always been a trend from the beginning of members for various reasons leaving the Church. Those at the time of the Restoration did not have the history to blame it on. They were the history. When one thinks about the Leaders at the time of the dedication of the Kirtland Temple and the visions, their version of the Pentecost, half of those leaders eventually left the Church. So what do you blame this fact on? They had seen visions the same as Laman and Lemual. I think it has more to do with the heart and not the head, sorry, that's just my opinion and sometimes some just need an excuse to make sense of their choices. If they use their head to make sense of things, i.e. history then are they using faith to overcome the deficiencies? If they had just stayed in longer, maybe the Lord would have given them the blessings they might have needed if they had endured to the end. Look how many left the Church over the Salamander letter only to find out it was a fraud. But then then some turned that one around and blamed it on the Prophet who should have known it was a fraud because he is suppose to have prophetic abilities. Hum....how about we take responsibility for our own inability to understand. I know many of the problems of the history and it doesn't make a difference to me for a number of reasons. History is not infallible just like we are not, nor are our leaders. To think it should be, IMO, is the first grievous mistake. And some who are thinkers who are very intellectual have a hard time with faith...that's just the plain truth. It's a concept that is so foreign to them but that intellectual knowledge is not. God, can't be known by intellectual knowledge only through spiritual knowledge and faith. Don't mean to put anyone down but that is just the way that I see it. Those types who are feelers also have their limitations and can be chased from the Church over hurt feelings and pride....or over milk....if you know what I mean. We can learn something from each others and our weaknesses and strengths if we just give it a chance.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues.

Thanks all in advance.

Does this mean they are leaving Christianity for historical reasons as well?

[Pahoran]

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this?

No.

The funny part about the "drink and have sex" point is that every single exmo I've ever spoken to has hotly and indignantly denied it when speaking to Latter-day Saints. Get them talking among themselves and a different picture emerges.

I'm not merely talking about people like Paul Osborne, who brags daily about his consumption of Jack Daniels and cigars, not to mention his solo recreational activities. I'm talking about an exmo "conference" that was held in SLC a few years back. I read the promo material for that event; it devoted more space to licking its literary chops over the "open bar" than it did to talking about the speakers on the programme.

Is this a concern for believers?

No.

Regards,

Pahoran

[cinepro]

I'm not merely talking about people like Paul Osborne, who brags daily about his consumption of Jack Daniels and cigars, not to mention his solo recreational activities. I'm talking about an exmo "conference" that was held in SLC a few years back. I read the promo material for that event; it devoted more space to licking its literary chops over the "open bar" than it did to talking about the speakers on the programme.

That makes no sense. Even if they've left the Church, they should still retain their ability to get really excited over speakers on a program.

[Palerider]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

I think the "you were just bad anyway" innuendo has been applied pretty frequently here (by some, not all) and other places, which is something I anticipated. The funny thing is except for the questions regarding believing Joseph to be the prophet of the restoration and supporting the general authorities, I could pass a temple recommend interview with no problems after eight or so years of disbelief in the restoration.

I think it was Elder Packer who mentioned one time that the church had an endless source of talent from which to draw for filling positions in the church. I wonder if that will continue to hold true in years to come............?

[Pahoran]

That makes no sense. Even if they've left the Church, they should still retain their ability to get really excited over speakers on a program.

Har har. The point is that on an average of twice a month I get e-flyers for various IT-related conferences, conventions, presentations etc. which have nothing whatsoever to do with the Church, and they invariably focus on the substantive content of what I'm going to hear; any recreational stuff is either not mentioned at all, or else it is properly treated as peripheral.

Evidently when exmos get together, no-one really has anything important to say; the booze-up is the content.

Regards,

Pahoran

[rongo]

I don't see a trend, at least in my corner of the vineyard. I met with a member last night who requested that her name be removed from Church records, but she was my first one in four years of being a bishop.

It happens, sure, but I personally see no evidence of a stampede to the exit. And I think that this supposed stampede has been predicted and insisted upon for decades.

Another thought is that apostasy, falling away, leaving the Church, etc. has happened in all eras of Church history. Including the Dispensation of the Meridian of Time (Jesus), and first-generation Christianity. It happens, even in "golden eras" and under the best of circumstances and conditions.

[maupayman]

Good people have been leaving the church since it was formed.

I just think they leave for "not good" reasons.

Fair enough, do you think more people are leaving now, over historical issues etc. than in earlier history of the church?

[CV75]

Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

I think that you are in good, bad, and "cheesy" company--all types come into, stay or leave the church. With regards to any decision made on any basis that would rob them of exaltation, believers and the elect are counseled to "watch and pray".

[Pahoran]

I think it was Elder Packer who mentioned one time that the church had an endless source of talent from which to draw for filling positions in the church. I wonder if that will continue to hold true in years to come............?

The trickle of people leaving the Church is about to swell to a flood that will reverse the tide of its growth. At least, that's what the exmo's tell us, and especially what they love to tell each other. I believe the first exmo to express this view left the Church in 1831 or thereabouts. It is a constant article of the unfaith of the Latter-day Ain'ts.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Palerider]

No.

The funny part about the "drink and have sex" point is that every single exmo I've ever spoken to has hotly and indignantly denied it when speaking to Latter-day Saints. Get them talking among themselves and a different picture emerges.

I'm not merely talking about people like Paul Osborne, who brags daily about his consumption of Jack Daniels and cigars, not to mention his solo recreational activities. I'm talking about an exmo "conference" that was held in SLC a few years back. I read the promo material for that event; it devoted more space to licking its literary chops over the "open bar" than it did to talking about the speakers on the programme.

No.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran,

I don't know what your geographical location is but if it were possible I would love to meet and talk to you personally if only for the opportunity to look you squarely in the eye and have you declare that you see sin, of the nature you are referring to, in me. I think you would be sorely disappointed.

It must bring some sort of comfort to you mentally to assign these behaviors across the board to all who leave the church.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think the "you were just bad anyway" innuendo ....

I have never once heard this ever brought up about an ex mo.

I have seen certain people's pride get in the way. I have seen people leave for very dumb reasons such as "wanting to drink their jack daniels" or "to have sex with Molly". Other leave over what they preceive as historical issues.

But I have never heard anyone claim that some one was just bad anway and or that they were inherntly evil and that is the reason they left.

What is interesting is those that have left, how much they brag about being able to "do what ever they want now".

[rongo]

Fair enough, do you think more people are leaving now, over historical issues etc. than in earlier history of the church?

Proportionately, the apostasy/attrition rate was much, much worse in "ancient Mormonism" (Missouri and Ohio) than it is in "modern" times. Rough Stone Rolling has some good data in this regard. In many ways, it's a miracle that the Church survived at all the way that it has --- the serious damage inflicted by large number of defections (and the quality of the defectors) should have administered the coup de grace, by conventional wisdom. Yet, we're still here, strong and sound.

[maupayman]

Do you see a trend?

No.

I live in a heavily LDS populated area, and I see no such trend.

But then again, what is your criteria for determining a trend?

Have you noticed more sincere members leaving over historical issues in recent years, than say 10-15 years ago?

Since the inception of the church, "good" people (whatever that means) have left it, and will continue to leave. Some of those same "good" people will also return to it.

Many "bad" people will also continue to join the church and make an affective change in there lives.

In other words, I don't get your point...

By good, I mean members that were sincere in their beliefs, but can no longer believe, as opposed to people who clearly just want to party etc.

[maupayman]

This is always true as the scriptures say unbelief is sin. Plus the parable of the sower, etc.

If that's what unbelief leads to, I'd say this is almost always true. I often come across those who ostensibly left for doctrinal or historical reasons talking about their first time experiences with these other sins or seeking advice on how to start and what's best etc.

Right, but there's a difference between a person who runs out to the bar, the first night possible and someone who eventually gives it a try because he no longer thinks that God cares if he has a budweiser.

[maupayman]

Does this mean they are leaving Christianity for historical reasons as well?

Most of them, including myself, yes.

[rodheadlee]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

I thnk it's ironic that so many throw away what I can't obtain. I have a testimony of all that is required to get a TR but I cannot quit smoking. It is the most terrible addction I have ever tried to conquer. I truly believe the Church of Jesus Christ -Latter Day Saints is HIS Church and that the doctrine of eternal marriage is true and beautiful. Yet many toss it aside for the precepts of men.

Matthew:

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Deception is the main tool of Satan. It's up to each and every individual to see to his own Salvation through a testimony of the Holy Spirit.

So, who has been decieved? You or I?

[maupayman]

No.

The funny part about the "drink and have sex" point is that every single exmo I've ever spoken to has hotly and indignantly denied it when speaking to Latter-day Saints. Get them talking among themselves and a different picture emerges.

I'm not merely talking about people like Paul Osborne, who brags daily about his consumption of Jack Daniels and cigars, not to mention his solo recreational activities. I'm talking about an exmo "conference" that was held in SLC a few years back. I read the promo material for that event; it devoted more space to licking its literary chops over the "open bar" than it did to talking about the speakers on the programme.

No.

Regards,

Pahoran

Again, this may be an issue of timing. In my case, I didn't drink for almost 3 months after I left the church, but now I do enjoy it. I would say it played no role in my desire to leave the church, but has become something that I do socially. I agree that many people do leave for this reason though.