Good people, leaving the church

[maupayman]

I don't see a trend, at least in my corner of the vineyard. I met with a member last night who requested that her name be removed from Church records, but she was my first one in four years of being a bishop.

It happens, sure, but I personally see no evidence of a stampede to the exit. And I think that this supposed stampede has been predicted and insisted upon for decades.

Fair enough, again i'm talking more of the quality of members leaving and their reasons for leaving, not just grand totals.

Another thought is that apostasy, falling away, leaving the Church, etc. has happened in all eras of Church history. Including the Dispensation of the Meridian of Time (Jesus), and first-generation Christianity. It happens, even in "golden eras" and under the best of circumstances and conditions.

Right, but i'm sure the reasons for the strong members leaving has changed throughout time.

[maupayman]

Proportionately, the apostasy/attrition rate was much, much worse in "ancient Mormonism" (Missouri and Ohio) than it is in "modern" times. Rough Stone Rolling has some good data in this regard. In many ways, it's a miracle that the Church survived at all the way that it has --- the serious damage inflicted by large number of defections (and the quality of the defectors) should have administered the coup de grace, by conventional wisdom. Yet, we're still here, strong and sound.

Good point, I was thinking more relative to 10-15 years ago.

[Senator]

Have you noticed more sincere members leaving over historical issues in recent years, than say 10-15 years ago?

I have been sitting here for the past ten minutes, searching my memory trying to isolate those that I know that left the church over historical issues.

My search results: 0

Serioulsy! I can't come up with a single example.

[Palerider]

Pahoran,

"The funny part about the "drink and have sex" point is that every single exmo I've ever spoken to has hotly and indignantly denied it when speaking to Latter-day Saints. Get them talking among themselves and a different picture emerges."

Nice attempt to poison the well here. So according to you, anything I say here must be considered a lie because I'm speaking to LDS.

[maupayman]

I have been sitting here for the past ten minutes, searching my memory trying to isolate those that I know that left the church over historical issues.

My search results: 0

Serioulsy! I can't come up with a single example.

Fair enough, so that would be a no for your experience.

[sjdawg]

The trickle of people leaving the Church is about to swell to a flood that will reverse the tide of its growth. At least, that's what the exmo's tell us, and especially what they love to tell each other. I believe the first exmo to express this view left the Church in 1831 or thereabouts. It is a constant article of the unfaith of the Latter-day Ain'ts.

Regards,

Pahoran

I am sure it will prove to be next to impossible to reverse the tide of the current 1.42% growth rate.

[sjdawg]

I have been sitting here for the past ten minutes, searching my memory trying to isolate those that I know that left the church over historical issues.

My search results: 0

Serioulsy! I can't come up with a single example.

You can count me as one.

[Palerider]

You can count me as one.

Count me in.....

[SilverKnight]

Have you noticed more sincere members leaving over historical issues in recent years, than say 10-15 years ago?

By good, I mean members that were sincere in their beliefs, but can no longer believe, as opposed to people who clearly just want to party etc.

I know a few.

About half would qualify as sincere, believing, clean-living, morally upright mormons prior to their leaving..

Yes, learning about church history on the internet certainly contributed to their exit.

But their apostasy did not happen in a vacuum.

There are countless contributing factors besides learning about church history on the internet - though for many that was the straw that broke the camels back.

All of them have deep issues that were factors before internet:

- An active self-righteous father who was a hypocrite and sexual abuser.

- A tragic death of a child.

- A massive worldview paradigm shift that did not allow for 'one true church'

- An immediate family member came out gay

This has lead me to believe that critical information on the internet is merely one contributing factor among many reasons people leave.

And might I add, that every person I know that has left is much happier now.

The notion that true, lasting happiness is found only in the church is complete nonsense.

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

"The funny part about the "drink and have sex" point is that every single exmo I've ever spoken to has hotly and indignantly denied it when speaking to Latter-day Saints. Get them talking among themselves and a different picture emerges."

Nice attempt to poison the well here. So according to you, anything I say here must be considered a lie because I'm speaking to LDS.

No, not according to me.

I'm not accusing anyone of lying; I'm simply pointing out that in situations like this, I observe exmo's describing their apostasies in the most Noble, Courageous, Disinterested, Heroic and TRVTH-Seeking terms that language can sustain.

It's not usually considered "lying" for people to portray themselves in the best light they can; that's really just normal human nature.

When the situation changes, and they are no longer trying to pose for their virtual statues, another aspect emerges.

And I will add this: when the exchanges get heated, and they start venting about what makes them resent the Church the most, the topic of obedience to commandments nearly always takes centre stage.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Senator]

And then there are people, such as myself, who have issues with the church (historical, or otherwise), yet have no desire or reason to leave it.

[Mortal Man]

I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

An intellectual apostate is someone who's desire for the truth exceeds his desire to believe. There will never be a mass exodus of these people from the church because only a very small percentage of the population ever crosses this threshold. The vast majority will never bother to look into the history or think critically about the texts. They naturally avoid anything that would challenge their faith. When confronted with troublesome information, they tell themselves: (A) it's an anti-Mormon lie, (B) there's no way to know what really happened, and/or

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

An intellectual apostate is someone who's desire for the truth exceeds his desire to believe. There will never be a mass exodus of these people from the church because only a very small percentage of the population ever crosses this threshold. The vast majority will never bother to look into the history or think critically about the texts. They naturally avoid anything that would challenge their faith. When confronted with troublesome information, they tell themselves: (A) it's an anti-Mormon lie, (B) there's no way to know what really happened, and/or

[SilverKnight]

And then there are people, such as myself, who have issues with the church (historical, or otherwise), yet have no desire or reason to leave it.

Anyone who delves into the dark and murky depths of church history and lingers there for any amount of time usually comes out forever changed.

Naivete and fundamentalism seem togo out the door, and a more progressive, nuanced method of looking at the world emerges.

Even apologists come out more thoughtful, introspective and less dogmatic.

A great example of this is Richard Bushman. He comes across as a kind and deeply spiritual man (he's a patriarch IIRC), but you just get the feeling he's not a dogmatist and takes a more philosophical view of the church, religion and god - rather than the rigid authoritarian absolutism you hear from many church leaders.

So yeah, in my experience, a trip through the mormon history 'house of horrors' makes one emerge an 'Internet Mormon' at best.

I guess that's a good thing.

[Palerider]

No, not according to me.

I'm not accusing anyone of lying; I'm simply pointing out that in situations like this, I observe exmo's describing their apostasies in the most Noble, Courageous, Disinterested, Heroic and TRVTH-Seeking terms that language can sustain.

It's not usually considered "lying" for people to portray themselves in the best light they can; that's really just normal human nature.

When the situation changes, and they are no longer trying to pose for their virtual statues, another aspect emerges.

And I will add this: when the exchanges get heated, and they start venting about what makes them resent the Church the most, the topic of obedience to commandments nearly always takes centre stage.

Regards,

Pahoran

I disagree,

Good try though.

I think you made it and now you must wear it.

[Fly Fisherman]

I wonder if an ex-Mormon will ever confront somebody with information about the Church telling them why they left. Including introducing somebody with the ex-Mormon's version of Church history. Then that person will look into it for himself and do a personal study of the history of the Church - meet with members, read some of the Joseph Smith papers, or whatever, and join the Church. That person can then say "I joined the Church "for historical reasons" and find out that the "real" history of the Church isn't anything what the ex-Mormons told me".

[Mortal Man]

You left out another option. Those that have looked at the evidence and the so called issues and don't see any issues.

No intellectually honest person has ever looked at the history and texts and claimed there aren't "any issues."

Are you really telling MM that DCP and other like him don't "look into the history or think critically about the texts."

I was speaking about the proverbial "most people." Professional apologists are in a different category.

Is that really the story you want to run with?

I only run with Truth Mola, and she is a jealous mistress.

I think some of what you say is just as true as "people that leave the church just want to sin".

I'm sure that "sin" is a motivation for some people.

and last I heard you were still a member that still attends and holds a calling.

Yup, and I get up early to drive my kids to seminary.

[mnn727]

I don't have atestimony of the history of the Church.

I have a testimony of the Church itself.

So why would historical issues bother me?

Everyone is human and makes mistakes except for Christ Himself, so if one of the Prophets made a mistake that's not reason enough for anyone to lose their testimony.

Sorry, just don't see it myself.

[Deborah]

History is not infallible just like we are not, nor are our leaders. To think it should be, IMO, is the first grievous mistake.

I couldn't agree more with your points.

History is as subject to bias as anything else. That is more true of LDS history than almost anything, especially since our side of the story is so sketchy due to not really writing a lot of stuff down. Much of it is second and third hand anecdotes. We are just now sifting through all the documents we do have and telling our side of the story. People who want to leave the church will find a reason and history is as good an excuse as anything.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No intellectually honest person has ever looked at the history and texts and claimed there aren't "any issues."

Which I have never claimed and did not claim. Some people might claim that but they are far and few between.

I was speaking about the proverbial "most people." Professional apologists are in a different category.

Which was my point, you left out that group.

I only run with Truth Mola, and she is a jealous mistress.

Ha.

I'm sure that "sin" is a motivation for some people.

Which again was my point.

Yup, and I get up early to drive my kids to seminary.

I brought you up because you are yet in a different category than what you listed.

Good times.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Count me in.....

Me as well. (Though, as I wrote in my earlier post, I still believe in the Book of Mormon, Restoration, Zion, etc...)

[44Foxtrot]

I know a few.

<snip>

And might I add, that every person I know that has left is much happier now.

The notion that true, lasting happiness is found only in the church is complete nonsense.

Silver Knight,

Thank you for a candid (and probably deeply unpopular on this board) observation.

I know a lot of ex-Mormons. They are, as you state and without exception, much happier after leaving the Church.

Were some damaged by the experience of leaving? Yes.

Do some wish that their spouses or loved ones had not remained behind in the Church? Absolutely.

Are some of them grateful for their upbringing in the LDS Church? Yes (including me).

Would any of them ever think seriously about going back to the Church? Not for a microsecond.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Silver Knight,

Thank you for a candid (and probably deeply unpopular on this board) observation.

Why would any of us on this board be unhappy with some one elses happiness? I have always maintained that if people find happiness out side the church then good for them. I had people leave the church on my mission. They were happier. I was glad for them but sad at the same time. What SK said was not some new revelation.

[jadams_4242]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

And every other religon that has ever been on this earth was absolutely perfect in its actions correct?

[MorningStar]

I don't know what counts as a "good person" leaving. What are the criteria for that?