Good people, leaving the church

[blueadept]

I just don't buy into the premise that you have to tear down your old belief system to advance your new beliefs....

IMO, this works both ways. I've been in a couple of LDS testimony meetings where I knew the member was a convert from Catholicism and they belittled their previous faith (misconceptions each time) while bolstering their LDS testimony. Since it's not my church I let the comments go. On a couple of those occasions, I was asked by a couple of them if I took offense. I simply said no thinking to myself, it's your church, say what you want.

I'm glad I don't need to deal with this issue anymore.

[Sky]

Are those ex Mormon profiles broadcast or just on youtube?

I'm not sure about that...sorry. Try the link and see what you can find.

[44Foxtrot]

The creators of this website clearly got their idea from the 'I'm a Mormon' profiles on Mormon.org. It was our idea first, but I guess they thought they needed some attention and airtime, too. And I must say, for people who supposedly have left the Church, they sure seem obsessed about it. If I were to truly move beyond Mormonism, I would try to do it more quietly and respectfully, and not disparage those who continue to believe (is this even possible)?

The creators of the I am an ex-Mormon website did get their idea from the I'm a Mormon ads that are found on Mormon.org and as paid media advertising for the Church. They felt, and justifiably so, that the slick PR efforts of the Church needed to be balanced with some facts about the substantial downsides of Mormonism.

They saw the Church looking like a large Corporation (which it ultimately is) trying to polish a badly tarnished image with an media blitz. They considered the damage that belief in Mormonism does to people's lives and decided to provide information about the effects of belief in Mormonism that the Church failed to provide itself.

In my opinion, and apparently that of most Americans, the creators of the I am an ex-Mormon website are providing a much needed public service.

[mercyngrace]

In my opinion, and apparently that of most Americans, the creators of the I am an ex-Mormon website are providing a much needed public service.

Foxtrot,

Sorry if I missed something earlier in the thread, but can you show that "most Americans" even know about the site? Does the site itself claim such? I visited it and read several of the exit stories but I might have missed this claim.

Thanks,

MnG

[blueadept]

The creators of the I am an ex-Mormon website did get their idea from the I'm a Mormon ads that are found on Mormon.org and as paid media advertising for the Church. They felt, and justifiably so, that the slick PR efforts of the Church needed to be balanced with some facts about the substantial downsides of Mormonism.

They saw the Church looking like a large Corporation (which it ultimately is) trying to polish a badly tarnished image with an media blitz. They considered the damage that belief in Mormonism does to people's lives and decided to provide information about the effects of belief in Mormonism that the Church failed to provide itself.

In my opinion, and apparently that of most Americans, the creators of the I am an ex-Mormon website are providing a much needed public service.

The notes that state what that site is about states

Our new weekly video series is dedicated to sharing the stories of those who have courageously followed their own path out of Mormonism. We hope that their struggles and accomplishments will help others to have compassion and respect for those who have made this journey.

I sort of viewed the approach of that site more like AA where the individuals state they have a problem and want to change. Obviously members wouldn't see it as a problem but as stated, it's a site where 'We hope that their struggles and accomplishments will help others to have compassion and respect for those who have made this journey.'

Making major changes in one's life is never easy. Sharing that journey (whether you agree with it or not) is part of the healing process.

My 2 cents

[blueadept]

I've read and seen enough conversion stories that work both ways between Catholicism and the LDS faithful and haven't been impressed with most of them. This site looked better than average from my experience whether you agree with the conversion stories or not.

[blueadept]

Foxtrot,

Sorry if I missed something earlier in the thread, but can you show that "most Americans" even know about the site? Does the site itself claim such? I visited it and read several of the exit stories but I might have missed this claim.

Thanks,

MnG

I agree with the CFR on that one.

Good Morning MNG....

[mercyngrace]

I agree with the CFR on that one.

Good Morning MNG....

Morning, Blue :wave:

[44Foxtrot]

Foxtrot,

Sorry if I missed something earlier in the thread, but can you show that "most Americans" even know about the site? Does the site itself claim such? I visited it and read several of the exit stories but I might have missed this claim.

Thanks,

MnG

MnG,

I was referring to the fact that most Americans apparently do not agree that the view of Mormonism that is portrayed in the I'm a Mormon ads is accurate or balanced.

Within the last year or so there have been a number of published polls showing that the American public's view of the Mormon Church and Mormons is increasingly negative. Some Mormons have opined that this is partially a result of the Church "moving to the right" to garner favor from the Evangelicals - a move which these individuals admit did not work. The Mormon Church and Mormons remain deeply disliked by a large cross section of Americans. The reasons for this are varied, but association in the public's mind with the FLDS, Prop 8, the blatant homophobia publicly expressed by Boyd K. Packer and other missteps by Church leaders has not helped the situation.

The "I'm a Mormon" ads, many of which featured mainly untypical Mormons (including motorcycle enthusiast and a professional photographer who had published images of nudes), have apparently not helped the situation much either, although it may be too early to really gauge the effects of this campaign.

[blueadept]

MnG,

I was referring to the fact that most Americans apparently do not agree that the view of Mormonism that is portrayed in the I'm a Mormon ads is accurate or balanced.

I believe the site clearly states what their purpose is. Personally I have no issues with their stated purpose.

I don't agree with your personal viewpoint of Americans not agreeing with the LDS media blitz in portraying memebers as more normal people. They're not just the white shirts who show up at your door.

[Monster]

If people come the the conclusion that the church is a construct of men why would they stay? At that point the benefits of the community may not be sufficient to compensate for the other costs of remaining active. If you are really not going to get all those promised blessings then what is the point?

Personally I think sin is not the main factor in the majority of people leaving the church today. Besides all the crazy history issues what does the church really provide other than promises for the average member. The church is a 19th century organization trying to maintain a foothold in the 21st. It may well become irrelevant in the lives of many members except for the very devout. And then it does not even have the zest and zeal of the early church. It has become a methodical drudgery for many members who find activity tedious. That may sound harsh but I hear it from so many people I think it is an issue. To just blame the individual for lack of faith is a simple way to place blame away from the church.

[nicolasconnault]

MnG,

I was referring to the fact that most Americans apparently do not agree that the view of Mormonism that is portrayed in the I'm a Mormon ads is accurate or balanced.

Within the last year or so there have been a number of published polls showing that the American public's view of the Mormon Church and Mormons is increasingly negative. Some Mormons have opined that this is partially a result of the Church "moving to the right" to garner favor from the Evangelicals - a move which these individuals admit did not work. The Mormon Church and Mormons remain deeply disliked by a large cross section of Americans. The reasons for this are varied, but association in the public's mind with the FLDS, Prop 8, the blatant homophobia publicly expressed by Boyd K. Packer and other missteps by Church leaders has not helped the situation.

The "I'm a Mormon" ads, many of which featured mainly untypical Mormons (including motorcycle enthusiast and a professional photographer who had published images of nudes), have apparently not helped the situation much either, although it may be too early to really gauge the effects of this campaign.

I'm sure you are expecting a CFR on these polls you mention, so here you go. I'm dubious because, according to another poll I recently read, the majority of US citizens don't have a clue about the Mormon Church, besides perhaps having heard its name. If the first things they ever heard about the LDS Church was in relation to the prop 8 media coverage, then you can't really say that their opinion has decreased, because they didn't have an opinion before then! Remember that less than 1% of US citizens are Mormons, that's a pretty small minority!

How many "Americans" have seen the "I'm a Mormon ad", in your opinion, or according to your statistical sources?

[mercyngrace]

MnG,

I was referring to the fact that most Americans apparently do not agree that the view of Mormonism that is portrayed in the I'm a Mormon ads is accurate or balanced.

Fair enough.

I think the detailed studies show that most Americas know little to nothing about Mormonism which makes judgments about the accuracy of the ads fairly unreliable.

And while I do grant that the church and its members are viewed unfavorably, I don't think the efforts of the ex-mormon community have the kind of impact you suggested. I think ignorance, politics, cliquishness, and negative portrayals on t.v. (Big Love, the FLDS incident, etc) are the culprits.

Speaking as someone who lives well beyond the city gates of Salt Lake and who gets to talk about the church with non-members day in and day out, I just don't think the ex-mormon community is a blip on the radar. Most people I know (in and out of the church) have probably never even heard of FAIR, FARMS, or Sunstone much less an ex-mormon website.

[Jeff K.]

Ex Mormons who are also anti Mormons depend on the ignorance of the populace in order to engage in bigotry. Generally those who aren't members (here in Southern CA) know very little of the Mormon Church. The tragedy is when they encounter someone with an axe to grind who dresses their anger in a veneer of "scientific" objectivity.

The Ex Mormon (of which we are addressing the smaller subset the "anti") community only has impact when people literally "want" to know something bad about the Mormons and are indifferent to the source materials objectivity or truthfulness. It is one reason they fail miserably and usually are considered little more than statistical outliers in the scheme of things. Kind of like a tinfoil hat feng shui gone bad with last weeks salmon.

[maupayman]

And every other religon that has ever been on this earth was absolutely perfect in its actions correct?

Well you clearly missed the point of the thread. Maybe you should just sit this one out.

[maupayman]

You seem, maupayman, to have some kind of need to distinguish your personal apostacy from that of earlier apostates who just weren't as 'quality' or as 'strong' as you or whose 'reasons' weren't as valid as yours are.

I wouldn't put it that way. I have noticed that there are two general groups of people, that leave the church. Again, this is just my own anecdotal experience.

1. People who were not very commited to the church, partied, drank etc. and drift away from the church.

2. People who were sincere believing members, encountered historical issues, or something like the prop 8 issue and have become disillusioned with or lost their belief entirely.

In my life, until about 4 years ago, I had only known people that fit into group 1. In the last five years I have become aware of probably 15 people, from my friends and acquaintances, who fit into group 2. This is why i'm wondering if this is a trend, or just coincedence. One example of this would be that when I first told most of my mission friends that I was leaving the church, two of the best missionaries that I knew, both were very successful zone leader and one replaced me as the Assistant to the president, told me that they also no longer believed in the church, for similar reasons. Again, just my experience, but it seems to happening more and more around me.

[maupayman]

Tell us, PR: is there any possible way for you to be any more condescending?

I had to laugh when I saw Pahoran call somebody condescending....wow

[ERayR]

I wouldn't put it that way. I have noticed that there are two general groups of people, that leave the church. Again, this is just my own anecdotal experience.

1. People who were not very commited to the church, partied, drank etc. and drift away from the church.

2. People who were sincere believing members, encountered historical issues, or something like the prop 8 issue and have become disillusioned with or lost their belief entirely.

In my life, until about 4 years ago, I had only known people that fit into group 1. In the last five years I have become aware of probably 15 people, from my friends and acquaintances, who fit into group 2. This is why i'm wondering if this is a trend, or just coincedence. One example of this would be that when I first told most of my mission friends that I was leaving the church, two of the best missionaries that I knew, both were very successful zone leader and one replaced me as the Assistant to the president, told me that they also no longer believed in the church, for similar reasons. Again, just my experience, but it seems to happening more and more around me.

Type two is simply a subset of type 1. You seem to conflate activity with commitment.

[44Foxtrot]

Fair enough.

I think the detailed studies show that most Americas know little to nothing about Mormonism which makes judgments about the accuracy of the ads fairly unreliable.

And while I do grant that the church and its members are viewed unfavorably, I don't think the efforts of the ex-mormon community have the kind of impact you suggested. I think ignorance, politics, cliquishness, and negative portrayals on t.v. (Big Love, the FLDS incident, etc) are the culprits.

Speaking as someone who lives well beyond the city gates of Salt Lake and who gets to talk about the church with non-members day in and day out, I just don't think the ex-mormon community is a blip on the radar. Most people I know (in and out of the church) have probably never even heard of FAIR, FARMS, or Sunstone much less an ex-mormon website.

MnG,

As one who also lives well beyond the SLC City Gates (or more importantly far beyond Utah Valley), I would agree with what you have said here, especially in your last two sentences.

It was not my intention to suggest that the ex-Mormon community ads would have a significant impact. I agree that their influence will probably be limited to individuals who may be curious about Mormonism and would go to the internet and its search engines to get their information. However, such people do comprise an important target audience for both the Mormon Church, which has business to transact (salvation in exchange for lifelong payment of tithing) and the loosely organized ex-Mormons who don't.

[Hamba Tuhan]

If you are really not going to get all those promised blessings then what is the point?

Why are people not getting all the promised blessings??!! To me, the great miracle of 'Mormonism' is that it absolutely delivers on its promises.

[W]hat does the church really provide other than promises for the average member[?]

• access to the Atonement of Jesus Christ
  
• efficacious ordinances
  
• companionship of the Holy Ghost
  
• access to priesthood power
  
• tongues
  
• prophecy
  
• revelation
  
• visions
  
• healings
  
• interpretation of tongues
  
• ministration of angels
  
• knowledge
  
• peace
  

I guess I must be an easy man to please. I'd only just begun my list, and it's already enough for me.

[Kevin Christensen]

Do I see a trend? I've see a constant, coming and going throughout my life, in every area that I have lived, all accurately described by one Jesus of Nazareth in his "parable of the sower," of which he said, "Know ye not this parable? How then will ye know all parables?"

The very same historical issues that some people cite as their reasons for disillusion and departure are well known to many who stay. Therefore, it should follow that the historical issues themselves do not explain the disillusion and departure. The soil and nurture, the ways we variously select, emphasize, contextualize, nurture, and value such issues make the difference.

It was my own trying to understand the comings and goings that started my own inquiries. My testimony flourishes.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[nicolasconnault]

Do I see a trend? I've see a constant, coming and going throughout my life, in every area that I have lived, all accurately described by one Jesus of Nazareth in his "parable of the sower," of which he said, "Know ye not this parable? How then will ye know all parables?"

The very same historical issues that some people cite as their reasons for disillusion and departure are well known to many who stay. Therefore, it should follow that the historical issues themselves do not explain the disillusion and departure. The soil and nurture, the ways we variously select, emphasize, contextualize, nurture, and value such issues make the difference.

It was my own trying to understand the comings and goings that started my own inquiries. My testimony flourishes.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I guess some plants like an acidic soil, while others like it alkaline

[Jeff K.]

I would say in Peter's day, much of the same issues were handed off and discussed via parchments and letters. Hmmm, maybe Peters letters could be combined into a small book in order to answer questions often repeated....

[Rivers]

A friend of mine recently started a website devoted to the stories of those who have left Mormonism:

http://www.iamanexmormon.com/

I watched a few of these videos, the other night, and was impressed by the sincerity and the quality of people that appear to be leaving the church over historical issues. I do admit, however, that some of them are cheesy, like the guy who got booted for making the missionary calendars. I and others are often accused of leaving the church for reasons of weakness or sin. The usual, "you wanted to drink and have sex" accusations. I also know that many people do leave the church for these reasons, though I was not one of them. I left over historical reasons and evidence that the church is not what it claims to be. It appears, from this site, that I am in good company. Would you agree with this? Is this a concern for believers?

Thanks all in advance.

These people are simply practicing their freedom to choose. They are seeking for happiness wherever they can find it. There are many reasons people leave the church. I think the church needs to gain more awareness about the historical and scientific issues and stop say its always because they're offended or they want to sin.

[thesometimesaint]

Rivers:

I know of no historical or scientific issues that need to be addressed by the Church. Leave them to the apologists.