Good people, leaving the church

[zerinus]

And you were?

Yes.

[consiglieri]

Yes.

Well, don't stop now.

Please elaborate.

I'm all agog.

Really.

[consiglieri]

Remember, Consig does not deal in faith. Someone should have taught Consig that the lack of evidence is not evidence.

You have it backward here, Jeff.

To believe that modern apostles have seen Jesus Christ in the absence of their having said so is to believe that lack of evidence is evidence.

[Jeff K.]

Have prophets and apostles seen and met with the God, we know scripturally in ancient and modern times they have. Is there something that states the windows of heaven are closed to the prophets of our generation? Not that I am aware of. Perhaps that is the hope of Consig or rather without evidence he thinks it to be true. Is that not hope? Should we all hope for such things? For those who are not LDS it would necessarily be a hope, since it would undermine their determination that we are wrong. I cannot divine the reason for those who claim membership in the church though, it appears to me to be counterintuitive.

You missed this part.

But then knowledge of Church History isn't your strong point.

[zerinus]

Well, don't stop now.

Please elaborate.

I'm all agog.

Really.

Luke 8

:

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[44Foxtrot]

Luke 8

:

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

I must say, zerinus, that I am a little disappointed in your response here. You had me all excited with the anticipation of gaining some new revelatory information. Your weak response here seems like a duck and a dodge to me.

Perhaps you owe consig. (and the rest of us) an apology. You clearly did not deliver what you indicated that you would

[Jeff K.]

I must say, zerinus, that I am a little disappointed in your response here. You had me all excited with the anticipation of gaining some new revelatory information. Your weak response here seems like a duck and a dodge to me.

Perhaps you owe consig. (and the rest of us) an apology. You clearly did not deliver what you indicated that you would

Disappointment is when something is less than you expected of them. We will never be disappointed in you Foxy. You are too predictable.

[Sky]

So you believe the modern apostles have seen Jesus because they haven't said they have seen Jesus?

I acknowledge that the modern apostles don

[44Foxtrot]

I acknowledge that the modern apostles don

[Sky]

And how exactly is Elder Scott's statement different from that of hundreds of thousands or millions of others who claim to know certain that their religious beliefs are true and reflect reality?

How can you say the beliefs of Elder Scott are more credible than those of individuals who's belief in their God is so strong that they stand ready to (and have) sacrificed their lives and the lives of others because they believe that is what their God would have them do?

It is one thing to declare your belief in the hereafter before an audience of adoring members. It is quite another to be so certain of your belief in the hereafter that you are willing to take your own life to get there.

Somehow I doubt that I will ever be able to answer your questions to your satisfaction, but all I can really say is that I choose to take Elder Scott at his word. I

[Palerider]

That is not what I think. And I don't think everyone leaves because of sin. I know lots of people who left or just dropped off because of things going on in their lives, which had nothing to do with being "screwed up." What I do think is that people for whatever reason give up on a lifetime of belief too soon after hearing stuff that doesn't jive with their perception of what the church should be. And btw I never believed in Santa. I always found the presents in the closet.

When I hear something that causes me to ask questions I have to look at it in context of what I do know. Do you really think that those of us who hold on to the church never had doubts or didn't ask questions? The difference is some things hold more weight than others, and as Hamba Tuhan pointed out a lifetime of experiences which have borne testimony of gospel truths outweighs some snippet of history or some action of a human being who isn't here to defend or explain himself.

I have also come to learn the more I do find out that "facts" change when new facts are found and that some "facts" are actually the writer's interpretation of events and not the actual event. The more that is being revealed, the more the claims of Joseph Smith and the church hold firm. However, it seems to me the critics still are sticking to those bits and pieces they've always depended on to attack the church.

Observing that some "brag" or appear to be protesting too much about their new found knowledge is not the same as calling a beloved prophet a flim-flam man. If you don't think there is bragging on the part of those who leave you haven't paid much attention here and elsewhere.

Oh....., I'm sorry...this wasn't your earlier statement?

BookofMormonLuvr, on 03 March 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:

Can it now be admitted that good sincere people have left for sincere reasons having to do with history and/or doctrine?

"Nope. In my very long time in the church I've known lots of people who've left, and not one of them left over history or doctrine. This is a fallacious argument because people were leaving the church long before we had the internet and all the anti sites so readily available. However, this makes a nice rationalization when people leave for other reasons. "Oh, look there are more than one version of the first vision. I was right in leaving the church. It must not be true. Now I can share my 'real' reason for leaving which is the history."

Guess I misread your meaning there........I apologize..........

[Jeff K.]

And how exactly is Elder Scott's statement different from that of hundreds of thousands or millions of others who claim to know certain that their religious beliefs are true and reflect reality?

How can you say the beliefs of Elder Scott are more credible than those of individuals who's belief in their God is so strong that they stand ready to (and have) sacrificed their lives and the lives of others because they believe that is what their God would have them do?

It is one thing to declare your belief in the hereafter before an audience of adoring members. It is quite another to be so certain of your belief in the hereafter that you are willing to take your own life to get there.

Why should we describe the differences of the colors blue and red to Helen Keller? Why should we explain the meaning of spiritual truth to someone who cannot see it?

[Deborah]

Oh....., I'm sorry...this wasn't your earlier statement?

And what does my earlier statement have to do with your statement that I think people "screwed up." I never said that. I said they have left for reasons other than history or doctrine, especially back when these anti sites were not so available. I've never known one to say it was because of history or doctrine. I have family members who left because of lifestyle and only later in researching found anti-Mormon material and begin openly opposing the church. I've known others who left because they were burdened with trials and couldn't take the perceived pressure of going to church, holding callings etc. That's where I was at one time in my life. And others still who were angry because a spouse left them and they saw the spouse still attending church and everyone accepting them while they felt left out in the cold.

As I said there are all kinds of reasons for leaving; but I reject the idea that most people leave over history or doctrine. The fact that those who are active on the internet may see a lot of those who claim this but it certainly isn't the majority of those who leave.

[Libs]

I think it would be almost impossible to know, for certain, what the main reason is for people leaving the church. But, I have seen informal surveys online that indicate ex-Mormons left mostly over the issue of polygamy and the Book of Abraham (after it was known that the papyri were different from Joseph's translation). Since that, more or less, matched my own reasons for leaving, I thought it might be fairly accurate....but who knows?

[44Foxtrot]

Why should we describe the differences of the colors blue and red to Helen Keller? Why should we explain the meaning of spiritual truth to someone who cannot see it?

Jeff,

You have not answered the question. You have simply responded by claiming, again without evidence, that those who do not believe as you do not understand. Problem is, we do understand. Most of us went through the same systematic conditioning and socialization that you have gone through. We used to believe as you do, especially those of us who were born in the Church.

At some point, however, we finally figured out that all of the tortured apologetic explanations, the changing doctrine, the inconsistencies between teachings and scripture and the inconsistencies among scriptures themselves, especially Mormon scripture, became of no concern or embarrassment once one realized that the Mormon faith (unfounded belief) was indistinguishable from other unfounded belief. And that since it is all unfounded belief, one set of made up religion is pretty much as good as another.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, children generally grow out of their belief in Santa Claus well before they are teenagers. The attributes ascribed to the Mormon God are just as imaginary as those ascribed to Santa Clause. Yet, for some reason, folks seem to be unable or unwilling to leave the latter behind and see life for what it really is. Christians seem unable to grasp that they hold belief in bronze age and medieval myths that have been revised and shaped in an attempt to keep up as society evolves, but keep falling further behind.

I do understand, Jeff. I understand that your imaginary friend has little to distinguish it from anyone else's imaginary friend or any of the thousands of other imaginary friends that have been created and worshipped by humankind, and which religionists have used for thousands of years as their excuse to form tribes, and do harm to others of whom they disapprove for some reason or another.

[Jeff K.]

No, I have answered the question. You have shown yourself incapable of even recognizing the bigotry you hold against religion. Self introspection is a strong spiritual aspect, and you lack such an ability. Your bigotry makes you incapable of the empathy necessary to see what others can see. Your post merely confirms it.

[sunstoned]

No, I have answered the question. You have shown yourself incapable of even recognizing the bigotry you hold against religion. Self introspection is a strong spiritual aspect, and you lack such an ability. Your bigotry makes you incapable of the empathy necessary to see what others can see. Your post merely confirms it.

Another personal attack by JeffK. How surprising.

[Palerider]

And what does my earlier statement have to do with your statement that I think people "screwed up." I never said that. I said they have left for reasons other than history or doctrine, especially back when these anti sites were not so available. I've never known one to say it was because of history or doctrine. I have family members who left because of lifestyle and only later in researching found anti-Mormon material and begin openly opposing the church. I've known others who left because they were burdened with trials and couldn't take the perceived pressure of going to church, holding callings etc. That's where I was at one time in my life. And others still who were angry because a spouse left them and they saw the spouse still attending church and everyone accepting them while they felt left out in the cold.

As I said there are all kinds of reasons for leaving; but I reject the idea that most people leave over history or doctrine. The fact that those who are active on the internet may see a lot of those who claim this but it certainly isn't the majority of those who leave.

But the OP never asked for a consensus on "majority" or "most". It only asked if it was a concern to members on this site that good and sincere members do leave on grounds of principle, which you (as shown earlier) have flatly rejected and only now, when being challenged, are admitting that it might be possible that some good people actually do leave for historical and doctrinal reasons.

The reason this is so crucial to someone who leaves the church on these grounds is that it is something that was built into the culture in the very beginning and has over time been taught in seminary and BYU religion classes and elsewhere, that when a member leaves the church, one can be fairly sure that some sort of sexual sin is masquerading as a "doctrinal difference". Joseph used this against his critics with great effect. Demonize the critic and change the conversation from one of doctrine to one of questioning the integrity of the critic. It is character assassination.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I believe modern apostles have not experienced that which they have not said they experienced.

On what basis do you believe modern apostles have experienced that which they have not said they experienced?

I find it odd that, when the heavens are open to us, we would need to speculate about whether or not the heavens are also open to the prophets.

[44Foxtrot]

No, I have answered the question. You have shown yourself incapable of even recognizing the bigotry you hold against religion. Self introspection is a strong spiritual aspect, and you lack such an ability. Your bigotry makes you incapable of the empathy necessary to see what others can see. Your post merely confirms it.

Jeff,

I have plenty of empathy.

I have empathy for the all of the young men, including those that I know personally, whose lives have been damaged or ended due to their treatment by the Church and its members simply because they happen to be among the approximately 2% to 3% of the male population in the US who are homosexual.

I have empathy for girls and young women who leave their homes each day with the belief that it would be better for them to return to their families as a virgin in a body bag than as breathing rape victim, and for the "Lamanite" children who were enticed away from their homes by a well meaning but misguided Church and its members in order to have their culture and heritage stripped from them.

I also have empathy for the parents of all of these children and young people, but not in the way that you might think.

According to your definition of a bigot, I admit to being a Genesis creation bigot and would also number myself among the global flood bigots, the flat earth bigots, the phrenology bigots, and the bloodletting medicine bigots.

One the other hand, you are clearly not a bigot, because the people and behaviors that you distain are the same ones that are distained by your God, and that makes everything okay. Is that about right?

[Hestia]

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[Hestia]

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