zerinus Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Perhaps you are the one who is deceived? It is my word against yours I guess
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 You did not answer my question though: Are you recommending us to sin?Geez, Zerinus.Haven't you gotten it yet that sinning is what the whole plan of salvation is about?All the Best!--Consiglieri
Sky Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Actually, we don't look to Joseph Smith the same way we look to Adam, Abraham, Noah, Peter, James, John, Paul, Nephi and "others" (John Taylor, Heber Grant, Howard Hunter). For example, we have two hymns about Joseph Smith. How many hymns do we have about any other prophets? As for Christianity in general, the general idea behind a personality cult is that devotion to an individual is inflated and distorted through idealized representations in media and art. In the case of Christians in general (including LDS), a sincere belief that Jesus was the Son of God and atoned for the sins of the world would probably mean that prayers and devotion were an appropriate response to his status in the eternal scheme of things. If it turned out that Jesus was an ordinary man (and Janice Kapp Perry was wrong), then yes, his followers would be guilty of wildly inflating his accomplishments and character, and Christianity might be considered a personality cult as well.I realize I'm in the minority among LDS when I acknowledge the possibility that we might be capable of overdoing it when it comes to our attitudes towards Joseph Smith (or other leaders/celebrities). Which is why I'm especially surprised when others have privately shared concerns, such as during 2005 when some of my wisecracks about the Church's attitude towards Joseph Smith prompted people to share that they too thought things had gone overboard. Also, the montage of President Monson during the April 2009 conference (where clips of President Monson were shown on screen during the singing of the closing hymn). Even my wife (who is ever reluctant to criticize anything the Church does) thinks that was tacky and inappropriate.What I meant was that Joseph Smith was called of God and had the same authority from God that those other Biblical and Book of Mormon prophets had. And Joseph Smith
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Which begs the question.... why do we keep trying to define as sinful what only God can judge? Who knows what we each understand, what we really know and have experienced? And just because one person has been able to reconcile questions to their satisfaction doesn't mean another person should be able to. IMO, we need to fret less and have more faith that The Plan actually works.These are important points you raise, mercyngrace.I have come to believe that the gospel does not stand independent in its own sphere like an artifact in a museum.Rather it must be lived in order for it to exist in any meaningful sense.And when it is lived, the individual brings something of himself (or herself) to the equation, with the result that the Gospel is something different for everyone who lives it.The Spirit manifests itself in different ways, and manifests different things, depending not only on God, but on who we are, as well.If this is so, and I recognize not everyone will agree with me, then we should be hesitant to judge the experience of another or where that experience leads him or her.All the Best!--Consiglieri
zerinus Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 That's just it Zerinus, you and I have had experiences that offer another option. Other people may not have been so blessed and may feel that the hypocrisy of living a lifestyle they do not believe in is suffocating.I agree that if they have lost their testimony to that degree in the Church, they might be doing themselves and the Church a favor by leaving it; but I don
Sky Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Geez, Zerinus.Haven't you gotten it yet that sinning is what the whole plan of salvation is about?All the Best!--ConsiglieriThe leaders of the Church (especially President Kimball) have taught that it is better to not commit a serious sin in the first place, rather than sinning and then repenting later on. Total obedience, submissiveness and meekness
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I agree that if they have lost their testimony to that degree in the Church, they might be doing themselves and the Church a favor by leaving it; but I don
zerinus Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Tru dat. Amended: I believe it will be sooner then that. When the pure in heart are gathered to build New Jerusalem the Lord will set things in order. The humble that are currently in error will be corrected, and we will all rejoice together.Except that neither of us may be alive on earth when that event takes place. But we will meet at the Judgment bar for sure some day!
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 The leaders of the Church (especially President Kimball) have taught that it is better to not commit a serious sin in the first place, rather than sinning and then repenting later on. Total obedience, submissiveness and meekness
zerinus Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 This is a classic example of why we should not judge the experience or actions of others.It is entirely possible that somebody who leaves the Church is better off for having done so.All the Best!--ConsiglieriNobody who joins the Church will be better off for leaving it.
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Geez, Zerinus.Haven't you gotten it yet that sinning is what the whole plan of salvation is about?All the Best!--ConsiglieriJust started a new thread on this subject, if anybody is interested . . .
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Nobody who joins the Church will be better off for leaving it.You've said that before.I think it tells me more about you than the people who leave.All the Best!--Consiglieri
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 That's not the message I get from the Garden of Eden saga.Hey, it's not like each of us is respectively Adam and Eve or anything.
mercyngrace Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 That's not the message I get from the Garden of Eden saga.Some may never come to know what they have until they lose it.Dang! I reached my max rep points for the day before I read this. I AM too nice!+1
zerinus Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 You've said that before.I think it tells me more about you than the people who leave.All the Best!--ConsiglieriI think this message says something about you.
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Dang! I reached my max rep points for the day before I read this. I AM too nice!+1I trust you awarded the rest to me.
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I think this message says something about you.Most of my messages say something about me.
mercyngrace Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I agree that if they have lost their testimony to that degree in the Church, they might be doing themselves and the Church a favor by leaving it; but I don
mercyngrace Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I trust you awarded the rest to me.We should pop over to your new thread and discuss the sinful woman who washed Christ's feet...
zerinus Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Zerinus,The only enthusiasm I have is for emulating Christ.Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. ~ JehovahHaving access to the fulness and knowing it are two different things. By this standard, everyone who visits the public library is going straight to hell. Thankfully,Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive.
consiglieri Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Try to get this into your head once, that I am not "judging" anybody; but I expressing my conviction that "leaving the Church" can not be a "good thing" for anybody.But you can't say why without entering into judgment.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Except that neither of us may be alive on earth when that event takes place. But we will meet at the Judgment bar for sure some day! And I am completely cool with that. As long as I am "trying to be like Jesus in all that I do and say..." I think I will do OK...3 Nephi 27:27"...Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am."I am not to be like Joseph Smith, or Thomas Monson, or zerinus- I am to emulate Jesus and Him alone.
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