Good people, leaving the church

[Palerider]

Thanks all for your insights, this thread has been tough to keep up with. My take on this thread is that most people are not seeing a trend in these types of membership resignations etc. The ones who are seeing it, like myself, are probably just paying more attention the the issue, though it seems that the opposite would likely apply to believing member; ie. they don't pay attention to these types of issues, so they probably are not realizing when they occur.

Does anyone have access to stats from the church on resignation rates etc?

I have a friend who has a practise (Dr. in counseling and psych) in a heavily Mormon populated state, who has seen a definite increase in cases where people have irreconcilable differences with the church due to historical issues. I don't know where she got her information but she told me (I do know she works fairly close with some local church stake leadership) that in the past ten years or so church headquarters has had to triple their staff that fields calls requesting removal of name from records. I'm sure just the growth factor would account for some of that but probably not all.

[ttribe]

I have spent some time on postmormon.org and agree that a lot of people on that site are ridiculous. I get that feeling a lot on this site too.

That's not the one I was referring to, but it'll do for illustrative purposes. In sum, there are the strident hard-liners on each side of this debate; that doesn't necessarily need to color the ongoing interaction, however.

[zerinus]

What if I felt it was an act of obedience to the Savior the leave the LDS Church, and that by not leaving I would be in rebellion against God?

That would mean that you have been badly deceived; or else you are already acting in disobedience to the Savior, and in rebellion against God.

[Sky]

I have spent some time on postmormon.org and agree that a lot of people on that site are ridiculous. I get that feeling a lot on this site too.

But you still choose to participate here. You don't have to. Something must make it worthwhile for you. At least on this site, opposing viewpoints are allowed.

[Sky]

What if I felt it was an act of obedience to the Savior the leave the LDS Church, and that by not leaving I would be in rebellion against God?

And what if I felt like you've got it all wrong and backwards?!

[maupayman]

I don't believe there are, ever has been, or ever will be a "good" reason for leaving the Church. Anybody who does so is a transgressor, pure and simple.

That's because you are an example of what I said in my post #244. Thanks for so clearly illustrating my point.

[zerinus]

Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. ~ Paul

Then I fail to see the purpose of your quotes in the context of our discussion.

The Book of Mormon offers striking illustrations of the psychological principle that impatience with the wickedness of others (even when it is real wickedness and not merely imagined) is a sure measure of one's own wickedness. ~ Hugh Nibley

Thank you, but I would rather you quoted directly from the Book of Mormon. I take the Book of Mormon to be inerrant scripture, whereas Hugh Nibley, honorable though he is as a faithful Latter-day Saint, does not carry the same authority with me.

[zerinus]

That's because you are an example of what I said in my post #244. Thanks for so clearly illustrating my point.

I take such comments from ex-Mormons as complements.

[Palerider]

That would mean that you have been badly deceived; or else you are already acting in disobedience to the Savior, and in rebellion against God.

Joseph Smith:

"I don't blame anyone for not believing me, if I had not experienced it myself, I would not have believed it myself."

[cinepro]

I suppose this is in distinction to all the religions founded by really boring people that were strongly disliked by their followers.

It's not a matter of a leader being not-boring or not disliked by their followers. I was pointing out that both the LDS and the Scientologists adopt an attitude bordering on a personality cult towards their founding leaders, which is unlike anything I've ever seen from any other religion of similar size founded in the last 200 years.

For example, the Charles Taze Russell helped start the Jehovah's Witnesses, but he's hardly mentioned anywhere on their website, and his picture is nowhere to be found. The Adventists show a little more devotion towards Ellen G. White, but she isn't a big presence on their website either. The Christian Scientists are a little more reverential towards Mary Baker Eddy.

But the attitude that Scientologists have towards L. Ron Hubbard and that LDS have towards Joseph Smith is hardly universal among religious movements and their founders.

[maupayman]

I take such comments from ex-Mormons as complements.

Is that you Ahab? Or do they just clone the arrogant fundamentalist mormons?

[mercyngrace]

Then I fail to see the purpose of your quotes in the context of our discussion.

Paul says "we" who have died to sin should not return to sin. But for those who have yet to be truly converted and feel to sing the song of redeeming love, the law - the violation of the law- is a means of bringing us to a consciousness of our own guilt (Romans 3:20). The fall wasn't just necessary for Adam and Eve. So rather than judging someone for leaving, show some faith in The Plan that allows the use of agency to make us aware of our own nothingness and eventually return us to the presence of God.

Thank you, but I would rather you quoted directly from the Book of Mormon. I take the Book of Mormon to be inerrant scripture, whereas Hugh Nibley, honorable though he is as a faithful Latter-day Saint, does not carry the same authority with me.

Certainly.

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; ~ Lehi

wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. ~ Lehi

[zerinus]

Joseph Smith:

"I don't blame anyone for not believing me, if I had not experienced it myself, I would not have believed it myself."

Sorry, but I couldn't see the relevance.

[zerinus]

Is that you Ahab? Or do they just clone the arrogant fundamentalist mormons?

LOL! I think that Ahab would be more amused than I am to know that you think I am him.

[Mortal Man]

I have a friend who has a practise (Dr. in counseling and psych) in a heavily Mormon populated state, who has seen a definite increase in cases where people have irreconcilable differences with the church due to historical issues. I don't know where she got her information but she told me (I do know she works fairly close with some local church stake leadership) that in the past ten years or so church headquarters has had to triple their staff that fields calls requesting removal of name from records.

Maybe she could prescribe some heavy medications to make their "issues" go away.

[Mortal Man]

Nope. In my very long time in the church I've known lots of people who've left, and not one of them left over history or doctrine. This is a fallacious argument because people were leaving the church long before we had the internet and all the anti sites so readily available. However, this makes a nice rationalization when people leave for other reasons. "Oh, look there are more than one version of the first vision. I was right in leaving the church. It must not be true. Now I can share my 'real' reason for leaving which is the history."

And as has been pointed out numerous times, many of us are familiar with the history, the real history which contains the big picture, and we have become stronger in our faith. Historical issues have little to do with the real reasons people go or stay. Furthermore anyone who claims to leave over a history they were ignorant of before just doesn't understand history or has lost the bigger picture and thrown out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. I find that very sad.

The funny thing is, I had this exact same attitude for most of my life.

[maupayman]

I have a friend who has a practise (Dr. in counseling and psych) in a heavily Mormon populated state, who has seen a definite increase in cases where people have irreconcilable differences with the church due to historical issues. I don't know where she got her information but she told me (I do know she works fairly close with some local church stake leadership) that in the past ten years or so church headquarters has had to triple their staff that fields calls requesting removal of name from records. I'm sure just the growth factor would account for some of that but probably not all.

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing Palerider. I'd be interested in talking with your friend.

[zerinus]

Paul says "we" who have died to sin should not return to sin. But for those who have yet to be truly converted and feel to sing the song of redeeming love, the law - the violation of the law- is a means of bringing us to a consciousness of our own guilt (Romans 3:20). The fall wasn't just necessary for Adam and Eve. So rather than judging someone for leaving, show some faith in The Plan that allows the use of agency to make us aware of our own nothingness and eventually return us to the presence of God.

I seem to get the impression that by these remarks you are trying to somehow justify committing sin or leaving the Church; and I simply disagree with you. I am not

[Sky]

It's not a matter of a leader being not-boring or not disliked by their followers. I was pointing out that both the LDS and the Scientologists adopt an attitude bordering on a personality cult towards their founding leaders, which is unlike anything I've ever seen from any other religion of similar size founded in the last 200 years.

For example, the Charles Taze Russell helped start the Jehovah's Witnesses, but he's hardly mentioned anywhere on their website, and his picture is nowhere to be found. The Adventists show a little more devotion towards Ellen G. White, but she isn't a big presence on their website either. The Christian Scientists are a little more reverential towards Mary Baker Eddy.

But the attitude that Scientologists have towards L. Ron Hubbard and that LDS have towards Joseph Smith is hardly universal among religious movements and their founders.

Would you say the same thing about Jesus Christ and Christianity as a whole (having a personality cult about their founding leader)?

I don't necessarily see it as being a bad thing. The difference between Joseph Smith and the others that you mentioned is that we look to him as a prophet in the exact same sense as Adam, Abraham, Noah, Peter, James, John, Paul, Nephi, and others. Joseph Smith received divine authority and direct communication with God, Christ, and angels

[Palerider]

I have a number of Mormon friends who are motorcycle enthusiasts, and even some who enjoy a friendly paintball shoot-em-up.

And I know a number of LDS artists who actually (gasp) paint nudes! Oh, the shame. I can hardly bear it.

Bernard

The real question here becomes...............are the LDS girls doffing their duds for the cause?

[maupayman]

I seem to get the impression that by these remarks you are trying to somehow justify committing sin or leaving the Church; and I simply disagree with you. I am not

[ttribe]

Because its a fraud.......just sayin

Not cool.

[elguanteloko]

Again, this may be an issue of timing. In my case, I didn't drink for almost 3 months after I left the church, but now I do enjoy it. I would say it played no role in my desire to leave the church, but has become something that I do socially. I agree that many people do leave for this reason though.

Similar here. My first drink (wine) was about 6 months after I decided to not attend any more. I still hate tobacco (never tried it but the smell is nasty), I've never gotten drunk and all I drink is about 50 mL of red wine a week mixed with orange juice. Looks like vomit but tastes good. No drugs or anything else of the type, really, and alcohol or 'sin' played no role at all in me not going back to church.

In my case, though, it wasn't the history of the church that got me out of it (I was quite good at "doublethink") but the feeling of dishonesty when praying or going to church when I just couldn't feel and believe anything nor saw any relevance at all of religion or spirituality in my life. Religion became a burden for which I saw absolutely no reason to keep bearing; a moral and intellectual burden.

On the OP, I don't see any trend although, IIRC, the numbers I've seen point to a slow down of Church growth since the 90's to this day. I just haven't been around too many members to see any trend, really.

[Palerider]

Maybe she could prescribe some heavy medications to make their "issues" go away.

If drugs would have truly helped I would have taken them myself.........

[mercyngrace]

I seem to get the impression that by these remarks you are trying to somehow justify committing sin or leaving the Church; and I simply disagree with you.

You can't disaree with what you don't understand. And from your stated interpretation, you clearly fail to understand.

I am not