Good people, leaving the church

[Deborah]

One can't leave a church they were never really a part of, Zerinus. And sometimes the quickest way to be found, is to be lost.

OOOh, I like that. So many of those who leave really never understood or had a firm foundation to begin with. Fortunately judgment is left to God who is the only one who truly knows someone's heart.

[Deborah]

The funny thing is, I had this exact same attitude for most of my life.

Which begs the question, why do you think you are right now but weren't then?

[Senator]

That is not rare at all. That is exactly what most LDS do when they commit sin. They go to their bishops and confess their sins, and submit whatever church discipline may be imposed on them, including excommunication. That is NOT the same as voluntarily opting to leave the Church (i.e. by requesting name removal). That is an act of defiance and rebellion against the Church. Confessing your sins is an act of submission to Church law and discipline. The two are worlds apart.

I understand the distinction you're trying to make. But I feel it's uncessary. Both methods of separation, either by edict or autonomous action, can prove to be a necessary or "good" action in the long run.

[mercyngrace]

OOOh, I like that. So many of those who leave really never understood or had a firm foundation to begin with. Fortunately judgment is left to God who is the only one who truly knows someone's heart.

Which begs the question.... why do we keep trying to define as sinful what only God can judge? Who knows what we each understand, what we really know and have experienced? And just because one person has been able to reconcile questions to their satisfaction doesn't mean another person should be able to. IMO, we need to fret less and have more faith that The Plan actually works.

[ttribe]

Which begs the question.... why do we keep trying to define as sinful what only God can judge? Who knows what we each understand, what we really know and have experienced? And just because one person has been able to reconcile questions to their satisfaction doesn't mean another person should be able to. IMO, we need to fret less and have more faith that The Plan actually works.

Amen! Preach on Sister!

Sorry...I served my mission in Tennessee and Kentucky.

[Palerider]

Sorry, but I couldn't see the relevance.

I can see why.........

[ELF1024]

Speaking as an excommunicated member, I haven't found any Internet argument strong enough to actually shake my faith in the Church. Yes, there are appearant distortions in the Church History. However it is just as likely that the distortion on the Anti-side is just as bad as the distortion on the Pro-side. Reality, and truth, in most cases, I have resolved is somewhere in the middle and is likely lost to current generations due to those distortions.

In most cases, I also have found that the items in question are not important enough to worry about.

I have found nothing that has shaken my faith about the Book of Mormon. In fact I have found many things that have actually strenghtened my testimony of the Book of Mormon.

I believe that the Book of Mormon is a true account of people here on the American Contient. I believe that Jesus Christ visited those people just as the Book of Mormon documents. I believe that Joseph Smith Jr. was a Prophet of God. I believe that Thomas Monson is the current Prophet on the Earth today.

I didn't leave the Church because of a doctrinal problem. I didn't leave the church because of a historical problem. I ended up leaving the Church because I was a weak willed person. I am attempting to fix that. Hopefully in the next month or two I will have my membership back, and I will be able to take my lovely wife to the temple in the next few years.

[zerinus]

Because its a fraud.......just sayin

It is actually true; and by the time you discover that for yourself it might be too late.

[zerinus]

You can't disaree with what you don't understand. And from your stated interpretation, you clearly fail to understand.

That is quite possible; but I am not sure if that is due to my failure to understand or your failure to explain.

You are judging their actions based on the flawed assessment that the know what they are doing. Knowledge is not just about being told what is right and wrong. Consider that Christ said those who crucified Him knew not what they did. Certainly they knew they were driving nail through His hands. The crowds knew they had demanded His death and the release of Barabbas. They were well aware of the Mosaic injunctions against false witness and murder. In what sense then, did they "know not"?

I think you have misunderstood that scripture. A careful reading of that passage shows that Jesus was referring to the Roman soldiers who were casting lot for His clothes. He was not referring to the Jewish priests and rulers who were responsible for murdering Him. He used other words to describe their actions.

One can't leave a church they were never really a part of, Zerinus. And sometimes the quickest way to be found, is to be lost.

I quite agree that there may come a time in the lives of some Church members when they would be doing themselves and the Church a favor by leaving the Church; but that does not justify them in putting themselves in that situation in the first place.

[zerinus]

I understand the distinction you're trying to make. But I feel it's uncessary. Both methods of separation, either by edict or autonomous action, can prove to be a necessary or "good" action in the long run.

See my previous reply to M&G

[zerinus]

Which begs the question.... why do we keep trying to define as sinful what only God can judge? Who knows what we each understand, what we really know and have experienced? And just because one person has been able to reconcile questions to their satisfaction doesn't mean another person should be able to. IMO, we need to fret less and have more faith that The Plan actually works.

Well, this is what The Plan says:

D&C 50

:

8 But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.

9 Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me.

LOL!

[Deborah]

Hopefully in the next month or two I will have my membership back, and I will be able to take my lovely wife to the temple in the next few years.

I hope it all works out; I'm sure it will. I've had friends who've gone through this and been able to go back to the temple.

[cinepro]

Would you say the same thing about Jesus Christ and Christianity as a whole (having a personality cult about their founding leader)?

I don't necessarily see it as being a bad thing. The difference between Joseph Smith and the others that you mentioned is that we look to him as a prophet in the exact same sense as Adam, Abraham, Noah, Peter, James, John, Paul, Nephi, and others. Joseph Smith received divine authority and direct communication with God, Christ, and angels

[zerinus]

Speaking as an excommunicated member, I haven't found any Internet argument strong enough to actually shake my faith in the Church. Yes, there are appearant distortions in the Church History. However it is just as likely that the distortion on the Anti-side is just as bad as the distortion on the Pro-side. Reality, and truth, in most cases, I have resolved is somewhere in the middle and is likely lost to current generations due to those distortions.

In most cases, I also have found that the items in question are not important enough to worry about.

I have found nothing that has shaken my faith about the Book of Mormon. In fact I have found many things that have actually strenghtened my testimony of the Book of Mormon.

I believe that the Book of Mormon is a true account of people here on the American Contient. I believe that Jesus Christ visited those people just as the Book of Mormon documents. I believe that Joseph Smith Jr. was a Prophet of God. I believe that Thomas Monson is the current Prophet on the Earth today.

I didn't leave the Church because of a doctrinal problem. I didn't leave the church because of a historical problem. I ended up leaving the Church because I was a weak willed person. I am attempting to fix that. Hopefully in the next month or two I will have my membership back, and I will be able to take my lovely wife to the temple in the next few years.

Thank you for your comments. You are already a member of God's true church as far as I am concerned. It is just that your name isn't enrolled for now.

[Deborah]

Which begs the question.... why do we keep trying to define as sinful what only God can judge?

I don't think we probably would if we didn't have some people bragging about how enlightened they've become since learning all the false teachings of the church. That is very irritating to me and rings of self-rationalization. Truthfully if people just kept silent about why they left I don't think anyone would care.

As I said before, you are too nice. I've become very cynical in my old age. But you are right we shouldn't judge why someone leaves, unless they want to make a big issue of it and try to convince others why they are right and we are wrong.

[ttribe]

I don't think we probably would if we didn't have some people bragging about how enlightened they've become since learning all the false teachings of the church. That is very irritating to me and rings of self-rationalization. Truthfully if people just kept silent about why they left I don't think anyone would care.

As I said before, you are too nice. I've become very cynical in my old age. But you are right we shouldn't judge why someone leaves, unless they want to make a big issue of it and try to convince others why they are right and we are wrong.

I'm not sure it's justified even then; but I get why you might feel that way.

[Deborah]

I'm not sure it's justified even then; but I get why you might feel that way.

Unfortunately they bring up the issue and it's not a matter of judging so much as defending against some of the attacks they make in stating their reasons for leaving, which involve criticizing the church.

[ttribe]

Unfortunately they bring up the issue and it's not a matter of judging so much as defending against some of the attacks they make in stating their reasons for leaving, which involve criticizing the church.

I know. My observation, however, is that "our side" can get a little carried away as well.

[mercyngrace]

Well, this is what The Plan says:

D&C 50

:

8 But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world.

9 Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me.

LOL!

It also says this:

Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Would you prefer hypocrites in the church performing dead works or publicans acknowledging in their exodus that they are lost?

[Deborah]

I know. My observation, however, is that "our side" can get a little carried away as well.

I agree. I still wonder why it's such a big deal to bring it up in the first place, like starting sites where people can commiserate with each other about all their issues with the church. I just think if people dwell on the negative it tends to feed itself and grow.

[zerinus]

It also says this:

Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Would you prefer hypocrites in the church performing dead works or publicans acknowledging in their exodus that they are lost?

I don't want to see either. I don't know why there has to be such a choice.

[Palerider]

I don't think we probably would if we didn't have some people bragging about how enlightened they've become since learning all the false teachings of the church. That is very irritating to me and rings of self-rationalization. Truthfully if people just kept silent about why they left I don't think anyone would care.

As I said before, you are too nice. I've become very cynical in my old age. But you are right we shouldn't judge why someone leaves, unless they want to make a big issue of it and try to convince others why they are right and we are wrong.

Just as someone who feels they have been "flimflamed" wants to warn others about the "flimflam" man, so members of the church who leave because of historical and doctrinal issues and discrepencies want to have a voice regarding those things.

The church would just love to have us just shut-up and slink away, as if we were ashamed that we were taken in. That way they can keep right on modifing things without anyone noticing that where the priesthood/RS study guide quotes how Brigham treated his "wives", it now says how he treated his "wife".

What would happen if all of the members wanting temple recommends treated their own histories this way.......? Redacting all of the little unpleasantries.....

Do you think the leadership would mind....?

[mercyngrace]

As I said before, you are too nice. I've become very cynical in my old age. But you are right we shouldn't judge why someone leaves, unless they want to make a big issue of it and try to convince others why they are right and we are wrong.

It's easy to be nice on a message board, Deborah But for me, this isn't about being nice. Everything I post on this board, especially when it comes to conversation like this one about how we respond to each other boils down to the love I have felt from The Father through Christ in my own life. He was shameless in His condescension so that I could be lifted up. He bore injustices in my name so that I could be changed by experiencing His compassion, mercy, and grace. And it has changed me. I know the process works. We draw each other toward Him through charity and a big part of that is giving each other the benefit of the doubt.

[mercyngrace]

I don't want to see either. I don't know why there has to be such a choice.

That's just it Zerinus, you and I have had experiences that offer another option. Other people may not have been so blessed and may feel that the hypocrisy of living a lifestyle they do not believe in is suffocating.

If that is the case, I feel God will show them the same tender mercies He shows me because it isn't only our works that define us, but our thoughts, our desires, the intents of our hearts, and the context in which all those things play out. This is why Elder Whitney said that "only the fulness of knowledge brings the fulness of accountability".

[BookofMormonLuvr]

That would mean that you have been badly deceived; or else you are already acting in disobedience to the Savior, and in rebellion against God.

Perhaps you are the one who is deceived?