My Wife's Encounter with some Lovely Ex-Mormons

[Pahoran]

Thanks, mudcat and hoops for answering. I was curious because you had both said Pahoran has treated you decently, overall. I've been on boards with Pahoran for years, and I noticed a long time ago he does treat "never-been-LDS" posters with general decency. He seems to reserve his special vitriol for exmormons. I predict if consig's wife ever becomes an exmormon, he will revert to his former analysis of her problem.

What "former analysis?" The one based upon the OP alone? Your "prediction" is clearly a projection of your own animus.

Let's not turn every thread into another skirmish of our running battle, Tricks. This thread isn't about you and me. Don't hijack it.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hoops22]

Thanks, mudcat and hoops for answering. I was curious because you had both said Pahoran has treated you decently, overall.

I don't recall writing that.

[emeliza]

Iâ??m not sure there is a way to reconcile this issue. The real issue for me wasnâ??t that life wasnâ??t easy, that someone treated me badly â?? I expected life to have serious trials. That was part of the point. The real issue for me was that God had told me to marry him. Of course, I did end up with my three wonderful children, but having an emotionally abusive and mentally ill father hasnâ??t made their lives easy, either. They are still dealing with some of those issues. Why didnâ??t God want me to be with a man who actually loved me, and would have been a good father to my children? Itâ??s one thing to consider that God wants you to be abused for some higher purpose, but I donâ??t think any mother can bring herself to believe God wants her children to be abused for some higher purpose. It wasnâ??t just â??allowingâ? it to happen â?? God made it happen by telling me to marry him.

I don't think God wants us to be in abusive marriages. I think sometimes we see things that aren't there and sometimes things just happen in life. I don't think they are planned by God. I do believe many things in life we are to endure and live thru. Abuse is not one of them, at least not long term ongoing abuse. Obviously an angry child tell us they hate us or having a temper tantrum is something we learn to forgive, but ongoing abuse is different, especially from an adult.

I suppose for me I don't usually put God into those situations. I think sometimes we see spiritual signs where they aren't and sometimes we miss spiritual signs and sometimes there are no signs. God doesn't micromanage. I think although He is always present in some way or another, He often times let us live our lifes and make our own decisions. I believe He answers prayers, but I don't think He answers all of them or at least not right away. Sometimes His answer is just to comfort us, actually that might be what He does most often. He doesn't shelter us though. He doesn't give us all the answers or make life easier for us per say. He tells us how to come back to Him, but I don't think He munipulates situations as often as people say He does. This is our test.

Anyway I am sorry for what you went thru Beastie just as I am forever one. I am sorry you lost your faith or belief in God, but it appears that made you stronger and able to endure better and take care of your children better. Maybe that is just something you had to do. For someone else it might be exactly opposite.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't recall writing that.

Looks like no one ever gets anything you say right? You might want to try a little harder in giving poeple the correct understanding of what you are writing.

[Senator]

The real issue for me was that God had told me to marry him.

Are you making this statement now, as an atheist; or are you just recreating your past mindset for us? I'm a little confused. Forgive me.

[beastie]

Are you making this statement now, as an atheist; or are you just recreating your past mindset for us? I'm a little confused. Forgive me.

Sorry for the confusion. Iâ??m recreating my past mindset for you. I was an active LDS believer who had been taught to pray to HF about marrying someone, and He would let me know if it was the right thing to do.

I don't think God wants us to be in abusive marriages. I think sometimes we see things that aren't there and sometimes things just happen in life. I don't think they are planned by God. I do believe many things in life we are to endure and live thru. Abuse is not one of them, at least not long term ongoing abuse. Obviously an angry child tell us they hate us or having a temper tantrum is something we learn to forgive, but ongoing abuse is different, especially from an adult.

I suppose for me I don't usually put God into those situations. I think sometimes we see spiritual signs where they aren't and sometimes we miss spiritual signs and sometimes there are no signs. God doesn't micromanage. I think although He is always present in some way or another, He often times let us live our lifes and make our own decisions. I believe He answers prayers, but I don't think He answers all of them or at least not right away. Sometimes His answer is just to comfort us, actually that might be what He does most often. He doesn't shelter us though. He doesn't give us all the answers or make life easier for us per say. He tells us how to come back to Him, but I don't think He munipulates situations as often as people say He does. This is our test.

Anyway I am sorry for what you went thru Beastie just as I am forever one. I am sorry you lost your faith or belief in God, but it appears that made you stronger and able to endure better and take care of your children better. Maybe that is just something you had to do. For someone else it might be exactly opposite.

Thank you for your kind words, and being willing to see me as a human being first, and an exmormon second. I really do appreciate that, even though Iâ??m going to quibble with something in your reply.

Presuming there is a God, what you propose makes sense, and is actually what I believed when I was LDS as well. But I canâ??t reconcile that with what occurred to me, because God did answer my prayer about marrying my ex-husband. He told me yes. Yet God would have known that my ex-husband had undiagnosed bipolar disorder, as well as tendencies toward abuse. Heck, while I didnâ??t find it out till much later, practically everyone in his ward knew it (well, not the part about the bipolar â?? that wasnâ??t as well known then as it is now). Iâ??m sure thatâ??s part of the reason he looked to another city for possible partners. Even though we had a very brief courtship, in retrospect there were warning signs. But, as I said earlier, I just thought part of why God had put us together was for me to help â??healâ? him.

Choosing the future father of my children so poorly is something I doubt I will ever really forgive myself for. Theyâ??re wonderful young adults now, but they still have to deal with issues due to his effect on their lives. I donâ??t believe in God anymore, so forgiving â??Himâ? isnâ??t an issue â?? but if I were still a believer, it certainly would be.

I wish I had an answer for consigâ??s wife, but maybe knowing she isnâ??t the only person to have dealt with this issue may help in some small way.

[ERMD]

Sorry for the confusion. Iâ??m recreating my past mindset for you. I was an active LDS believer who had been taught to pray to HF about marrying someone, and He would let me know if it was the right thing to do.

Thank you for your kind words, and being willing to see me as a human being first, and an exmormon second. I really do appreciate that, even though Iâ??m going to quibble with something in your reply.

Presuming there is a God, what you propose makes sense, and is actually what I believed when I was LDS as well. But I canâ??t reconcile that with what occurred to me, because God did answer my prayer about marrying my ex-husband. He told me yes. Yet God would have known that my ex-husband had undiagnosed bipolar disorder, as well as tendencies toward abuse. Heck, while I didnâ??t find it out till much later, practically everyone in his ward knew it (well, not the part about the bipolar â?? that wasnâ??t as well known then as it is now). Iâ??m sure thatâ??s part of the reason he looked to another city for possible partners. Even though we had a very brief courtship, in retrospect there were warning signs. But, as I said earlier, I just thought part of why God had put us together was for me to help â??healâ? him.

Choosing the future father of my children so poorly is something I doubt I will ever really forgive myself for. Theyâ??re wonderful young adults now, but they still have to deal with issues due to his effect on their lives. I donâ??t believe in God anymore, so forgiving â??Himâ? isnâ??t an issue â?? but if I were still a believer, it certainly would be.

I wish I had an answer for consigâ??s wife, but maybe knowing she isnâ??t the only person to have dealt with this issue may help in some small way.

The question then becomes, what if your prayer truly was answered, and it was the right thing for you to do. Assume for a moment that God is who LDS believe he is. The pioneers were told to cross the plains. They did so. It didn't work out so well for some of them, yet God was still seen as God and the Church leadership was still sustained. Understanding why is sometimes impossible.

I say this not to discount your trial. Facing my wife's mortality, we have dealt with these issues as well.

[emeliza]

Presuming there is a God, what you propose makes sense, and is actually what I believed when I was LDS as well. But I canâ??t reconcile that with what occurred to me, because God did answer my prayer about marrying my ex-husband. He told me yes. Yet God would have known that my ex-husband had undiagnosed bipolar disorder, as well as tendencies toward abuse. Heck, while I didnâ??t find it out till much later, practically everyone in his ward knew it (well, not the part about the bipolar â?? that wasnâ??t as well known then as it is now). Iâ??m sure thatâ??s part of the reason he looked to another city for possible partners. Even though we had a very brief courtship, in retrospect there were warning signs. But, as I said earlier, I just thought part of why God had put us together was for me to help â??healâ? him.

Choosing the future father of my children so poorly is something I doubt I will ever really forgive myself for. Theyâ??re wonderful young adults now, but they still have to deal with issues due to his effect on their lives. I donâ??t believe in God anymore, so forgiving â??Himâ? isnâ??t an issue â?? but if I were still a believer, it certainly would be.

Yeah, I wasn't so good at choosing the fathers of my children either, but again I never felt like God lead me there.

I don't have the answers you are wanting by any means. I don't want to be cliche either. It could be that you were just suppose to have these children and honestly they wouldn't be the children you had, if you had them with someone else. It could be that God wanted you to learn to stand up for yourself and your children and you had to learn the horribly hard way. It could be that God didn't really answer your prayers as you thought he did. I mean honestly it seems you have now been able to decide that the 'answer' to your prayers wasn't from God since you no longer believe in God (so therefore He couldn't answer you if he existed). Maybe you just so much wanted to be married and loved that you created the answer yourself. At the time you took it as your faith and God's will, but maybe it never was. Most of what we do as believers we do with faith. Sometimes people forget that we still have consequences that might be bad, even when the decision we made based on our faith was good.

And again, I don't want to sound cliche, but you did benefit in many ways from the horribly crappy marriage. You have three great kids, who might have some issues, but they sound well adjusted. You have a new conviction in life not to allow anyone else to walk all over you and you have taught your kids this. You since then met your new 'sweetie' (not sure if that is husband or not) and you probably wouldn't have ever met him if you hadn't walked the life you have. Honestly I have no idea of the 'answers' for you. I do believe though that life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it. That is true whether you believe in God or not. Those who deal well with the reaction, are happier and do better and learn to count the blessings in life, even when they came from crap. It sounds like you took a terrible time in your life and learned not only to live in it, but live after it and thrive. That has to be worth something?

[Paloma]

...

I don't have the answers you are wanting by any means. I don't want to be cliche either. ...

It sounds like you took a terrible time in your life and learned not only to live in it, but live after it and thrive. That has to be worth something?

Emeliza, it is so refreshing to see this kind of respect and compassion expressed toward Beastie who is both an exMormon and atheist.

I love it when posts illustrate that we're all human beings, together in our struggles. And when there's the idea that we can reach across to each other despite our different ideologies and religious or philosophical convictions, and touch each other with reflective and compassionate thoughts that aren't necessarily coloured by our different perspectives.

There's a lot of just plain humanity and common struggle and common wisdom and mutual encouragement that can be shared, as both of you have shown here, Emeliza and Beastie.

Although I don't really know if or how this would affect Consiglieri and his wife's situation described in this thread, I can't help but think that respect, honest reflection and compassionate encouragement are always of tremendous value in every context.

[consiglieri]

My heart aches for your wife. She is so lucky to have you, just as I am lucky to have my loving sweetie as well. But even your love canâ??t erase this pain, particularly since her child was hurt. Counseling, of course, can help deal with the after-effects of abuse, but I donâ??t think counseling can resolve the underlying question of why God did this to her and her child.

I am taken aback with your willingness to "let it all hang out" like that, Beastie. I feel for the difficulties you have experienced, and perhaps, as Paloma has suggested, this may be a positive aspect to suffering--the ability to empathize with others, and possibly a bridge to others of different beliefs and origins.

The common sufferings of humanity may bring us together and bind us in a way that a world of no suffering could not. I don't know, but it has been making me think this Easter Saturday of Jesus who I believe suffered so much for us. All of us suffer from time to time as a result of wrong choices we make, but maybe it is the sufferings we undergo that we don't "deserve" that makes us more like Jesus and binds us more to him. Maybe it's not just a matter of following Jesus as an example of obedience that makes us more like him, but also following Jesus as an example of innocent suffering.

As I say, this is a new thought to me, and I don't know exactly where it might lead, but could the idea of a suffering God be part of the attraction of Christianity? Some might see it as making God weaker than a God who would never allow himself to suffer, or a God who simply could not suffer; but if our sufferings can bind us together as people, maybe our sufferings bring us more into the realm of a God who himself suffered.

Your willingness to be open about your sufferings leads me to be more open about mine (especially since I have focused pretty much on just my wife). I won't bore you with too many details, but here is the thumbnail sketch:

I joined the Church in June of 1978, fresh out of high school. I went on a mission to Japan from November of 1979 to November of 1981. After returning, I was involved in missionary work on a stake level and, as part of that, taught and baptized a young lady whom I ended up marrying in the temple in 1985.

We had two children together and everything seemed to be working out like the fulfillment of a Mormon dream until the spring of 1992, when we took into our home an 18-year old boy who had been ostracized from his family for joining the LDS Church, and who needed a place to stay while preparing for his mission. Thinking this would be what Jesus would do, we made a room for him upstairs and allowed him to stay with us.

As it turned out, while I was away during the day at work, my wife and this young man got into the habit of carrying on at home. He left on his mission in November of 1992, and I did not find out about what had been going on until my wife confessed it to me in December of 1992. Although painful, I had the remarkable experience of being given the capacity to forgive her and move on with our life together.

What I didn't know at the time was that my wife was confessing this to me in order to cover up a new affair she was having with a man in the ward who was also married in the temple and who had four kids of his own.

This went on for some time and, like the old adage, I was the last to know. Looking back, I can see how I refused to see what was right in front of my eyes because I didn't want to see it. I thought the problem was over when he moved to Utah with his family in the summer of 1993, but he divorced his wife in early 1994, and from there it wasn't long until my wife and I split up and got divorced. She married this fellow within a month of our divorce becoming final in early 1995, moved to Utah and took our two children with her.

I was devastated.

It is a strange thing that each of these calamities appear to have befallen me as a direct result of my trying to do the right thing. I couldn't understand how this could be. I had been taught that blessings come from doing the right thing, but in my case, the direct opposite seemed to be the result.

I was very bitter toward God, although I continued attending Church.

I remember a particular Priesthood meeting during this time when the instructor was teaching about getting answers to prayer and, finding the class typically unresponsive, called on me to give an example of my prayers being answered.

I remember answering curtly, "God and I aren't on speaking terms right now."

Although I still don't understand why my attempts to do good have been visited with such results, I continue in the Church out of faith, though I am leery of trying to do the "right thing."

"Choose The Right" just doesn't have the same "ring" to me as it once did. (No pun intended.)

Strangely, as I look at my life, it would make more sense for me to leave the Church than to stay. But I stay.

The testimonies I received prior to my first marriage keep me going, and I feel to say with Nephi that I do not know the meaning of all things, but I do know (believe) that God loves his children, although that "love" may take a strange form from time to time.

I believe that I will one day understand the whys and the wherefores to all of this, but I do not believe that day will be in my lifetime.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[why me]

Although I still don't understand why my attempts to do good have been visited with such results, I continue in the Church out of faith, though I am leery of trying to do the "right thing."

"Choose The Right" just doesn't have the same "ring" to me as it once did. (No pun intended.)

Strangely, as I look at my life, it would make more sense for me to leave the Church than to stay. But I stay.

The testimonies I received prior to my first marriage keep me going, and I feel to say with Nephi that I do not know the meaning of all things, but I do know (believe) that God loves his children, although that "love" may take a strange form from time to time.

I believe that I will one day understand the whys and the wherefores to all of this, but I do not believe that day will be in my lifetime.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think that you can find you own answer from your post above. By sharing your experiences with others you are helping others find their way. Why do bad things happen to good people has been a question that many people have asked. And what is the answer? I have no idea. But one thing that I do know is that we are on this earth and bad things will happen. But it is what with do with these bad things that become important.

Blaming god would be a cop out. The fact is: you are a more wise and intelligient person at this moment for the experiences that you have had. And in the end, you are attempting to help people who have also experienced something unpleasant. And that is what it is all about.

[Hoops22]

I'll remember you, Consiglieri, this evening, if that's okay.

[Paloma]

Thank you, Consiglieri.

Your transparency is a gift.

May God wrap you and your wife in His love, comfort, strength and wisdom.

[beastie]

consig -

I am also touched by your willingness to share your own past pain. It can be hard to do on a board like this, where so often an adversarial tone predominates - but, as Paloma said, aside from our differences in religious perspective, we all still share our common humanity, and there is no doubt suffering plays a part in that. I'm going to return later with another post, for you and others who have replied, but I want to think about the comments some more first. Thank you for accepting my post in the spirit it was intended.

[LDSMusic483]

A few thoughts have come to my mind as I read Consigs most recent post and some of those of Beastie. An initial question for Beastie is just to help my understanding, and I don't mean it to be flippant at all. In fact, Beastie, you may have already answered this, but the thread is so long and I didn't want to try to find it. You say you are an atheist, and believe that God does not exist. If this is the case, then who answered your prayer to marry your first husband? If it was in fact God, did He then cease to exist? Perhaps you can help me on this, but it just seems odd to me for you to,still blaim a God you don't believe exists for something that happened to you. Anyway, that was a question that came to my mind, and it is independent of your sufferings to which I indeed feel sympathy for your situation. Truly you are a strong daughter of God to be able to weather such trials in your life.

A few of the things that come to mind are such as these...

Assuming that God does exist, the conundrum for you is how he could allow something like this to happen. We may ask similar questions of how He could allow Hitler to gain power, why He allows children to go missing, etc. The heart of your problem though comes from you feeling He answered your prayer in the affirmative that you should marry him (your ex). I don't know specifically why God seems to sometimes encourage us into situations that will cause us more pain. It happened to the early Saints as well. I'm sure you heard this scripture before, but I still like it.

Alma 14:8-10

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained;

This situation is compounded by the fact that Alma had originally been rejected in this city, left for another city, and was stopped by an angel who said:

Alma 8:16

16 And behold, I am sent to command thee that thou return to the city of Ammonihah, and preach again unto the people of the city; yea, preach unto them. Yea, say unto them, except they repent the Lord God will destroy them.

So one can question, why would God send Alma back when his preaching would inevitably cause the burning of not just the word of God, but women and children who believed in the words. Seeing this, Amulek sought to use the power of God to relieve them from their pains:

Alma 14:10-11

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

I can not say if this is the reason God would not only allow, but encourage you to marry your ex-husband, but it is food for thought. Jesus chose Judas Iscariot as one of the Twelve Apostles, knowing him and what he would inevitably do. I think that God knowing what individuals may do does not mean He also holds the responsibility of preventing it. Otherwise those who do not truly deserve to return to live with Him would not be held accountable for those choices (not having been able to make them). The most important thing to remember is that of the atonement. Though we may not know how, Christ has felt and understands every type of pain that we could possibly go through, to such an amount that He was constrained to ask why God had forsaken Him. We have not suffered as He (thankfully) and it is through Him that we can be healed. It has been said that for us to receive the blessings of Abraham, we must be tried even as he has been. The same can be said of all those who have suffered, including Christ if we hope to be joint heirs with Him. Perhaps this trial is something that will shake us to our very foundation and cause us to almost give up hope (Christ sought for a different way then drinking from the bitter cup of the atonement). The difference will be whether we can whether the storm for the peace that follows and not give up our faith. God probably knew not only how difficult the actions of your ex-husband would be on you to accept (considering your prayer), but also that it would present perhaps the greatest trial of your life. That is between Him and you though.

To Consiglieri, I admire your ability to continue to serve in the church and retain your faith despite the seemingly endless evidence of the rewards for doing good. It speaks much to your character. Indeed, it seems as though all of us at somepoint will be faced with challenges that metaphorically represent Jobs wife telling us to "curse God and die." Hold onto the faith and both of you (along with Consigs wife) remember:

Doctrine & Covenants 64:33

33 Wherefore, be not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work. And out of small things proceedeth that which is great.

and

Doctrine & Covenants 112:13

13 And after their temptations, and much tribulation, behold, I, the Lord, will feel after them, and if they harden not their hearts, and stiffen not their necks against me, they shall be converted, and I will heal them.

In regards to the first, we must remember that this foundation which is small and shall proceed to that which is great will in eternities eyes remain small in this life. The greatness is reserved for those unwearying individuals. The second, the Lord will feel after us, but I find it important to recognize that it is after much tribulation and not necesarily during. If we harder our hearts during our temptations and tribulations, we will not recognize the Lor when he does feel after us, thus losing the opportunity to be healed.

[alter idem]

I've been thinking a lot about this thread--especially since some have opened up and shared their own struggles. Basically we are discussing the age old question of why bad things happen to good people--but with the added concern of why bad things happen to us when we think we should be protected from them because we are "living right".

Paloma's comment back a few pages that God did not "spare his own son" really struck me as a key to understanding this kind of suffering. I also thought of how we go to church and we only see the "church faces" others wear. We really don't know what kind of trials others are facing. I think that is why it's so important that we are careful in our hasty judgments. I think about how this thread started out and the conclusions that we reached before we were able to discard them, once we got more information. I think of Beastie and her situation-- I knew some of her background-I knew she was a convert and had served a mission and had lost her faith, but not much more. Thank you for sharing your personal struggles, Beastie. Also, Consig, you've had a lot of heartache--and others, Silvergirl, that have shared your trials and the ideas offered by many who've wanted to help. I've learned from reading your insights and how you've dealt with these things etc. My heart aches--but is softened as I contemplate what this life is all about and what the Savior and the scriptures try to teach us about suffering.

The only thing I have to offer is that I think that when something bad happens, it can damage the trust we have in our Heavenly Father. If the trust in him breaks down, so does our faith in him--even to the point of rejecting his very existence. So, some turn from God and others turn to him to deal with the agonies of life. For me, I always believed that Heavenly Father loved me and the trials I faced were something necessary for my growth. I think part of that process may at times involve "not being on speaking terms with God"--but hopefully not for long. Do you think sometimes we try to "punish" him by ignoring him...not turning to him in our trials, but rejecting him? I think so.

And I think one thing we can never forget is that God granted us our agency and he will not violate that sacred gift. When we tie ourselves to another person, as in marriage or family, we are vulnerable to harm and great suffering IF they choose to do evil or refuse to control their impulses or will not rise above their weaknesses. Imagine how many wonderful loving families could have been enjoyed had one spouse not made the selfish, cruel, depraved choices they made--they had been given the blessing of creating a loving family together, yet they rejected it--for whatever reason.

[Calm]

And I think one thing we can never forget is that God granted us our agency and he will not violate that sacred gift. When we tie ourselves to another person, as in marriage or family, we are vulnerable to harm and great suffering IF they choose to do evil or refuse to control their impulses or will not rise above their weaknesses. Imagine how many wonderful loving families could have been enjoyed had one spouse not made the selfish, cruel, depraved choices they made--they had been given the blessing of creating a loving family together, yet they rejected it--for whatever reason.

I think the fact that those close to us can choose hurt us so much has the flip side that we often forget...how much more it means when they choose to love us, support us, forgive our faults, suffer with us. We often think of a loving family as a default position, but that isn't the reality. We need to understand the value of the choice to love as much as we understand harm that the choice to harm others can cause.

[beastie]

Again, I want to express my appreciation for those of you who were willing to listen to my experience, and understand why I shared it. It is a bit frightening to expose yourself, particularly on a board with a sometimes adversarial tone, but my situation was similar enough to consigâ??s wife that I felt I should share it despite that risk.

As I respond to your thoughts, I fear that it may sound as if Iâ??m trying to â??convertâ? you all to atheism. I am not, but it is impossible for me to discuss how I think about this experience without referring to my atheism, just like you all have referred to your theism. Rather than address specific posts, Iâ??m going to respond in a way that I hope will address most of the point brought up therein.

Since I no longer believe in God, I do think that answer to my prayer about marrying my ex-husband was of my own creation â?? not a conscious creation, by any means. I have the same view of the answer I got to praying â??is the BoM the word of Godâ?, and other numinous events I experienced. I truly do not mean to discount the incredible power of these experiences by saying I think it was of my own creation. The brain creates reality for us as it is â?? and that reality feels completely â??externalâ? and we are convinced our perception of that reality is coherent with the actual, objective, external reality. Iâ??m sure most of the time it is, but there are times when it isnâ??t, when our brains have, for lack of a better phrase, â??trickedâ? us. Yet the â??trickâ? feels just as real as the â??realâ? reality. One way that I think about this is through how vision works. The physical â??visual systemâ? that our bodies possess has blind spots built into it, and yet we are usually completely unaware of these blind spots because our brain helpfully fills in the missing information.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m120...39/ai_10724096/

What we â??seeâ? through the intervention of our brain is just as real to us as what we â??seeâ? through our actual visual system. It is still â??realâ?. It took me a long time to get to the place where I was able to really accept that all human beings are somewhat limited in our ability to differentiate between external reality and our perception of external reality. It took even longer to be able to accept that meant that some of my own experiences and perceptions may not have been actual reflections of some external reality at all â?? including my numinous events â?? no matter how strong they may have been. So no, Iâ??m not angry at God, nor do I blame God for all of this â?? I donâ??t believe a God really created these experiences to begin with. So when I refer to having the same issue that consigâ??s wife has, Iâ??m referring to when I was still a believer. As long as I was still a theist, I believed God had communicated with me in these instances.

Thatâ??s part of the reason I stayed with him so long. My own sister, who was and still is LDS, long tried to convince me that God could not possibly want me to remain married to an emotionally abusive and unstable person. But I knew that God had told me to marry him, so I felt like divorcing him would be the equivalent of rejecting Godâ??s will for my life. I reconciled this in various ways. For a very long time, I believed that God knew my ex-husband had tremendous potential for good, and wanted him to realize that potential, and â??gaveâ? me to him to help him heal, help him live up to his potential. My ex-husband was, and still is, a gifted and charismatic individual, aside from his abuse/control/emotional instability issues. It was Godâ??s will that we be married, and that my ex-husband actually let me help him. Yes, it seems very na

[Paloma]

As I respond to your thoughts, I fear that it may sound as if Iâ??m trying to â??convertâ? you all to atheism. I am not, but it is impossible for me to discuss how I think about this experience without referring to my atheism, just like you all have referred to your theism. Rather than address specific posts, Iâ??m going to respond in a way that I hope will address most of the point brought up therein.

...

Again, I want to thank those posters who were willing to lay aside our differences to appreciate my attempt to help consig and his wife in some way. I only wish I had something better to offer, other than to say I understand, because Iâ??ve been there.

Beastie, I am really thankful for your input.

Personally, I see your sharing of your experiences and reflections here as tremendously valuable - although even as I say that, there's a little voice in my head saying to myself: "Who do you think you are? You're an outsider too." But I'm a huge lover of people and participant in life, so I feel as if I can validly comment!

I appreciated your explanation of how you view your experiences from an atheistic viewpoint.

I'm truly fascinated by different perspectives and feel we can learn a lot from each other. And I mean that in a deep way, rather than just giving lip service to a collegial and dialogical approach to human relationships.

Coming back to our shared humanity, I think we have great untapped potential to appreciate our differences and learn from each other.

Although I'm not an atheist, I feel I can understand and respect that worldview to a quite large extent, given that I'm not 'in it" myself. I've told my atheist friend that I tremendously admire his courage, to walk bravely and boldly forward without faith in God. And I understand that he's walking with integrity according to how he sees the world. Who am I to say differently? (Though I pray for him, because that's my worldview.)

I didn't see your post as being 'preachy' at all, and I think it can only be helpful to understand as much about where we're each coming from as possible.

Thank you. I realize the risk you took, and hope you'll be affirmed for the wonderful heart you're bringing to this thread.

[LDS1973]

Okay, I'm going to open up here with everybody.

The older couple shared that when they were Mormons, they were miserable; they didn't like going to Church, and they felt so burdened because even though they were asked to do so much on behalf of the Mormon Church, they never felt good enough. Now they feel free and happy being away from the Mormon Church.

--Consiglieri

This is also why I left. I agree that you need challanges in life to grow, but as my wife always said, I want to beel uplifted by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not burdened and underachieving. Those who think that you must feel burdened and that you are required to always be seeking a higher plane will never find the rest that Jesus promised. I tried to 'endure to the end' to find that rest after this life, but I could not. And I don't think that is what Jesus meant.

As an Athiest I have no belief in God, but I have attended enough different churches to know that I would MUCH rather be at one that motivates me through joy than through guilt as the LDS Church does.

[alter idem]

Beastie: I only wish I had something better to offer, other than to say I understand, because Iâ??ve been there.

I think your offering was very valuable--For me, your sharing your feelings on this helps me understand some of my own loved ones who have lost their faith--especially in my husband's family where they don't pry or bring up painful topics like the inactivity or unbelief of family members. To keep peaceful relations in some families, they avoid talk about religion or discuss it in superficial terms and they certainly don't delve into why a loved one is no longer a believer. So your comments help me better understand what these family members might be dealing with--hopefully your insights can help me understand and empathize with them more--and I think it will help others on the board like myself. Thanks again.

[Garden Girl]

This is also why I left. I agree that you need challanges in life to grow, but as my wife always said, I want to beel uplifted by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not burdened and underachieving. Those who think that you must feel burdened and that you are required to always be seeking a higher plane will never find the rest that Jesus promised. I tried to 'endure to the end' to find that rest after this life, but I could not. And I don't think that is what Jesus meant.

As an Athiest I have no belief in God, but I have attended enough different churches to know that I would MUCH rather be at one that motivates me through joy than through guilt as the LDS Church does.

Hello LDS1973...

I'm trying to understand you and others who talk about "burdens" and "guilt" caused by the Church... "pressure" etc... this came up in RS today and I spoke to the fact that a number of people here express the feeling of "not being good enough"... which, of course, I just don't get. We are told we are not to run faster than we are able... but that we are to be on the path leading back to Heavenly Father, striving to do our best but not going beyond the mark.

No, sorry, I do respect your feelings but don't understand them. I feel only the joy of the gospel. I've served a stake mission, in RS presidencies, RS teacher, etc., and never felt burdened. I am able to find balance in my life with my artwork, gardening, and other activities... all made richer by my church activities. I just don't understand the "guilt."

I am a strong Latter Day Saint woman, doing my best... and I feel fine about it... I'm truly sorry there are those who for some reason feel guilty. Or like they aren't good enough... They are...

Garden Girl

[SearchDog]

The older couple shared that when they were Mormons, they were miserable; they didn't like going to Church, and they felt so burdened because even though they were asked to do so much on behalf of the Mormon Church, they never felt good enough. Now they feel free and happy being away from the Mormon Church.

The older lady put both her hands on my wife's shoulders and pressed down. Then she lifted them suddenly and said, "You feel that difference? That's how I felt after I left the Mormon Church. A big weight was lifted! Just like that!"

Now they attend a local Evangelical Church and everybody is happy there, and they have friends and enjoy participating in the worship services.

My wife said she agreed with them; that she also hates going to the Mormon Church, where basically nobody seems happy to be there, and everybody seems to be laboring under a huge burden. And she knows for sure that she is not happy there.

I always felt that way in elementary school about recess versus having to return to the classroom when the bell rang. The LDS have a service-based doctrine that asks us to continually perfect ourselves. Many Christian churches preach the feel good, free grace, God-loves-me-no-matter-what-so-donâ??t-worry-about-a-thing-because-I-have-faith doctrine.

I think they should worry. And Mormons should lighten up and rejoice more for what they have.

[emeliza]

I always felt that way in elementary school about recess versus having to return to the classroom when the bell rang. The LDS have a service-based doctrine that asks us to continually perfect ourselves. Many Christian churches preach the feel good, free grace, God-loves-me-no-matter-what-so-donâ??t-worry-about-a-thing-because-I-have-faith doctrine.

I think they should worry. And Mormons should lighten up and rejoice more for what they have.

Balance is definitely good in all things. Hard work and fun should go hand and hand and when possible, at the same time. I think this is often more of an individual issue than the organization at large though.

[consiglieri]

Again, I want to thank those posters who were willing to lay aside our differences to appreciate my attempt to help consig and his wife in some way. I only wish I had something better to offer, other than to say I understand, because Iâ??ve been there.

Maybe just understanding is the best offering of all.

For my part, having read your posts on this thread, I have come to understand where you are coming from in a way that I would never have understood otherwise, and that understanding helps me color your posts on other subjects, at well.

Instead of the stark black and white I used to see in what you had to say, I now view you through pastels of affection and respect.

And for some reason, I am led to remember that Jesus was crucified outside the city walls.

(I honestly don't know if that last bit makes any sense, but it is what I am feeling in my heart, so I thought I would share it.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri