My Wife's Encounter with some Lovely Ex-Mormons

[mfbukowski]

I'd like to assume that he hasn't read the whole thread yet. I'm hopeful that he'll soften his barb when he does.

We probably need to cut him some slack. His response just before this was to James Bond on a comment on page 14- four pages back. He's just catching up.

[Hoops22]

I'd like to assume that he hasn't read the whole thread yet. I'm hopeful that he'll soften his barb when he does.

Pahoran - the best evidence FOR mc-ism.

Oops, forgot the smiley, Pahoran my friend - I'm just pickin' atcha.

[phaedrus ut]

Wow.

150+ dead in an Italian earthquake.

180+ dead in Australian bushfires.

Tens of thousands losing their homes to mortgage foreclosures and millions out of work.

And now Brother and Sister Consiglieri have to to a whole 3 hours a week without being entertained.

It really puts all that other suffering in perspective, doesn't it?

Regards,

Pahoran

What a lovely sentiment Pahoran.

[alter idem]

I'd like to assume that he hasn't read the whole thread yet. I'm hopeful that he'll soften his barb when he does.

"Assume"? You are being too kind Alf-- Of course he didn't read it--and now I understand Pahoran better. I doubt he wastes his time reading the threads he comments on. He's only interested in posting his gems for us to marvel at, not reading what others have to say.

Pahoran; you really blew it. Very bad form.

[Mudcat]

We probably need to cut him some slack. His response just before this was to James Bond on a comment on page 14- four pages back. He's just catching up.

*Disgruntled, Mudcat douses the fire and rolls his man sized kettle of boiling oil back into the storage closet.*

Seriously, I think so. Hopefully he will take the time to catchup .... but who knows.

[jwhitlock]

"Assume"? You are being too kind Alf-- Of course he didn't read it--and now I understand Pahoran better. I doubt he wastes his time reading the threads he comments on. He's only interested in posting his gems for us to marvel at, not reading what others have to say.

Pahoran; you really blew it. Very bad form.

Then again, Consig himself has been known to kick the Beehive just for effect from time to time, so I'm not sure it's worth getting that worked up about Pahoran's post.

[beastie]

No one should be surprised by Pahoran's response. If they are, they haven't been paying attention to the things he's been saying to exmormons for years.

[Teancum]

Pahoran,

Most of the time no one can say it like you. However, I think this was a little out of line. What good could it accomplish? Do you really think that the above post contributed anything meaningful to the discussion?

It is a wonderful thing nobody can say it like Pahoran. His acidic and acerbic style precedes him and he has a reputation that is not one that I would envy.

And yes, this post was nastier than most.

[Pahoran]

Consig,

ignoring the detritus from the peanut gallery:

4. Some of the posts have veered away from what is really at the root of my wife's issue, which is much deeper than simply wishing she could be "entertained" at Church. If I were smarter or more perceptive, I would have known this for some time, but I am neither, and so when my wife opened up to me about this on Saturday night and told me for the first time how she felt about things, it struck me forcefully.

In relating this, I am in a bit of a dilemma, not only because it is so personal to my wife, but also because Ben MacKay has showed up here (Hi, Ben! And thanks for the support!) and he actually knows me and my family, and so I feel it necessary to be even more oblique in what I say, although I will try to do so in such a way as to give a correct impression without revealing the details.

My wife's problem is not so much with the Church but with God. She is angry and perplexed by how God has dealt with her in her life. God has in some ways not been so much a loving Heavenly Father to my wife as He has appeared to be a cruel and malevolent trickster.

For the first seventeen years of my wife's life, she suffered some of the greatest trials and sufferings that could be imagined, and was not able to tell anybody about it and get any help for fear of retaliation, and for fear of not being believed. Her prayers for deliverance went unanswered. Finally, she was able to end that nightmare by reaching an age of maturity where she could determine for herself where she lived and who she was around. Since then, she has never seen her father again.

She was damaged horribly, but survived. I knew her in high school and would never have believed that she was enduring something so terrible, because she was beautiful and radiant; I could not have guessed what her smile concealed, or that she contemplated suicide.

As a result, her greatest fear was that something of a similar nature would happen to her own daughter(s); and she pledged herself to protect her daughter(s) so that her daughters would not have to experience what she had experienced and suffer as she had suffered.

In her mid-thirties, my wife faced a choice to make about creating a new family relationship through a second marriage. God intervened and in a way that she could not deny, revealed to her that she should marry a second time.

As a direct result of her following God's will and marrying a second time, her greatest fear was realized and her daughter was victimized in the same way she had been.

My wife's faith in God has been devastated. She has tried her best to be good and true and Christlike in dealing with this, and caused me to cry on numerous occasions when I see how forgiving she has been; more forgiving that I could be if I were in her position.

As she expressed to me her struggle, "Doesn't God know the future? God knew what would happen if I entered into a second marriage. And yet God didn't just not warn me away from it, God deliberately led me into it."

As she also said, "I feel like maybe there are a number of different Gods, and some are better than others; and some members get the 'B' God and I got the 'Q' God."

My wife feels betrayed by that God who is supposed to love her.

Any thoughts?

So now the other shoe has dropped. This makes more sense.

I apologise for my former post. It was made when I had not seen this one, and addressed only the OP. (FWIW, I wrote it up while I was offline yesterday and posted it shortly after I connected.)

Hopefully no-one here knows you IRL, but don't bet on Internet anonymity; it's a pretty ephemeral thing, and all too easy to penetrate.

I'm very sorry to hear about all the bad things that have happened to your wife. But she needs to know that they have been solely the result of the conscious, bad decisions of mortals. God didn't play any tricks on her. There is no-one she could have married who would have been flawless.

We chose to sustain a plan that included agency; and with that choice came all the consequences, good and ill. We have the power to make real choices that have real consequences, and thus change the world; this is a truly Godlike power. The corollary to that is that we live in a fallen world populated by free beings, and thus inevitably there will be some who choose the wrong. And it does seem that while some people endure dreadful trials and sufferings, others seem to skate through with barely a care in the world.

And yet I doubt that there would be many extended families anywhere that are completely untouched by most of the common forms of child abuse.

And it has been suggested that those apparently lucky few who really do manage to avoid having any real trials in their lives may well have to make them up somehow in the future, like a test that was missed and must be passed to complete a course.

The ultimate cure for these ills is the Atonement. But in the meantime, don't be too hasty in turning down the possibility of professional counselling. It's not a panacea, but it can help people work things through.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Tchild2]

Dupe

[Mudcat]

It is a wonderful thing nobody can say it like Pahoran. His acidic and acerbic style precedes him and he has a reputation that is not one that I would envy.

He has always been fair with me and we've butted heads on more than one occasion.

Regardless of the criticisms, I think he is a good guy with good heart. Though, I do think at times he would make a very adequate poster boy for John Wayne Toilet Paper.

[Pahoran]

Pahoran - the best evidence FOR mc-ism.

Oops, forgot the smiley, Pahoran my friend - I'm just pickin' atcha.

That's just fine, Hoops. I'll accept the accolade: after all, saying that some instance I is the best of some set S is more of a commentary upon S than it is upon I, since it merely gives us a benchmark for the quality of the rest of the set.

When do you get to Sinny?

Regards,

Pahoran

[beastie]

Hoops and Mudcat -

Out of curiosity, because I'm not familiar with your history, are you exmormons who became Evangelicals, or were you never LDS? There's a reason for my question that I'll share after you all answer. Thanks!

[Mudcat]

Hoops and Mudcat -

Out of curiosity, because I'm not familiar with your history, are you exmormons who became Evangelicals, or were you never LDS? There's a reason for my question that I'll share after you all answer. Thanks!

Hi Beastie,

No I'm not an ex-mormon.

[Hoops22]

That's just fine, Hoops. I'll accept the accolade: after all, saying that some instance I is the best of some set S is more of a commentary upon S than it is upon I, since it merely gives us a benchmark for the quality of the rest of the set. ;)When do you get to Sinny?Regards,Pahoran

Doesn't quite impress the way you wish, but not a bad turnaround.Things are still up in the air re: Sydney. Could know tomorrow, next month, six months, or not at all. But I'm workin' at it, would be a nice boost for me. Plus, I have the barbecue to look forward to - now that's motivation!

Hoops and Mudcat - Out of curiosity, because I'm not familiar with your history, are you exmormons who became Evangelicals, or were you never LDS? There's a reason for my question that I'll share after you all answer. Thanks!

Me neither.

[consiglieri]

I apologise for my former post. It was made when I had not seen this one, and addressed only the OP. (FWIW, I wrote it up while I was offline yesterday and posted it shortly after I connected.)

I'm very sorry to hear about all the bad things that have happened to your wife. But she needs to know that they have been solely the result of the conscious, bad decisions of mortals. God didn't play any tricks on her. There is no-one she could have married who would have been flawless.

No problemo, mi amigo.

With some of the posts I have made, I can't afford to throw stones.

I think my wife understands about free agency and how people use that to do horrible things.

The problem she has is with God specifically leading her into a situation where God knew such horrible things would be replicated in her life.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Uncertain]

No problemo, mi amigo.

With some of the posts I have made, I can't afford to throw stones.

I think my wife understands about free agency and how people use that to do horrible things.

The problem she has is with God specifically leading her into a situation where God knew such horrible things would be replicated in her life.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Hi Consiglieri,

Perhaps I am not the best person to answer this since I have my own doubts concerning LDS epistemology. I think this issue really boils down to the problem of evil which theists have been struggling with for hundreds if not thousands of years frankly there is no easy answer. Your wife's case is especially problematic because your wife entered into her second marriage due primarily to Gods direction.

But maybe God did not know such horrible things would be replicated in your wife's life. That is if one is a believer in open theism the future does not exist to be known by anyone even God. Now the idea that God could not predict with a 100 percent accuracy that your wife's second marriage would lead to the problems it did is probably not going to be well received among most LDS but it is a possible solution.

When discussing such abstract problems as why God (assuming he exists) allows bad things to happen to good people. I think it is easy to lose sight of the fact that for many this is not just an abstract puzzle to be solved. But a real fact of their life and whatever the reason for why God allows such things to happen it is up to us to "mourn with those that mourn" and "comfort those that stand in need of comfort". Whatever decision is made concerning the church by you and your wife I hope her pain will be eased and her burden lightened.

All the Best,

Uncertain

[Anijen]

Consig,

about Uncertains post, IMO, He (God) certainly did know that it would happen.. I think that these type of problems that God knew about, led or guided people into it knowing that they would be harmed is one of the most difficult questions to answer, in many forms have been asked for centuries, IE why does He allow suffering etc?

All I know Consig is my prayers are with you and your wife and children. It isn't much but sometimes God will use the tragedy of one to bring others to Christ. Remember with Lazarus, Lazarus was very sick, but before he ever died Jesus said that his sickness was "for the glory of God" (John 11:2-4). Later, in John 11:45, we read that ". . . . many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him." Now at first this might appear as a sadistic God, I'm sure your wife has thought this as many of us have.

I hope that whatever comes out of this brings a greater experience and sympathy for those who have gone through this. Perhaps your wife could become a counselor for those who have been abused. She would know by first hand their pain, their sadness, their anger and perhaps she can help them through it. I dunno but I pray for the best. And perhaps she can help them.

Anijen

[AtticusFinch]

ok...my 2 cents....

In my opinion, Church is not supposed to be easy! Believing in God is HARD. We are expected to to be perfect (Matt 5:48). We are supposed to follow the commandments.

I believe many people leave the Catholic Church and/or LDS Church because it is easier to belong to feel-good Churches where you are once-saved always-saved and no matter what sin you commit, you are fine. It is easier to go to a Church where you are not asked to make visits, to follow commandments, etc.

God is not looking for those who handle "easy" with no problem. God is looking for those who are willing to be refined thru the refiner's fire.

[wenglund]

The problem she has is with God specifically leading her into a situation where God knew such horrible things would be replicated in her life. All the Best! --Consiglieri

It is not uncommon for people who have been abused to focus almost exclusively on the negative side of the God ledger. Interestingly enough, though, it is also not uncommon for people to move past the abuse and get on with having a rich and fulfilling and happy life, by focusing on the postive side of the God ledger. At least gratitude worked to enable me to rise above certain of life's challenges.

Just a thought.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[beastie]

Thanks, mudcat and hoops for answering. I was curious because you had both said Pahoran has treated you decently, overall. I've been on boards with Pahoran for years, and I noticed a long time ago he does treat "never-been-LDS" posters with general decency. He seems to reserve his special vitriol for exmormons. I predict if consig's wife ever becomes an exmormon, he will revert to his former analysis of her problem.

[Calm]

It is not uncommon for people who have been abused to focus almost exclusively on the negative side of the God ledger. Interestingly enough, though, it is also not uncommon for people to move past the abuse and get on with having a rich and fulfilling and happy life, by focusing on the postive side of the God ledger.

This contrast in perception has become most obvious to me by observing the reactions over time in a family close to my own. A child had a potentially terminal illness (not cancer, but close to it), but it was discovered in the nick of time through the persistence of the parents (the first doctor royally screwed up diagnosis, if they had waited another day instead of bringing him back in it could have been too late) and with an extensive and painful treatment that probably has left him with some long term medical issues, he is alive today and considered free of the disease.

One parent is extraordinarily grateful for God saving the son and for providing her personally with the strength to carry on through the crisis, the other parent is angry that God would make his son suffer so much so unnecessarily, feels betrayed. These attitudes are not out of the blue, but appear to be developed from a certain focus that each has experienced throughout their lives. As time goes on, the one seems more and more grateful and the other appears to be having a hard time of seeing value in much of his life.

While there are good reasons, I believe, for people's negative reactions, I think it's essential that we try hard to make positive reactions a habit and save the 'negative' reactions for very short term emotional releases lest we lose the ability to appreciate life to its fullest.

[Calm]

The problem she has is with God specifically leading her into a situation where God knew such horrible things would be replicated in her life.

This is a much more critical problem than just her feeling at home in Church, such an issue is going to have implications for every aspect of her life. I hope she finds a way of resolving this in a positive fashion...for both of yours sake.

[ERMD]

Two thoughts:

1. Abr. 3: 25

And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

2. Job. (I don't think it's an allegory/myth. Neither did the Lord.)

Incredible faith is required. My wife is 2 years into breast cancer treatment. Her "battle scars" equal her height. She has had 6 months of brutal chemotherapy, both breasts removed and reconstructed, both ovaries removed, scar revisions after staph infections, and she learned last week that she has cervical dysplasia.

Sometimes, bad things just happen to good people.

(I'm not trying to play "can you top this".)

All the best.

[beastie]

My wife's problem is not so much with the Church but with God. She is angry and perplexed by how God has dealt with her in her life. God has in some ways not been so much a loving Heavenly Father to my wife as He has appeared to be a cruel and malevolent trickster.

For the first seventeen years of my wife's life, she suffered some of the greatest trials and sufferings that could be imagined, and was not able to tell anybody about it and get any help for fear of retaliation, and for fear of not being believed. Her prayers for deliverance went unanswered. Finally, she was able to end that nightmare by reaching an age of maturity where she could determine for herself where she lived and who she was around. Since then, she has never seen her father again.

She was damaged horribly, but survived. I knew her in high school and would never have believed that she was enduring something so terrible, because she was beautiful and radiant; I could not have guessed what her smile concealed, or that she contemplated suicide.

As a result, her greatest fear was that something of a similar nature would happen to her own daughter(s); and she pledged herself to protect her daughter(s) so that her daughters would not have to experience what she had experienced and suffer as she had suffered.

In her mid-thirties, my wife faced a choice to make about creating a new family relationship through a second marriage. God intervened and in a way that she could not deny, revealed to her that she should marry a second time.

As a direct result of her following God's will and marrying a second time, her greatest fear was realized and her daughter was victimized in the same way she had been.

My wife's faith in God has been devastated. She has tried her best to be good and true and Christlike in dealing with this, and caused me to cry on numerous occasions when I see how forgiving she has been; more forgiving that I could be if I were in her position.

As she expressed to me her struggle, "Doesn't God know the future? God knew what would happen if I entered into a second marriage. And yet God didn't just not warn me away from it, God deliberately led me into it."

As she also said, "I feel like maybe there are a number of different Gods, and some are better than others; and some members get the 'B' God and I got the 'Q' God."

My wife feels betrayed by that God who is supposed to love her.

Consig â??

Iâ??m a bit hesitant to respond to this because Iâ??m an atheist, I donâ??t want you to interpret my words as a push towards atheism. But itâ??s not possible for me respond without that being part of my perspective.

I was a convert to the LDS church at the age of 19. I was enthusiastic member, immersing myself in prayer and scripture study, as well as church callings, both at BYU and later in my home ward. I also served a mission to a notoriously low-baptizing region: France. My mission was extraordinarily difficult, and is the only period in my life in which I was probably clinically depressed. A great deal of my depression had to do with constantly being told that if we missionaries would only be worthy enough and have enough faith, God would lead us to his sheep, the field being white already to harvest. We were instructed in the method detailed in Drawing on the Power of Heaven, emphasizing being open to the guidance of the spirit. I know my companions and I did our best to be faithful and worthy, and prayed constantly for guidance. We really, really wanted to find those golden converts. Other companionships appeared to be equally devoted and eager. Yet we experienced failure after failure. By the end of my mission I had taught two young women who were baptized: one had really been taught by the elders, but they were forced to turn her over to the sisters for final instruction. She was not interested in the discussions and far more interested in the elders. The other sister seemed genuinely converted, but fell away within months. One of the most faithful sisters in the mission had not had one single baptism her entire mission, and she was far from alone. My two baptisms were considered a success for my particular mission, or so I was informed by my MP.

When I returned home, I continued to experience depression, and even began to doubt the existence of God for a very brief period. I could not understand why, despite all my attempts to be faithful and open to the spirit, God simply did not lead us to people who were ready for the gospel. However, I soon shelved these doubts and just viewed it as a trial of my faith.

A little over a year later I met a young LDS man who lived about an hour from my home. There were not many eligible, active LDS young men to date. I had pretty much reconciled myself to never marrying. But I was overwhelmed by this young man, who had obtained my phone number and name from our Stake President. Not only did I fall quickly in love with him, but I felt the Spirit pulling me toward him. By our third date he proposed. I had already been praying fervently about him, because the attraction and the spirit was so strong. The answer had to be yes. I â??knewâ? this was the man HF intended me to marry. We were married in the temple within three months of our first date. He began his cycle of vicious emotional abuse and intimidation on our honeymoon. I was shocked and devastated. If I had had any sense, I would have had the marriage immediately annulled. But I loved him, and I knew God had sent me to him to â??helpâ? him. I prayed fervently that God would help me heal him, that God would heal him, that he would allow me to love him. I could not consider divorcing him. I had married him in the temple. I couldnâ??t bear to disrespect those covenants. So I stayed with him, had three children with him. I prayed constantly that God would spare my children the effects of his abusive nature. Any sane person would have told me to leave, but God had told me to marry this man, and I had made sacred promises in the House of the Lord â?? and we had children. The LDS church spoke so harshly about divorce, I couldnâ??t consider doing that to my children. I was trapped. My husband knew I was trapped. He knew I could never consider divorce. He knew I would forgive him repeatedly in the hopes that things would change. I look back at my time in this marriage, which lasted almost 15 years, and I cannot believe I stayed with him. I cannot believe I thought God would want me to endure such horrific treatment â?? and yet God had told me to marry him. So of course I had to believe this was Godâ??s will. It was another trial of my faith, like my mission. In fact, I grew to believe that my mission had been to prepare me for the trial of my marriage. If I could make it through my mission, I could make it through this marriage.

Of course, I eventually lost my faith in the LDS church. Ironically, that is also when my husband began to try and temper his abuse, although he could never completely control it. (Around that time he was diagnosed with bipolar as well, but refused treatment. His abuse was not caused by his bipolar, although it worsened during his episodes) Why did he attempt to control himself after I left the church? He knew that, one day, I would realize that the prison door had been unlocked. He knew my religious beliefs were the lock on that door. Once I no longer believed God had ordained me to be his wife in some way, and once I no longer believed if I prayed hard enough God would heal him, and once I no longer believed divorcing him would violate sacred covenants â?? it was just a matter of time before I left him. And he was right. Two years after I left the church, I finally left him, and by so doing, gave my children the chance to have a better life.

Iâ??m not sure there is a way to reconcile this issue. The real issue for me wasnâ??t that life wasnâ??t easy, that someone treated me badly â?? I expected life to have serious trials. That was part of the point. The real issue for me was that God had told me to marry him. Of course, I did end up with my three wonderful children, but having an emotionally abusive and mentally ill father hasnâ??t made their lives easy, either. They are still dealing with some of those issues. Why didnâ??t God want me to be with a man who actually loved me, and would have been a good father to my children? Itâ??s one thing to consider that God wants you to be abused for some higher purpose, but I donâ??t think any mother can bring herself to believe God wants her children to be abused for some higher purpose. It wasnâ??t just â??allowingâ? it to happen â?? God made it happen by telling me to marry him.

I think that, if someone remains a believer in God, the only way to â??dealâ? with this is to shelve it, and tell yourself that one day God will help you understand, because, frankly, I think it is beyond human understanding in this lifetime.

My heart aches for your wife. She is so lucky to have you, just as I am lucky to have my loving sweetie as well. But even your love canâ??t erase this pain, particularly since her child was hurt. Counseling, of course, can help deal with the after-effects of abuse, but I donâ??t think counseling can resolve the underlying question of why God did this to her and her child.