My Wife's Encounter with some Lovely Ex-Mormons

[Bond...James Bond]

I have. He is real, he has a presence, and to be in that presence is to peer into an abyss of darkness that cannot be described. I dare not elaborate further.

Please do. What did he look like? What color was he? How do you know he's a "he"? Eye color? Height? Did he have love handles? Inquiring minds wish to know.

[i love your avatar and name btw...Roman history is one of my interests.]

[Aquilifer]

Please do. What did he look like? What color was he? How do you know he's a "he"? Eye color? Height? Did he have love handles? Inquiring minds wish to know.

[i love your avatar and name btw...Roman history is one of my interests.]

You deride what you don't understand. I told you, I'm done with that subject.

[Rome is a personal passion]

[William Schryver]

I know it has been said already, but Elder Oaks talk is a must for all of us and especially many who have been posting on this particular thread. I must admit that I have been at a loss of words for those who are in the "I have a testimony but I hate going to church" camp. I just don't get it. Perhaps another one of Elder Oaks talks, this one from a few years ago would be worth reading again. His talk on becoming...that there is a difference between knowing and real conversion. I guess it is entirely possible to merely know the church is true and not enjoy the full blessings of Sabbath Day observance, I would be hard pressed however to find anyone...anyone who is truly converted to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ who can't find something positive to say about going to church. The word "hate" wouldn't even be in the same paragraph!!!

Scott26.2

Both my wife and I (with whom I had shared the essential thrust of this thread) looked at each other in the middle of Elder Oaks' talk and expressed some measure of surprise that he had seemingly been following this thread during the preparation of his talk.

And what a talk it was! I know that after he and Elder Bednar were done, I was feeling pretty chastened at just about every level of my soul.

[AlwaysThinking]

I truly believe that we are talking about personality styles here. Some people are introverted. Being around that many people just drains them. For them, church is hard to endure.

I, on the other hand, am extremely extroverted. It was never a struggle for me to attend, because I loved it. I loved singing the hymns, being around people, participating in lessons, and so on. In my journal as a teenager, I often commented about how church was my favorite place to be.

I loved attending so much that it took me a loooooong time to finally quit attending, even though I didn't believe. I happily kept my lack of belief to myself, while holding callings and participating as if I believed. I finally quit attending when there was just no way to reconcile my beliefs with attending.

As a believer, I could totally have read this thread and patted myself on my back, with a smug comment about how going to church was the highlight of my week, how it fills my soul, and energizes me. Because, hey, I must be doing something right, since I like church so much. The spirit must be strong with me. I would have been aghast and sorrowful for the poor souls who are not so inspired as to enjoy church as much as me. What are they doing wrong?

Of course, I attended because I believed, but now I also see how much of it was because it also suited my personality.

[LDSMusic483]

LOL. You make the claim that he exists by saying "Satan would see his opportunity, and take it."

Have you seen him?

Check your sources, I never said that. I quoted that scripture after you said Satan didn't exist. So prove he doesn't exist. I've never seen you, maybe you don't exist. Maybe a computer creates your posts and is void of real intelligence for all I know. Seeing is not believing.

[LDSMusic483]

Please do. What did he look like? What color was he? How do you know he's a "he"? Eye color? Height? Did he have love handles? Inquiring minds wish to know.

[i love your avatar and name btw...Roman history is one of my interests.]

If you are going to try to engage in "gotcha" questions, at least ask some that make sense. Love handles? You really think an individual never to have flesh is going to have love handles?

[Stargazer]

I truly believe that we are talking about personality styles here. Some people are introverted. Being around that many people just drains them. For them, church is hard to endure.

I, on the other hand, am extremely extroverted. It was never a struggle for me to attend, because I loved it. I loved singing the hymns, being around people, participating in lessons, and so on. In my journal as a teenager, I often commented about how church was my favorite place to be.

I loved attending so much that it took me a loooooong time to finally quit attending, even though I didn't believe. I happily kept my lack of belief to myself, while holding callings and participating as if I believed. I finally quit attending when there was just no way to reconcile my beliefs with attending.

As a believer, I could totally have read this thread and patted myself on my back, with a smug comment about how going to church was the highlight of my week, how it fills my soul, and energizes me. Because, hey, I must be doing something right, since I like church so much. The spirit must be strong with me. I would have been aghast and sorrowful for the poor souls who are not so inspired as to enjoy church as much as me. What are they doing wrong?

Of course, I attended because I believed, but now I also see how much of it was because it also suited my personality.

Interesting. On the other hand, I am very much an introvert, although in my maturity I discovered that I like lecturing people. My kids just love that part lol. I am happiest when pretty much by myself. It is a bit of a strain on my marriage that I like to get away (upstairs, on the computer or reading or writing) frequently when home with just my wife and I. I love attending church because of the spirit that I get filled with there. Even with substandard talks I enjoy basking in the light of the Spirit. General Conference this weekend was glorious in that regard. But I don't particularly care for Sunday School or Priesthood. And I think this is because it requires participation to a certain extent. I definitely believe, and I attend church because of that, but left to myself I would be pretty solitary.

[Lightbearer]

Well Consig, after going through this rather lengthy thread I am still waiting for the "other shoe to drop." I reply to you more in sadness than in anger... but I have seen this coming for a long time. The sum total of your posts to this board that I have observed over the past year or more has been leading up to this. Basically that you are "tired of the church" because it is too boring or something. I assume your comments about "hating" going to church is your usual hyperbole so I let that pass. I hope you watched all the sessions of the Conference, because there was some great instruction and help available to all if one had "ears to hear."

I had a profound experience that I repeat here in hopes it will be of some value. If not just ignore it. But the reason I share it is because of your post.

It occurred at the Priesthood Session, earlier that day I was in a good mood, although of late I had been worrying over the economic situation and my job and such. When my father and I arrived and sat down to watch the broadcast I was overcome with the feeling of gloominess and doom, in fact I became so agitated I could barely pay attention to the speakers. I had a terrible feeling of not wanting to be there, and I had never felt this way about going to Conference or especially the Priesthood Session. It got so bad that I felt despair and was going to ask my father to give me a priesthood blessing of comfort and counsel right after the meeting. I prayed silently that I might have this depressing spirit removed from me. Then President Thomas S Monson rose to speak, and as he spoke it seems as if the thick "mists of darkness" that had gathered around me was dispersed and the light and peace of the Gospel shone forth into my soul. His words to "fear not" or rather that "fear" is the opposite of "faith" encouraged me and brought tears to my eyes. I felt the comforting assurance of the Holy Ghost and I knew that all would be well. My fears were unfounded and that the God of Heaven notices a "sparrow falling to the ground" so why not me? In addition to the comfort from my personal problems and fears, I had an additional witness of the mantle of the Prophet of God. The next day the Sunday sessions were very inspiring and uplifting. I will comment more on them when the texts are released online. I really hope that the God of Peace will comfort your troubled heart as He has mine.

God bless,

Lightbearer

[Black Moclips]

I haven't read through all the pages of this thread, but I'm going to comment anyway. I would like to commend Consig for his honesty. It is a tough thing to do, to really admit how you feel. I suspect many who have a problem how Consig is feeling probably have their own hidden fears, doubts, and struggles. We all have them.

And I can empathize with how Consig and his wife feel. I also dislike going to church for many of the same reasons. But the Gospel, if there is one, isn't Sunday church. The Gospel isn't attending meetings or reciting what you think you know about God. The Gospel is found in your own personal, daily struggle on this planet. In its simplest form, its about how you treat other people around you. Your family, your friends, your work associates, all those who you come in contact with. It is realizing that God loves each and every one of them, just like he loves you. It is about you trying to love them in that same way. It is about doing unto them as you would have done to you. It is about realizing mistakes in your own life and trying to correct them. If you never went to a second of church in your whole life, but were able to develop a true love and charity for you fellow man, I don't think you have ANYTHING to worry about.

So Consig, know that there are many of us out there just like you, each struggling in his/her own way. I wish you the best of luck on your journey.

[John Williams]

It's fascinating to see how this thread has evolved into a referendum on the state of consiglieri's soul. There is no law that a faithful Latter-day Saint must of necessity enjoy church meetings. My brother-in-law, who is one of the most faithful people I know, describes church meetings as "brutal" and "excruciating," but, he says, he attends because he knows they are for his benefit.

My mother majored in nutrition in college, and when we were growing up, if we didn't like the food we were given, she would explain the nutritional value and make us eat it whether we wanted to or not. Maybe church meetings are the same way: it doesn't matter whether we like them or not, but they are good for our souls. And forcing yourself to enjoy the meetings serves no real purpose.

If I could convince myself that church meetings were good for me, I might even go back. But for my brother-in-law and consiglieri (as well as countless others), they believe that the meetings are good for them. And that should be enough.

[emeliza]

Maybe you two need to write more of your naughty notes in Sacrament meeting??

That was a good one. I completely agree there.

[consiglieri]

I just got done reading through all the posts in this thread.

Wow!

I really would like to thank everybody who has participated and for all the wonderful suggestions, comments and support.

A few comments that I would like to make:

1. Some have thought I said I "hated" going to Church when I was actually relating what my wife said to me. (I did say I often find meetings "interminable," but do not believe I said I "hated" going myself.)

This seems to have hurt the feelings of at least one poster who is dear to me. I was saddened to see this.

2. Relating the feelings of my wife seems to have been cathartic to a good many posters who appear to have been moved to express similar feelings on their own part; and I think this is all to the good. Perhaps talking about it is a step toward healing in some regard. At least knowing there are other active LDS who feel similarly is probably helpful, even if it doesn't actually resolve the difficulty.

3. I have been pleased to see that many supportive and understanding posts have come from non-LDS and ex-LDS and even critics, who did not see this as a situation to be exploited in order to get me and my wife to leave the Church and "join them," but were kind in their comments and understanding in their expressions of encouragement.

4. Some of the posts have veered away from what is really at the root of my wife's issue, which is much deeper than simply wishing she could be "entertained" at Church. If I were smarter or more perceptive, I would have known this for some time, but I am neither, and so when my wife opened up to me about this on Saturday night and told me for the first time how she felt about things, it struck me forcefully.

In relating this, I am in a bit of a dilemma, not only because it is so personal to my wife, but also because Ben MacKay has showed up here (Hi, Ben! And thanks for the support!) and he actually knows me and my family, and so I feel it necessary to be even more oblique in what I say, although I will try to do so in such a way as to give a correct impression without revealing the details.

My wife's problem is not so much with the Church but with God. She is angry and perplexed by how God has dealt with her in her life. God has in some ways not been so much a loving Heavenly Father to my wife as He has appeared to be a cruel and malevolent trickster.

For the first seventeen years of my wife's life, she suffered some of the greatest trials and sufferings that could be imagined, and was not able to tell anybody about it and get any help for fear of retaliation, and for fear of not being believed. Her prayers for deliverance went unanswered. Finally, she was able to end that nightmare by reaching an age of maturity where she could determine for herself where she lived and who she was around. Since then, she has never seen her father again.

She was damaged horribly, but survived. I knew her in high school and would never have believed that she was enduring something so terrible, because she was beautiful and radiant; I could not have guessed what her smile concealed, or that she contemplated suicide.

As a result, her greatest fear was that something of a similar nature would happen to her own daughter(s); and she pledged herself to protect her daughter(s) so that her daughters would not have to experience what she had experienced and suffer as she had suffered.

In her mid-thirties, my wife faced a choice to make about creating a new family relationship through a second marriage. God intervened and in a way that she could not deny, revealed to her that she should marry a second time.

As a direct result of her following God's will and marrying a second time, her greatest fear was realized and her daughter was victimized in the same way she had been.

My wife's faith in God has been devastated. She has tried her best to be good and true and Christlike in dealing with this, and caused me to cry on numerous occasions when I see how forgiving she has been; more forgiving that I could be if I were in her position.

As she expressed to me her struggle, "Doesn't God know the future? God knew what would happen if I entered into a second marriage. And yet God didn't just not warn me away from it, God deliberately led me into it."

As she also said, "I feel like maybe there are a number of different Gods, and some are better than others; and some members get the 'B' God and I got the 'Q' God."

My wife feels betrayed by that God who is supposed to love her.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[JangoStango]

As she expressed to me her struggle, "Doesn't God know the future? God knew what would happen if I entered into a second marriage. And yet God didn't just not warn me away from it, God deliberately led me into it."

As she also said, "I feel like maybe there are a number of different Gods, and some are better than others; and some members get the 'B' God and I got the 'Q' God."

My wife feels betrayed by that God who is supposed to love her.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

My mother in law had a series of bad marriages to very bad men that my wife had to live through. My mother in law and her two oldest daughters still believe in God while my wife and her brother do not. I don't believe in God, even though my life has been pretty good. Believing or not believing is a very personal thing, and it is hard to know even our own reasons for undergoing a change of heart. I hope nobody comes along and offers you a haughty prescription, having it "all figured out", for why your wife is feeling troubled, but I doubt that can be avoided. Best of luck to you and your family, Consiglieri.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

No thoughts. Just the desire to give both you and her a hug.

[mfbukowski]

I had a profound experience that I repeat here in hopes it will be of some value.

Thanks. Wasn't it a great session? Conference is like life. We get out of it what we put into it, and somehow we find in it what we need.

[Black Moclips]

"Men are that they might have JOY"

Do the things that bring you joy in your life!

[mfbukowski]

My wife feels betrayed by that God who is supposed to love her.

--Consiglieri

I am so sorry, but not surprised.

It has been my experience as a bishop that women especially see God as they saw their fathers. Distrust your father as a child and you will tend to distrust God when you're grown.

That initial "violation" or truama programmed her to seek men like her father later in life. I have seen again and again that we seek mates like our parents, at least early in life until we become conscious of the tendency, unless we are consciously looking for someone NOT like our abusive parent. I am sure that she has gotten over it since she found you as well, But it shows that she is/was still carrying the weight of that initial trauma, not surprisingly.

One way or another, she needs to become conscious that this is what she is doing. It could come through counseling or soul searching and prayer, or hopefully just through working it out with you. She probably has a tendency to distrust you as well, so you could become a key person in helping her work this through. Perhaps that is why she found you, so that you could help her.

Just my two cents. You get what you pay for.

[Kevin Christensen]

In the beginning of one of Philip K. ****'s short story collections (the Golden Man), he tells of knowing street girls who endured trials that "beggar description." He refers to a poem by Heine, "Atlas" with a line that haunts me: "I carry that which cannot be carried, and in my body, my heart would like to break."

One of my friends entered into his marriage on the basis of a profound spiritual experience (one of three overwhelming ones that he has known), and soon ran into difficulties caused because she had been victimized by her father. After two children and ten years, their marriage ended in divorce. A lot has happened since then, both in her life and in his. But that remains one of his unanswered questions. Why was the prompting so strong? He doesn't know, and I don't know. I just know that I like what Philip K. **** goes on to say to his readers who are going through difficult times. "Live through it. Only then will you know that it means."

One thing that helps is to also consider those life experiences which do make sense, which do reveal God's love and his purposes in a meaningful way. Understanding such dreadful events may be like trying to understand the point of a play like King Lear, when all you see is the night on the heath, or the blinding of Glouster. Yet, sometimes, there are moments of amazing clarity, even coming out of the worst circumstances. Near the end of Sgt. Nibley Phd, where Alex recounts some stories from the Nazi death camps.

When not everything makes sense, sometimes the best we can do is hold on to the parts that do, and trust that the rest will become clear over time.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Paloma]

My wife feels betrayed by that God who is supposed to love her.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Hi Consig,

I've read this thread with interest, and have had many thoughts but none that would prompt me to reply until now.

Thank you for letting us see more deeply into your wife's heart. As I read what you wrote about some of her story, I was reminded of how I've struggled with a similar sense of betrayal regarding my own young daughter. She too was damaged at a time when my husband and I made a radical choice to follow God and entrust our children to His safekeeping (and that of people we trusted) when we couldn't be there to protect them ourselves.

Some of the thoughts and results that have ensued personally for me and for our family ...

I've realized that there are no guarantees in this life regarding our well-being. I've learned to trust God despite and beyond our circumstances. Especially at this time of year, (Palm Sunday; Good Friday; Easter Sunday when Jesus walking into His own suffering, death and resurrection through obedience and for our redemption) I'm reminded that God "did not spare His own Son". I feel as if undergoing my own sufferings is part of my 'sharing in His sufferings'.

I resonate with those who say "why not me" and "why not us", rather than "why me" and "why us"?

I don't know for sure if God truly led us into a situation where our daughter experienced that harm or not. I've struggled with that, and learned to have peace about it. But I know that we believed we were being obedient. And that God knows the intentions of our hearts, and that He has honoured our choices. I believe that with God, "all things work together for good". If we were in any way careless toward our daughter, which we didn't believe we were at the time and acted in good faith (but I can see how it could appear so) I believe God has understood, forgiven and redeemed our failure.

Our daughter went through some rough years in her life through adolescence and into early adulthood. For years she was angy toward God. But she has become a strong believer and has expressed gratitude for her "bad years". She has an effective way of relating to troubled young people, and now sees her painful experience as a "gift" for ministry.

My husband and I are tremendously thankful for the "overcomer" she's become, with her own wonderful Christian husband and adorable children.

For us, our painful story has ended well. And I think that's the story of Easter.

I hope and pray that your wife may find peace and joy. I know there's a time for sadness and struggle (which never really goes away, in a sense, to be honest and realistic) but I think there's value in the struggle, and that light follows the darkness.

Praying for your family,

Paloma

[SilverKnight]

Consig-

My wife went through something similar when she was young.

Since then she's found great safety in the moral moorings of the Church, especially the way it is designed to protect women and children from such things. As far as systematic moral ideologies go, none are designed to prevent, protect and stop such things from happening more than the Church's.

Truly, what other faith-system risks intrusion more than the LDS church does by regularly asking its members about their conduct with members of their family? The church does everything it can to prevent such abuses in so far as to base worthiness to participate upon it. No other church goes near such places.

[wenglund]

I truly believe that we are talking about personality styles here.

I think this is an important point. From my observation, there are some people who seem to make it their life's quest to be miserable and bored nearly regardless of the situation, while other people are enthrawled with childlike wonder and awe even under the most mundane of circumstance.

I believe, though, that this continuum of personality styles has at least something to do with "self" vs "others" focus, as Elder Oaks intimated.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[charity's child]

As she expressed to me her struggle, "Doesn't God know the future? God knew what would happen if I entered into a second marriage. And yet God didn't just not warn me away from it, God deliberately led me into it."

As she also said, "I feel like maybe there are a number of different Gods, and some are better than others; and some members get the 'B' God and I got the 'Q' God."

My wife feels betrayed by that God who is supposed to love her.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I'm afraid I must be oblique, too, since there are some on this board who know my family. I can truly empathize with your wife in the way few can. However, knowing how I struggled, how hard life was for me, I also know I have gained some things that I could not have gained otherwise. I have been able to be a support for my husband as I could not have been had I not gone through what I had gone through. So knowing what I know now, I would not choose not to have suffered.

God does know the future. And someday, if she works through this time of pain and suffering she will eventually be able to look back and say "it was for the best". I truly believe that. The problem is - that day may not be in this lifetime. So although it takes a great deal of faith to do it, she must hold on.

Please let her know this comes from someone who stood where she did. Maybe not in exactly the same place, but pretty close. And I've come through to the other side. I cannot imagine, though, what it would be like to know it happened to your child as well.

[Bardman]

My heart breaks for you. I believe I have been in a situation distressingly similar to yours. I cannot stress enough the importance of a concerned, qualified, reputable therapist.

My thoughts are with you.

[Paloma]

My heart breaks for you. I believe I have been in a situation distressingly similar to yours. I cannot stress enough the importance of a concerned, qualified, reputable therapist.

My thoughts are with you.

Bard, I echo your thought re the helpfulness of a good therapist. It's too bad that there are are some (few, I hope!) counsellors or therapists who are not the most helpful.

So I agree with your description of a "concerned, qualified, reputable" therapist.

[charity's child]

Bard, I echo your thought re the helpfulness of a good therapist. It's too bad that there are are some (few, I hope!) counsellors or therapists who are not the most helpful.

Been there, seen them. I thank God (quite literally) for our current therapist.

So I agree with your description of a "concerned, qualified, reputable" therapist.