My Wife's Encounter with some Lovely Ex-Mormons

[Calm]

Yet, we are instructed to partake of the sacrament, and meet together often, yes?

Yes.

I think it's important to focus on what was given for the reason to meet together often.

I have found for myself reducing this commandment to its most basic form helped me first focus on making those core things more meaningful to me and then I was able to expand my involvement over time in the less essential, but still important aspects of the church culture and I was able to do the same for them.

[Calm]

My husband came home from Priesthood session and has been relating to me Elder Uchtdorf's (sp?) talk, he was very impressed by it.

It works well for this thread.

At one point he discussed the prophet Nehemiah and his response to his enemies while he was supervising the rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem: Neh t " 3 And I sent messengers unto them, saying, I am doing a great work, so that I cannot come down: why should the work cease, whilst I leave it, and come down to you?"

Elder Uchtdorf's comment was that we all need to approach our faith (and I would assume our lives) with the attitude that we are in involved in a "great work".

I think this is the key for many who are dissatisfied in some way with church (as opposed to the gospel). If we can find our own "great work" (not just a "great work" given to or imposed upon us by others), I believe the issues we have with church culture will often disappear or at least become so trivial that they do not cause us resentment or frustration or unhappiness.

Sometimes this might mean we need to take a new look at an old effort so we now come to see that after all this is a "great work," it is not always required of us and might even be unhealthy to assume that it has to be something new or different from others. It can be joyful to add our efforts to others to work together on something great (Nehemiah certainly could not have done the work all by himself, the labourers were as essential to the great work as he was) as well as energerize others' efforts when we are able to contribute our unique qualities to the foundation they have already built up.

[kawikadave]

Consig,

I read through this thread just before leaving for Priesthood Session this evening and for whatever reason had a few thoughts run through my head during the session relating to your situation.

For what they're worth...

1. It sounds like the relationship your wife has with your ward/attending church could be compared to an unhappy couple considering divorce. Attempts are made to get along, maybe "for the kids", but the love seems to have left and all focus now remains on the negative moments, slights, unsatisfying aspects, and poor qualities of the other "person." No matter how much one wants to start over or make it work, the eye and mind are drawn directly to the minuses instead of the pluses.

2. Some people have suggested that a separation might be the solution. Let her either feel drawn back to the church - see if she misses the positive aspects, or that possibly a separation will help her see that she's just plain happier without her "partner."

3. I have another suggestion, maybe. I watched the movie "FireProof" a few months ago - I know, it's a bit cheesy, but it has a good message. It has a good Christian theme and preaches that the root problem in many divorces is selfishness in one or both of the parties and the solution to break down this selfishness (in the movie) is for the husband to begin to perform selfless acts for his wife. I'm not trying to say your wife is selfish. I don't know her and I don't know her situation beyond what you've said here.

However, here's a simple thing I would propose...

Maybe your wife could try attending church with no intention of getting anything out of it - not social, spiritual, intellectual, emotional, etc. She only goes to church to see who she can help. Maybe it's only a smile. Maybe she helps a young mother with her new baby. Maybe she helps by substituting for a class. Maybe she shares an experience she's had in the past that can help someone else through a similar experience. Maybe she makes a positive uplifting comment to one person.

That's it. Just focus each week on doing that one thing for someone else. Everything is focused on that.

I work with a man in the temple that is just a builder and a lifter of other people. I overhear him talking to others that work there and he is telling them how good they are, how they're an example to him. He lifts everyone around him. It's not an act. He really feels this, but he actually takes the time to share it with each of us.

There's always a need for people like that. Your wife sounds like a great person with a good heart. I'm sure there are many people she can lift and help.

Anyway, those were the thoughts that came to me as I sat in the session. They could be worthless, but hopefully something good will come from them.

[kawikadave]

I suppose I would have to ask, is going to church worshipping God? Just askin is all................... Sunday is about resting, and worshipping God. My personal favorite way is to study the scriptures. I tend to shy away from mettings myself. It's like Nibley who wrote that the zeal for attending meetings is way out of proportion to the desire for real worship, kknowledge, and truth. The impression that attending church and being "active" is worshipping God has always struck me as, well, misguided. Yet, we are instructed to partake of the sacrament, and meet together often, yes?

I think we have to be careful when we "pooh-pooh" the unlearned masses of the church with their poor speaking skills, marginal knowledge of the scriptures & languages and start to believe there is little to be gained by listening to what they have to say. I felt that way when Nibley said it and I feel the same when others say it.

How does God see the unlearned and simple folk (I'm talking about myself here) when they do their best to give a talk and bear their testimony in church? Is there nothing to be gained from it? Is God pleased with what they have to say? I hope he is. Surely they can do better, but many are doing their best.

Beware the man or woman who puts themselves above others because of their education & learning. The Book of Mormon and Bible have many things to say about an attitude that even leans in this direction. Not saying you're doing it Kerry...

I understand the feeling one gets when you're interacting with amateurs in something you love and are good at. I played in a co-ed volleyball league this year with my wife that was... um... quite a few levels below us. We agreed to play because a friend invited us, but it wasn't fun and trying to teach the basics to the other players became tiring to us and them.

Church isn't volleyball, however, and scholarship and worship should never be confused.

[gitxsanartist]

I used to feel that weight to but it had nothing to do with the church but what I thought the church expected of me. Since then I've learned that the expectations I had were my own. I also learned to say no, even to the Bishop.

Having said that I understand how we come to believe that we aren't good enough. We see Sis Perfect doing all these things without any apparent effort. Well guess what I found out some thought I was that Sister, and I would go home an cry because I felt I couldn't do anymore. And guess what I got to know some of those other sisters, and they were just covering up their own fears.

There are a lot of expectations in the church. But what I also came to realize is that the goal is set high but the Lord really doesn't expect us to do it all at once and has told us not to run faster than we are able. We need to look at our current circumstances and obligations and decide what it is we can do now and what might have to be set aside. I have to do the same thing at work. It's called prioritizing.

The church leaders are aware of this problem and have often addressed it. We should love coming to church, which I now do. But it really is all in the attitudes we bring with us.

I can fully understand how going to another church would lift that burden; because nothing is expected of you. They have people who are paid to do all the things we do in church. We can go to church and socialize and go home and not have any further thoughts about it until the next week.

I guess it comes down to what our ultimate goal is. I think we also need to find a reason to enjoy going to church. Whether its to see that sweet elderly lady who always has a smile, or all those little babies (that's why I sit at the back). I'm not always enamored of the lessons or the talks, but I try to think about the principle that's being taught and do my own lesson in my mind.

It isn't easy being a member of this church, but it should not be so hard or so burdensome. It may be time to talk to the Bishop. Years ago my teenage son was getting all stressed out. He had a lot on his plate between school, sports and church. I took him out to lunch so we could talk about it. I told him if he can't handle it all it's ok to not do everything. He needs to decide what is really important. Just talking about it and letting him know he didn't have to do everything lifted the burden. He ended up not dropping anything but found a way to do it all.

I wish you God's blessings in dealing with this. I think most of us have at one time or the other.

You make some very good points. I've noticed that the church seems to instill this sense of inadeqacy in its members or almost a sense of fear or dread that we are not good enough. I haven't yet placed my finger on where it comes from exactly but it is there. I've noticed personally that I miss church for a month and then I am afraid to come back because I am afraid the members in my ward will look at me as "inactive".

A person should be be able to attend a church and be free of guilt trips regardless of where the clergy is paid or not. For as much money the church takes in from tithes and its other corporate interests I think it might actually be good to have one or two full time clergy per ward to help organize and take some of the load off of the members who are already have there hands full with family and work.

I've stopped accepting full time callings simply because I've come to realize that my 5 kids and worn out wife need me and my attention much more than the church does, it all depends on your priorities and what your situation in life is. Remember and man should not run faster than he has strength.

[Calm]

I've noticed that the church seems to instill this sense of inadeqacy in its members or almost a sense of fear or dread that we are not good enough.

I'd like to see some documentation on the numbers on this and an analysis that accurately demonstrates that this--when it happens-- is a result of the Church and not a result of either family dynamics or the greater culture which the individual lives in.

Too often I see members assume that others feel the same way they do, it seems especially easy to project fear or inadequacy into the words of others that may not actually feel that way about their challenges.

There are, after all, many members who I've heard state that they believe the Church/Gospel has given them a greater sense of self-worth as they now truly view themselves even though they experience hardships and challenges in life which they are not always up to meeting on their own.

I've noticed personally that I miss church for a month and then I am afraid to come back because I am afraid the members in my ward will look at me as "inactive".

I've missed church for several months at a time. When I make it back, it is not with fear but looking forward to reconnecting with those I've missed.

I remember when my husband was called in to discuss my "inactivity". I had only been to SM for quite some time during that period in my life. I had no more misgivings in attending the following week than I had the prior one.

You might want to consider your expectations.

[kawikadave]

I've noticed that the church seems to instill this sense of inadeqacy in its members or almost a sense of fear or dread that we are not good enough.

Hmmm... "the church" does this? Could you be more specific? Maybe it's not "the church." Maybe it's something or someone else.

I've noticed personally that I miss church for a month and then I am afraid to come back because I am afraid the members in my ward will look at me as "inactive".

You should care absolutely not at all what people at church are thinking or not thinking. You should come to church to renew your covenants, strengthen your testimony and to worship. What anyone else thinks or doesn't think is meaningless.

For as much money the church takes in from tithes and its other corporate interests I think it might actually be good to have one or two full time clergy per ward to help organize and take some of the load off of the members who are already have there hands full with family and work.

Wow. The church is "rich" so they should pay someone to come in and do the ministering you could do for free. Is that it?

It's not about the money. It's about service. It's about learning. It's about serving God with ALL of your heart, might, mind, and strength.

[e=mc2]

My husband came home from Priesthood session and has been relating to me Elder Uchtdorf's (sp?) talk, he was very impressed by it.

It works well for this thread.

At one point he discussed the prophet Nehemiah and his response to his enemies while he was supervising the rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem: Neh t " 3 And I sent messengers unto them, saying, I am doing a great work, so that I cannot come down: why should the work cease, whilst I leave it, and come down to you?"

Elder Uchtdorf's comment was that we all need to approach our faith (and I would assume our lives) with the attitude that we are in involved in a "great work".

I think this is the key for many who are dissatisfied in some way with church (as opposed to the gospel). If we can find our own "great work" (not just a "great work" given to or imposed upon us by others), I believe the issues we have with church culture will often disappear or at least become so trivial that they do not cause us resentment or frustration or unhappiness.

Sometimes this might mean we need to take a new look at an old effort so we now come to see that after all this is a "great work," it is not always required of us and might even be unhealthy to assume that it has to be something new or different from others. It can be joyful to add our efforts to others to work together on something great (Nehemiah certainly could not have done the work all by himself, the labourers were as essential to the great work as he was) as well as energerize others' efforts when we are able to contribute our unique qualities to the foundation they have already built up.

EXCELLENT!

[e=mc2]

gitxsanartist:

the church seems to instill this sense of inadeqacy in its members or almost a sense of fear or dread that we are not good enough.

Oh I don't get that impression much. I get the impression that the church doesn't think we are smart enough to really understand the scirptures sometimes though. Sometimes it seems the simple is overdone, and the in-depth look is ignored. But as for feeling inadequate? I haven't had that impression, at least not in my ward.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I suggest reading Eugene England's "Why the Church is as True as the Gospel." It is an interesting and, I believe, fruitful approach.

[mfbukowski]

My husband came home from Priesthood session and has been relating to me Elder Uchtdorf's (sp?) talk, he was very impressed by it.

It works well for this thread.

At one point he discussed the prophet Nehemiah and his response to his enemies while he was supervising the rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem: Neh t " 3 And I sent messengers unto them, saying, I am doing a great work, so that I cannot come down: why should the work cease, whilst I leave it, and come down to you?"

Elder Uchtdorf's comment was that we all need to approach our faith (and I would assume our lives) with the attitude that we are in involved in a "great work".

I think this is the key for many who are dissatisfied in some way with church (as opposed to the gospel). If we can find our own "great work" (not just a "great work" given to or imposed upon us by others), I believe the issues we have with church culture will often disappear or at least become so trivial that they do not cause us resentment or frustration or unhappiness.

Sometimes this might mean we need to take a new look at an old effort so we now come to see that after all this is a "great work," it is not always required of us and might even be unhealthy to assume that it has to be something new or different from others. It can be joyful to add our efforts to others to work together on something great (Nehemiah certainly could not have done the work all by himself, the labourers were as essential to the great work as he was) as well as energerize others' efforts when we are able to contribute our unique qualities to the foundation they have already built up.

I was thinking about this thread during that talk. I was also thinking that all the time we all spend here is a "distraction". Are we all addicts wasting time that could be spent doing better things?

[Calm]

It's not about the money. It's about service. It's about learning. It's about serving God with ALL of your heart, might, mind, and strength.

It's also about delegation. Some members do need to learn how to do it better. In most wards there should be enough people to cover the needs of the community well without individuals suffering burnout. This may be more difficult in branches, but in that case the leaders should work to accomodate the unique circumstances rather than trying to fit the branch into a ward mold. I've seen this done very well and not so good, but in both cases lots of individual learning can take place. It's remarkable how much more people can learn by actually hands on effort rather than being handed the material or given step by step instructions by professionals. Yes, it may save time and effort and in certain cases (such as medical ones) I am all for going the professional route, but when we are talking about building an eternal individual than I think it's well worth the investment of patience and even discomfort or even suffering to allow people to find their own path in their own time and way. I have seen too often the results of allowing people to rely on to long in their lives crutches, whether spiritual, physical, financial or emotional. When it's finally taken away, they just aren't prepared to stand on their own.

OTOH, if you've been using all of your heart, might, mind and strength, it is the rare event that sets you on your posterior for very long, if at all.

[Calm]

I was thinking about this thread during that talk. I was also thinking that all the time we all spend here is a "distraction". Are we all addicts wasting time that could be spent doing better things?

For some of us, it undoubtly is. I find it often helps me focus on what is important in my life when I see the positive comments as others and the negative ones as well.

And having something to think about while I go about the more mundane things can be fun as well.

I do tend to get a lot more of the mundane stuff done when I am off the board completely, I aim for a happy medium.

[Mudcat]

I was thinking about this thread during that talk. I was also thinking that all the time we all spend here is a "distraction". Are we all addicts wasting time that could be spent doing better things?

Hi Bukowski.

Emphasis mine. I didn't used to feel like an addict. But ... after selling the required 50 subscriptions to MADB and waiting months and months for my "Dynamic Superwind Bike" ... I am wondering if I got gypped or if the flyer they sent me about the bike shortage is true.

[William Schryver]

gitxsanartist:

I've noticed that the church seems to instill this sense of inadeqacy in its members or almost a sense of fear or dread that we are not good enough. I haven't yet placed my finger on where it comes from exactly but it is there. I've noticed personally that I miss church for a month and then I am afraid to come back because I am afraid the members in my ward will look at me as "inactive".

"The church seems to instill this sense of inadequacy in its members ..." ????!!!!!

In my estimation, this is one of the classic cop outs employed by the "I'm almost out the door but haven't quite found the wherewithal to follow through with it yet" crowd. Not only that, but in my experience, this is an absolute delusion with no basis in "things as they really are." Indeed, in the wards to which I've belonged, whenever someone who has been a little "inactive" comes through the door on Sunday, the most common reaction from fellow ward members has been a genuine expression of joy that so-and-so has chosen to be with us again today, followed by sincere demonstrations of welcome, love, and concern.

I would say that your fears, as expressed above, are entirely a reflection of your own sense of shortcoming and guilt than they are a reflection on the members of your ward as being uncaring and insensitive. For heaven's sake, give people a chance to love you and show you they care! You might be surprised how many of them are genuinely willing to do just that. How sad that you insist on going through life with such a cynical outlook.

[mfbukowski]

Hi Bukowski.

Emphasis mine. I didn't used to feel like an addict. But ... after selling the required 50 subscriptions to MADB and waiting months and months for my "Dynamic Superwind Bike" ... I am wondering if I got gypped or if the flyer they sent me about the bike shortage is true.

You didn't get yours? You will- the first one is free... but you know with that shortage, they get pretty expensive after a while....

[e=mc2]

I suggest reading Eugene England's "Why the Church is as True as the Gospel." It is an interesting and, I believe, fruitful approach.

I read that book years ago, several times in one year. Yes, it was that profound! I shall have to dust it off and re-read it. I remember it was pretty doggone terrific, truly one of his better ones! I remember it said something about putting up with all you knuckle-heads I hang out with at church....

[Sevenbak]

Here's my encounter with anti-Mormons today.

I went to the Priesthood Session. The antis were there as usual with

their banners and beards, screaming at us all that we were going to hell.

Afterwards, I was with my brother, waiting for someone to bring the car, and were sitting close to them. They tried to engage us, but we just smiled and nodded.

To make a long story short, as they left, crossing the street, my brother and I went to where they were standing and sang a couple rousing verses of "High on a Mountain Top", to clear the air and invite the spirit to return.

If it didn't do anyone else any good, it did us good!

[Mortal Man]

I find that I pretty much get out of church what I put into it.

Ask not what your church can do for you, ask what you can do for your church.

[why me]

I was thinking about this thread during that talk. I was also thinking that all the time we all spend here is a "distraction". Are we all addicts wasting time that could be spent doing better things?

As you know from your experiences on the catholic board, it can be a waste of time and energy. However, I never think that my posts there are a waste of time. Rather, I know that the antimormon posters on that board will never change their handle. But I also try to write for the catholic lurkers. They need to see a balanced portrait of the lds church. Likewise, here. I know that when I was lurking during my own crisis I found the posts on the FAIR discussion board a great help. I am sure that there have been many lds lurkers on this board and catholic lurkers on the catholic board reading the posts and making their own conclusions about the knowledge that they are reading. In short, I don't think that it is a waste of time.

[Deborah]

I've noticed that the church seems to instill this sense of inadeqacy in its members or almost a sense of fear or dread that we are not good enough. I haven't yet placed my finger on where it comes from exactly but it is there. I've noticed personally that I miss church for a month and then I am afraid to come back because I am afraid the members in my ward will look at me as "inactive".

Whoa! I didn't intend to say that the church instills a sense of inadequacy. I thought I was clear in pointing out we do that to ourselves. Yes there are expectations that one doesn't find in other churches but the Lord has also given instruction to not run faster than we are able and often we need to ask for help either from the Lord or our leaders if we are feeling inadequate. I've never been one to blame anyone but myself for my shortcomings and if someone is looking outside himself to blame he probably needs to figure out why he is thinking this and work on himself to remedy the situation.

If you are having difficulty now handling more than what you have at home you shouldn't feel guilty. We've all gone through times of stress. I've gone through periods where I've had to be released from all responsibilities for awhile. I didn't feel guilty at all. I just enjoyed going to church and not worried about having to teach or do any other assignment. I agree with what has been previously said that we sometimes interpret what we think others feel about us by our own fears and guilt. Believe me most people are more worried about whether they look ok today or whether Tommy will sit quietly in sacrament instead of screaming out loud like he usually does.

[Aquilifer]

I was also thinking that all the time we all spend here is a "distraction". Are we all addicts wasting time that could be spent doing better things?

"I am doing a great work and cannot come down."

Yeah, maybe I should think about getting back that that great work. This place is for a good read or a tustle, but after too much time it's a bit like that malfunctioning green light.

[Garden Girl]

What is with all this whining about how boring Church is? How people don't feel "good enough"? How Church is viewed as oppressive or burdensome?

Oh brother... There must be something really wrong with me... I actually enjoy going to Church ... and... I actually don't mind the 3 hours on Sunday, and 2 on Wednesday. I actually find joy and value in each of the hours... Sacrament Mtg., Sunday School (great GD teacher), and RS. I love associating with my brothers and sisters, with all our flaws. Particularly the occasional speaker or teacher who may not be as dynamic as others.

I've read this entire thread, and there have been many valuable comments and insights. But the main thing I believe is that after having been inactive for many years, and then returning, I know that I will get out of Church meetings or callings what I put into them. This is the Lord's work and I love the gospel and have gratitude always that I had the good sense to turn back from inactivity. I no longer feel the emptiness but rejoice in becoming part of the Lord's church again, of feeling the fresh, cool, sweetness fill my soul.

And as for you, Consig, I feel like I've just been slapped across the face by someone I trusted. To have you tell us that you hate... that's hate... going to Church. That you do so out of a "sense of duty, and duty only." If that's the way you feel, Consig, that's the way you feel. But I feel a sadness.

Garden Girl

[Bond...James Bond]

delete

[beastie]

And as for you, Consig, I feel like I've just been slapped across the face by someone I trusted. To have you tell us that you hate... that's hate... going to Church. That you do so out of a "sense of duty, and duty only." If that's the way you feel, Consig, that's the way you feel. But I feel a sadness.

Why would that make you feel personally slapped across the face by someone you trusted?