My Wife's Encounter with some Lovely Ex-Mormons

[Calm]

Jeff,

Seems Consig has chosen to take the high road in regards to your comment for whatever reason. I suppose its because he's cool and IMO has a heart for Christ.

Your judgmental and classless appraisal of his wife and himself certainly doesn't diminish my opinion of the character of either one of them in my eyes. Though it does significantly lower my opinion of yours.

I don't expect you to be concerned about my opinions.

However, I felt compelled to say something.

Consig actually reminds me a lot of my dad when it comes to his teaching. While he likes it when people express gratitude for a good lesson, it is for a variety of other reasons that he takes the approach (similar to Consig's in many ways) that he does: 1) he's found something of value that's new to him and wants to share it with others, 2) he enjoys seeing what others think, in part because it informs his own thoughts but also because people and how they think interests him, 3) he finds it easier to connect with others as a teacher over new things than with things they are familiar with and may tone out, so he throws in a few new and possibly spicy items among the older material as attention getters (nothing is wrong with that either, even the manuals promote using attention-getters), and 4) sometimes people are more open when discussing in new ways than they are in old as there are less 'expected' answers in those conditions. I've gotten the impression over the years that he believes the best way to get a person to think is to add some squirmy factor, to push buttons though gently (at least in church, lol); this is not to manipulate or to shock, but to energize them, people tend to talk and think more about things that matter to them and are being challenged as opposed to things that they are indifferent to.

I think there are other ways besides discomfort/squirminess to get this last effect, but that comes naturally to him.

[benji1517]

I attend a church that my elderly mom finds boring. The music is from a 200 year old hymnal and half of it is 500 years old. There is no day care so the pews are packed with 12-member families and crying babies. The liturgy is routine and and sober. But I absolutely love it because the preacher hammers the gospel every lord's day, and feeds us the the word of God.

[LeSellers]

Okay, I'm going to open up here with everybody.

...

[My wife] hates going to the Mormon Church, where basically nobody seems happy to be there, and everybody seems to be laboring under a huge burden. And she knows for sure that she is not happy there.

I am truly sorry about your situation and your wife's. I cannot relate: for me, Disneyland not withstanding, church is the happiest place on Earth (our home and the temple are the only possible contenders). I can recall only a handful of times in fifty years or more that I did not actively want to go to church.

I see few people who are unhappy, and so many who are. Children (with rare exception) love coming to Primary, and even though Sacrament Meeting is long and (especially for them) hard to understand, they love Sharing Time and class. There are exceptions, as I noted, but by and large, it's a joyful time. This has been true for me in a dozen wards and branches on two continents, in six countries. Adults (particularly those without children) can be relaxed and just listen (if they ignore the noise of the little ones).

Serving is a joy. I have learned by standing on the shoulders of others, and returning that to others is more than mere payback (or forward). It's fun. Even when there is a lot of stress in the calling, there is pleasure and peace in fulfilling it.

Add: I believe one reason I love going to church as much as I do is that my Jacquie and I have "adopted" a single sister and her two children. Christine is hard-pressed to handle them and still enjoy the meeting, so taking Emily and Gabriel for an hour is good for here and great for us. We both miss them when they do not get to Sacrament Meeting. (Names changed to protect the guilty.)

For the most part, I agree with Lincoln in this: a man is about as happy as he chooses to be.

You know what you experience better than I, so I will not say that you are wrong. I just cannot comprehend how it could be.

Lehi

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

Seems Consig has chosen to take the high road in regards to your comment for whatever reason. I suppose its because he's cool and IMO has a heart for Christ.

Your judgmental and classless appraisal of his wife and himself certainly doesn't diminish my opinion of the character of either one of them in my eyes. Though it does significantly lower my opinion of yours.

I don't expect you to be concerned about my opinions.

However, I felt compelled to say something.

Please spare me the blandishments. Cheerleaders shouldn't get on the field with the players.

I haven't heard anything mitigating the idea that they or she somehow wants to be entertained. The rather classless attack on an entire ward that no one wants to be there says a great deal more about person saying it than the idea that an entire ward doesn't want to be in church.

You are right about my concern for your opinions, unless of course you actually had something to add.

[Alf O'Mega]

What you fail to appreciate is the profound difference that there is between a disbeliever of your stripe and one like my much-admired friend Alf O'Mega.

Okay, this is getting a little embarrassing, Will. If you keep it up, I'll be forced to refer to you as my Benevolent Stalker.

Despite your frequent and much-labored protestations to the contrary, you are perceived as an active opponent of the restored gospel, its founding prophet, its current leadership and direction, and almost everything it stands for.

I don't see such a profound difference between John and me. I am viewed by most people around here (your irrationally contrarian opinion notwithstanding) as a bona fide opponent as well, to be treated with the same wariness as any other critic. On the other hand, John has always struck me as a deeply fair-minded person who happens not to believe the Church's truth claims.

[Jeff K.]

So says the man who is content to sit back and complain about consiglieri and his wife.

Yes, I am analyzing a major blind spot they seem to have about themselves.

[Jeff K.]

It is certainly possible that you have me pegged dead on.

My wife, on the other hand, is a kind and sensitive soul, generous to a fault, and the kind of person that folks feel lucky to have as a friend.

Kind of like the "older couple" who decided to leave the Church.

I hope I would not be going too far to suggest that the attitude you have expressed is part of the problem rather than the solution.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Then you need to explain what your wife wants, not simply what she doesn't want. If she cannot articulate it, then perhaps she isn't sure what she does or doesn't like herself.

[consiglieri]

Yes, I am analyzing a major blind spot they seem to have about themselves.

You do realize that I am just sharing feelings and not attacking you personally?

[BlueDreams]

Hi consig.

I don't know how applicable this is to your problem...but I thought I'd share.

For a while I went to a ward that half of the people weren't supposed to be in....I'm not joking, it was litterally half the ward. It was one of those special wards that are bound by boundaries perse, but to represent a certain ethnic group (keeping this general). The ward instead consisted of 33 nations and racial/ethnic backgrounds (someone had counted once). It's a singles ward that was just phenomenal, insomuch that other singles wards believed we were actually recruiting members to join. We weren't....they would come once and simply stay after one meeting...there was even one guy that went to six hours of church, just so he could attend. It took me two to do the same. Most of the people who went would agree with this statement: It felt like we were getting a little preface to Zion....you could sit there and think, this is what zion will look like and feel like. Friends everywhere, people from all backgrounds speaking of their experience and learning from each other, the spirit tangibly there every week, a relief society that felt like a true sisterhood. And then the ward was corrected and, unless you were apart of the actual ethnic group it was meant for, we were expected to leave. That was the most depressing sunday ever. The bishop was in tears, friends were hugging and crying, we sang God Be With You....I mean extremely depressing.

It took me a week to go to my singles ward by geography and the first meeting I litterally spent most of it praying that I not close my heart, that I not become bitter that I was stuck here, that I learn to love this ward, even a little bit...I left class at one point to pray for this. It did not help that that first day was testimony meeting and I sat and listened to possibly one of the most obliviously insulting testimonies from a girl who I still can't bring myself to associate with. It was just painful and I can understand dreading Sunday because I'm the same way at times. I'm a very independent person...it even reflects in my PB....it's intrinsic to my nature. To sit through it when I wanted to be back in my ward was hard for months. It's still hard because the comparison is always there if I pull it out. If they somehow miraculously changed their mind and a ward like unto my old one was created, I would leave this ward in a heartbeat.

I don't know the circumstances for your wife. I'm sure they're difficult and they are not mine. But I have found some happiness in the place that I'm at. In part because I've also found outlets. I still attend my ward, but also take part in activities that are with different people that are also spiritual. Another part is my calling, I love teaching and that helps....though this too can be frustrating if I stop too long to compare some people in my class compared to the old one I was in. And it's not perfect either. I'm still working on doing Visiting teaching....I don't attent FHE, largely because I just don't like it (the "mom" is that person I mentioned earlier from testimony meeting). But there are bright sides besides my calling.....largely because I decided to focus on those than what I'm missing. Not to say it isn't boring at times. If it is, I pull out my scriptures or journal to keep me occupied or inject myself into conversation. As I was giving a lesson this last week, I realized this has been a lesson for me and pride. In some parts I've done well, in other parts I haven't.

Again I don't know what it's like for you two. But this is my little bit of advice. Ignore the social (I find that for my independent soul, it's hardly ever done me good to let society rule at the end of the day)and do what is best for your family and what is best with God. I knew, even though it hurt, that I needed to go to this ward even if I didn't want to....so I did and it's worked in odd ways. If it's a way that is unexpected, even for yourself, simply do it.

With luv,

BD

[Manny]

I skipped two pages of material, so if I'm repeating something that has been said before, I'm sorry.

Your wife sounds a bit like me. Doctrinally, I really appreciate the Church, but Sundays are usually pretty drab. Sacrament is usually crappy (besides taking the sacrament), and I despise Sunday School (no offense...you're a GD teacher, right?). Recently my wife was called to be in the primary presidency, so she is busy during the 2nd and 3rd hours. So, my 8-month old and I have gone on "field trips" home recently. However, the last two weeks I felt like I should give classes a try, and I've actually enjoyed them some. But, if I'd not been allowed to take my "break" I think I would never have valued the services.

Having a lay clergy really has it's drawbacks when it comes to instruction. When you add lack of charisma and entusiasm to the overstressed, overworked, underpaid folks who run the show, it is a recipe for boredom.

Further, being independently minded is inconsistent with American Mormon sub-culture.

I wish her the best.

[zerinus]

I, too, find Church interminable, but nevertheless religiously attend the three-hour block out of a sense of duty, and only duty, . . .

This is the most important thing you have said. I highly commend you for that. I think you are a great guy.

With regard to the problems you are experiencing, I donâ??t want to sound like a pundit, but I would like to make some suggestions which you might find helpful. I think that in order for you to be able to enjoy your Church life, you need to have a certain kind of spiritual experience. It is hard to describe or explain it; but it is perhaps best explained in this verse in the Book of Moses:

Moses 6

:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and

enjoy the words of eternal life in this world,

and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory.

Notice it says that Adam needed to have a certain kind of spiritual experience in order to be able to enjoy the â??words of eternal lifeâ?. By the â??words of eternal lifeâ? I understand to mean primarily the scriptures; but I think that it means more than that. I think it includes the sermons and talks and gospel lessons that one hears in the Church. I think that it includes even the conversations one has with church members. Church members, unless they are complete transgressors, have the Holy Ghost with them, and their conversations are edifying and uplifting to each other. Lapses do occur; but they are the exceptions rather than the rule. But in order for Adam (which means all of us) to be able to â??enjoyâ? that, he needed to have a certain kind of spiritual experience, or awakening, which the scriptures describe as being â??born againâ?. Further down the same chapter, this event is described for Adam in these words:

65 And thus he [Adam] was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and

became quickened in the inner man

.

To be â??quickenedâ? means to â??come aliveâ? or be â??awakenedâ?. The â??inner manâ? means his spirit, or spiritually. To be â??quickened in the inner manâ? means to come alive spiritually. You know how when your computer is in â??sleepâ? mode it does not register anything; but when you press a certain button it springs to life and becomes responsive. People are like that spiritually. They are in sleep mode. They donâ??t register spiritual things. Only the Lord can â??wakeâ? them out of it, and make them responsive to spiritual things. Alma explains this experience in these words:

Alma 5

:

14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this

mighty change in your hearts?

15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? . . .

That is the spiritual experience one needs to have in order to be able to â??enjoyâ? his experiences in the Church. To â??enjoyâ? is the opposite of being bored! It can only come from the Lord. You have to seek it through fasting, prayer and faith, and with the help of your priesthood leaders. The key to the solution of this problem is you. Once you have resolved it for yourself first, than you can also help your wife.

My recommendation is that you go and have a word with your priesthood leaders, either the bishop or the stake president, whichever you feel closer to. Then explain to him all the details. Tell him everything you have told us, and ask for his adviceâ??and follow it. Also ask him to give you a priesthood blessing. Do some fasting and praying beforehand, and ask him to give you a blessing. Then take it from there. This is my suggestion. If you feel comfortable in following it, that is what I recommend you to do.

zerinus

[Jeff K.]

You do realize that I am just sharing feelings and not attacking you personally?

Do you realize that I am not attacking but looking at what the cause is. Analyzing it myself. If you were to say I had a blind spot I would not consider that an attack. I would want to know what your view of it is.

[Sleeper Cell]

Yes, I am analyzing a major blind spot they seem to have about themselves.

Perhaps their blind spot is caused by a mote in the eye.

[Jeff K.]

It might be. Its hard to say why his wife has a testimony in the church and one presumes then the many additional issues that go along with such a testimony (ie service of man, strengthening brethern and sisters, love of Lord in service, the reasons for sacrament, sharing of testimonies) and yet feels that she is not being taken care of in church. Do those things not exist in her ward, an entire ward where no one wants to be? Wow....

It would have to be a pretty big mote to have so many "bad" members in it.

[Mudcat]

Please spare me the blandishments.

Jeff,

It wasn't meant as a blandishment Jeff, sorry you misunderstood. I wasn't trying to coax or cajole you, I was merely letting you know that your statements diminished my view of you. I don't think it was an insult either, just a fact.

Cheerleaders shouldn't get on the field with the players.

In this instance, I don't mind being called a "Cheerleader". In fact, in this instance, I suppose I am a Cheerleader. Consiglieri seems to be a person of strong conviction and a good heart. I don't always agree with him, but I give him my respect because I believe he deserves it.

I suppose you meant the term Cheerleader as some sort of barb. That is fine. I didn't receive it as such, so I suppose you will have to go back to the woodshed and come up with something better.... if that is your intent.

I haven't heard anything mitigating the idea that they or she somehow wants to be entertained.

I haven't either, other than your statements. So does that mean you agree that you were wrong in your summation of their quest for entertainment?

The rather classless attack on an entire ward that no one wants to be there says a great deal more about person saying it than the idea that an entire ward doesn't want to be in church.

I certainly don't know what statement in specific you are referring to, but do you belong to that ward? Do you know anyone who does, other than Consig? Do you even know where that ward is? Have you spent any amount of time there? What special qualification allows you to not take his statement at face value?

You are right about my concern for your opinions, unless of course you actually had something to add.

Actually I was wrong Jeff. Thanks for the response. That, at least, speaks well of you.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[John Williams]

Okay, this is getting a little embarrassing, Will. If you keep it up, I'll be forced to refer to you as my Benevolent Stalker.

I don't see such a profound difference between John and me. I am viewed by most people around here (your irrationally contrarian opinion notwithstanding) as a bona fide opponent as well, to be treated with the same wariness as any other critic. On the other hand, John has always struck me as a deeply fair-minded person who happens not to believe the Church's truth claims.

Now I'm feeling a little embarrassed. I don't know how fair-minded I am, and I would count myself as a critic of the church, though not necessarily an opponent. Obviously, other people (not just Will) have reached different conclusions. If I were a believer, I would treat me with wariness, too.

[Bond...James Bond]

On Sunday go where you want to go and let her go where she wants to go. Either of you of course can forgo that choice and watch cartoons instead. Meet afterwards for a sandwich and afternoon napping. That's my advice. Don't forget the napping. It's essential.

[Jeff K.]

wasn't meant as a blandishment Jeff, sorry you misunderstood. I wasn't trying to coax or cajole you, I was merely letting you know that your statements diminished my view of you. I don't think it was an insult either, just a fact.

Truly as I said, and I think you know, it isn't a big thing. Your opinion that is.

QUOTE

Cheerleaders shouldn't get on the field with the players.

In this instance, I don't mind being called a "Cheerleader". In fact, in this instance, I suppose I am a Cheerleader. Consiglieri seems to be a person of strong conviction and a good heart. I don't always agree with him, but I give him my respect because I believe he deserves it.

I suppose you meant the term Cheerleader as some sort of barb. That is fine. I didn't receive it as such, so I suppose you will have to go back to the woodshed and come up with something better.... if that is your intent.

Chuckle, well he certainly has strong convictions about himself, and of course the need to entertain his wife so that her testimony can be shared with others around her. I of course don't share that conviction with him.

I meant the term cheerleader as (to paraphrase you) an observation. Plenty of cheerleaders out there. They rah rah, but don't add much to the game, at least not in substance.

QUOTE

I haven't heard anything mitigating the idea that they or she somehow wants to be entertained.

I haven't either, other than your statements. So does that mean you agree that you were wrong in your summation of their quest for entertainment?

No, I think my summation is fairly accurate. No other reason seems apparent from our loquacious consigliari.

QUOTE

The rather classless attack on an entire ward that no one wants to be there says a great deal more about person saying it than the idea that an entire ward doesn't want to be in church.

I certainly don't know what statement in specific you are referring to, but do you belong to that ward? Do you know anyone who does, other than Consig? Do you even know where that ward is? Have you spent any amount of time there? What special qualification allows you to not take his statement at face value?

Well to answer your query.

My wife said she agreed with them; that she also hates going to the Mormon Church, where basically nobody seems happy to be there, and everybody seems to be laboring under a huge burden. And she knows for sure that she is not happy there.

Any group of people of say 300+ people from, one assumes 300+ separate families, with 300+ life distinct life experiences, and they are all dour faced and unhappy at being in church but come every Sunday. I sometimes play the odds in business when things are questionable, liklihoods and outcomes. I find the statement telling, more from its author than a characteristic from the ward. But feel free to accept everything on faith, I reserve such things for important matters.

Keep the faith in the self aggrandized masses. I tend to be more cautious.

[Glenn101]

In my opinion there are really only two issues for me, Consig, his wife, and everyone else.

1. Is the church true? If not, end of story.

2. Is what I am currently doing, thinking, feeling, etc. aiding or detracting from my progression?

I have been acquainted with many people over the years, some with high i.q.'s and great learning who became inactive due to boredom with church meetings. I have known others with similar intellectual prowess and learning who joyously attend meetings and derive great satisfaction from doing so.

I'll just leave it at that.

Glenn

[mpschmitt]

....

(There is more to this story, but I think I will leave it there for now and see if there is any interest, because nothing kills a thread like an overly long OP.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I have a few thoughts that seem to conflict with one another, but perhaps there's a thread that will tie them together:

1. The first (hence the number one in front of it) is "Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy". Nevertheless this life is also a time probation, of preparation to meet God. It was not intended to be easy and free of burdens. "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world". Burdens are sometimes precisely the mechanism the Lord uses to stretch our souls to greater heights. Think of the wording of the initiatory. My advice to you would be to start by getting on your knees with your wife (and children where applicable) and start a fast during this conference weekend where you ask the Lord to show you how to find the joy in your life despite your burdens by the end of Conference. It is amazing how readily he often answers those prayers.

2. The second thought (hence the number 2) I have is, "Yeah. Sometimes Sunday feels so busy that I don't have time to develop my relationship with God or my family." In those moments when I'm feeling like that, I ask myself, "Who am I really trying to please?" is it God? or is it man. If the latter, perhaps a priority adjustment is in order. There is only one Individual's opinion in the universe that really counts and He doesn't live here. Our first priority should be the care and nurture of our families, and a willingness to trust the Spirit in the making of our schedules. If the Spirit whispers to me that I need to go get some home teaching done after Church, I go do that. But sometimes the Lord says, "You're wife needs you at home today. Go be with her and strengthen her." Our highest and holiest calling in life is that of father/mother and husband/wife (see Ephesians 5) What does it profit a man if he saves the whole Church and loses his family? When I ask the Spirit to guide me in my scheduling choices, things slide into much better balance and yes, many times the Lord sends me home rather than keeping me out doing calling related work.

3. The third thought (hence the... oh you get it) I had is that our experience of the Sabbath day depends in a large part on the spirit with which we approach it. If we approach it worshipfully and seeking the Lord, it will have much more impact. When we set aside the Sabbath day as a holy day for the Lord. When we consecrate it unto him (every hour of it) and use it to nourish our souls and the souls of our loved ones, we are refreshed and prepared. When we come to the altar with a determination to worship and commune with God, we will be filled. When our minds are so much upon other things that that worship gets crowded out, we lose out, and so does our ward. Be an agent for change! Bring worship back to the Sabbath . Consider the counsel of the Lord in D+C 59:

5 Wherefore, I give unto them a commandment, saying thus: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy might, mind, and strength; and in the name of Jesus Christ thou shalt serve him.

6 Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.

7 Thou shalt thank the Lord thy God in all things.

8 Thou shalt offer a sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in righteousness, even that of a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day;

10 For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High;

11 Nevertheless thy avows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times;

12 But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.

13 And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full.

14 Verily, this is fasting and prayer, or in other words, rejoicing and prayer.

15 And inasmuch as ye do these things with thanksgiving, with cheerful hearts and countenances, not with much laughter, for this is sin, but with a glad heart and a cheerful countenance—

16 Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth;

17 Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards;

18 Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;

19 Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.

20 And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion.

21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

22 Behold, this is according to the law and the prophets; wherefore, trouble me no more concerning this matter.

23 But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come.

24 I, the Lord, have spoken it, and the Spirit beareth record. Amen.

Last thought: If you feel the Lord is distant from you and the thoughts and intents of your heart, ask yourself: Who moved?

[LDSMusic483]

Jeff K.

I find your responses rather presumptious. You seem to know Consig and his wife better than themselves. Honestly that is impressive considering you have been a member of this site for a little over three months.

You "observe" that you think Consiglieri teaches the way he does to be impressive. I have had some opportunities to discourse and debate with him on this site since joining not so long ago, and I get quite the other opinion from him. In fact, I've sometimes found it rather difficult to get him to actually do more than lay out specific facts and give his specific impressions! What I have gathered from Consig is that he teaches in a way that leaves individuals wanting to search for a greater understanding. Might that mean he comes off as some all knowledgeable individual who is higher than many? Possibly, but I don't think that is his intent. I think rather it is to try to inspire individuals to recognize important questions that have answers, and to try to have them to want to learn more. Presentation hardly must mimick intent. Another note on this. I have sometimes felt that Sunday Schools are horribly boring, and that I could do better to just study on my own then listen to drab teachings. Joseph Smith had a similar problem when he was younger and felt the same way. The reason? Because the teachers taught without the spirit. I'm not saying that all teachers are like that, but I couldn't help thinking about that when at the beginning of this year we had the lesson on the first vision and I could have just about given the same primary lesson the teacher was going to give us word for word before they did. It left me feeling rather depressed that in this class where we are supposed to discuss and grow and gain greater understanding that so little effort seemed to have gone into the lesson.

You seem (and I'm just making an observation of something you appear to have a blind spot of) to like to assign the worst of motives and desires to Consig in this wife and yet profess that you know your position as a teacher. Honestly, you have an extremely pathetic idea of what a teacher should be. Nothing of your tone on this thread has bespoken a sense of Christlike love, which a true teacher would have especially for a fellow brother who finds some issues that have risen within his family. Do you honestly think his wife expects church to entertain her? There are wards that can seem unwelcome. My family is currently in one. I myself went about 2 months without an individual in my quorum so much as saying a word to me, until I sneezed once in class and got a "bless you." Some people are introverts, and it is possible to get a ward full of them, or only groups of people where people get a long well.

You also felt it necessary to call Mudcat a cheerleader. I take exception to that. I thought perhaps that you meant that term for him because he is not a member and has much of an outsiders opinion. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and I was wrong. You called him a cheerleader because he doesn't "add much to the game, at least not in substance." The hypocrisy of your statement is astounding. If a pole were taken on this site, I feel secure in assuring you that Mudcat would win by a landslide margin against you in who has offered more to the game by way of substance.

Simply put, you seem to find that which affects you most in those you criticize. You think Consiglieri looks for self-agrandizement, yet that is what you seek by making non-sensical statements from the little experience from your dealings with him. You claim his wife is seeking entertainment, yet I can only suppose that this is your reason for coming here, acting the fool by trying to diminish a families already difficult trial for your own amusement. And you throw out your opinion of Mudcats not adding any substance to the game when all you have achieved in doing is far from adding substance, you have removed it and prohibited a sense of caring love through your trite comments.

I'm sure, as you have already alluded to for Mudcat, that you could not care less about what I have said and you probably consider me along the same lines of not contributing anything substantial. Quite frankly, I don't care. I would still invite you to excuse yourself from this discussion as you have only succeeded at being a distractor and have added nothing of merit to the discussion.

[Stargazer]

Have I often found the three-hour block fairly long? Yep. And I'm now a bishop. I've already been there for at least a couple of hours before the block, and I'm typically there for several hours after the block. But guess what. I feel energized by serving as a bishop. Even after very long days and very late nights, I feel that I've done something good. I've accomplished something, helped somebody. I could do it for hours more. It's much better than just sitting there, grousing, has ever been for me.

I spent 7 years as Ward Clerk, and was simultaneously relieved and horrified to finally be released. I loved that calling, and the involvement, and the work. I could have done it the rest of my life, I think. DCP, you finally gave me a word for what I felt in that calling: energized.

Thanks.

[Stargazer]

I also am usually very bored at church. I enjoyed it when I was in a position of leadership, when people depended on me to get things done. Since I was released I find Church to be quite boring. I probably am not as bored as your wife is though.

Nevertheless, I go. I believe it is true and I need to take the sacrament. I try to make Church more interesting by bringing unfamiliar books or non-LDS standard issue scriptures with me. For example, last Sunday instead of bringing my regular BoM, I brought Donald Parry's "The Book of Mormon According to Parallelistic Patterns". I enjoy the weird looks, and the opportunity to share something neat with the members. Sometimes I will bring a NIV or some other translation just for kicks. I try to find ways to spice it up.

I love Sacrament Meeting, especially Fast & Testimony meeting -- and I even love High Council sundays (usually). I find Sunday School and Priesthood to be supremely boring. Since we live just a few blocks away from church, I've been coming home nearly every Sunday after Sacrament meeting. My wife teaches in Primary so I have to go pick her up after the block. Do you know what I do when I come home after Sacrament? I log on HERE and read what all you guys are saying, and sometimes post, too.

This place can be addictive.

[Joseph Antley]

I love Sacrament Meeting, especially Fast & Testimony meeting -- and I even love High Council sundays (usually). I find Sunday School and Priesthood to be supremely boring. Since we live just a few blocks away from church, I've been coming home nearly every Sunday after Sacrament meeting. My wife teaches in Primary so I have to go pick her up after the block. Do you know what I do when I come home after Sacrament? I log on HERE and read what all you guys are saying, and sometimes post, too.

This place can be addictive.

I find Sunday School and Priesthood much less boring since you have the opportunity to actually interact. Sacrament meeting is sometimes a little...uninteresting. And by that I mean the talks.

[Abulafia]

Hi Consiglieri,

Don't have much to add to the thread, as can't relate much nowadays, but have enjoyed reading through it.

My thoughts are that I would like to know what your wife means when she says (or you suggest) that she knows that the church is true.

What does that actually mean to her specifically?

From the other side of the fence, with a non-member (but absolultely wonderful, honourable, honest, hard-working, kind) husband, non-member son (who also happens to be one of the most wonderful parts of my life) and me totally inactive and right now pretty much a non-believer in the prophethood of Joseph and in the exclusive authority claimed by the LDS, I'll tell you the things I miss. (rightly or wrongly)

1) The deep friendship and commeraderie (sp?) I felt with a few very close friends (facebook helps strangely enough, since they have mostly moved 1000's miles away)

2) The Sense of Community (though this definitely has advantages and disadvantages)

3) A strong faith framework (which again has advantages and disadvantages...I've come to find much comfort in not knowing the answers than in thinking that I do know them)

I don't miss the 3 hour blocks, or my callings (in primary, which was a busman's holiday for me anyway!) but that is because as someone who doesn't believe, it would have been hypocritical to continue and my lovely bishop understood this. As an active member, I think one of the most deeply profound experiences I had, was gazing out over some vista at Zions National Park, and feeling that I was truly 'in' church right there and then. I never felt the same way, surrounded by bricks and mortar, man-made wooden seats and glass windows, but perhaps that is just me!

We do fill our Sundays nowadays with good music, family visits to my widowed mum and my husbands family, family trips to places of interest. There is so much to wonder at in the world that we find that we are never bored and we all feel that sense of wonderment at all the knowledge and interest that this world (and perhaps God) has to offer.

Occassionally we find ourselves popping into the local church, but find the repetition and some of the doctrine a little troubling. Though my husband can appreciate religion in terms of the sense of community it offers, he and I can't accept much of the doctrine or manner of worship (and my son says he feels out of place because he is an atheist!).

I disagree with all those who think that belonging to another faith is easy by the way. Church attendance is such a very small part of what I feel, anyway, our lives should be about, I find that it is vastly over-rated, particularly in the LDS church.

When Jesus of Nazareth said follow me, I'm not sure he meant...oh and that means you must attend church for 3 hours every Sunday. To keep the Sabbath Day holy meant different things to the early Jews than it does to us now, and Jesus seemed to have taken a very liberal approach to it, thus eating the sheaves of corn on the Sabbath, and healing the sick.

Surely also, as a Jew, when Jesus was walking the earth it was to the Synagogue that he went. (I have sat in the ruined one in Capernaum , which was quite an experience) He taught in the synagogue on their Sabbath as was custom. He also taught in the temple (which indicates that 1st century temple worship and practice wasn't quite the same as LDS practice). But I'm not sure the extent to which he agreed with or closely followed the Sabbath Day customs of the time, much to the disapproval of the more conservative pharisees and saducees with whom he had some association.

Again, I havn't worked it all out, but overall I don't feel our lives have lost anything for not being regular Sunday church goers.

Mary