My Wife's Encounter with some Lovely Ex-Mormons

[CQUIRK]

To counter such bordom at Church, we just stay for the sacrament and take off when its over, or sometimes not go to church every sunday.

Then again, it depends on who is giving the sermon, what's it about, and how they conduct the music, there's a variety in those things that range from exciting to crappy.

If you have a calling that's too much for you, simply be honest with your Bishop that you cannot do such a calling and he'll find somebody else. At the same time, you're not going to get in trouble if you slip up once or twice on your calling.

However I find these elderly couple completely full of it; I grew up in a Evangelical Church and was ALWAYS bored at their sunday services and uncomfortable in the youth classes, even if the pastor was a good speaker, I tried napping through the sermon, the only thing I looked forward to was the donuts they usually sold after the services.

[Jeff K.]

I suppose it is the same way I can see you in your ward dictating what other members are allowed to believe and if they don't how they are so much in the wrong, especially with political issues.

I understand that when I teach the point is to help people understand the concepts, not make myself seem important or knowledgeable. I don't dictate to members, I let them carry on most of the conversation. Consiglieri suffers from the "sage on the stage" syndrome. And we don't talk politics in church. So I guess you don't really have much to hang your hat on.

[John Williams]

And yet when he brings up his "teaching moments" here they are more than a little self aggrandizing. A kind of "why don't they understand me..." undertone. I can see them both sitting there wanting to be "entertained".

I dunno. I don't get that from consiglieri's posts. Some people's posts, on the other hand, seem to be more than a little smug and self-righteous with a "why can't you be as humble as I am" undertone.

[emeliza]

I understand that when I teach the point is to help people understand the concepts, not make myself seem important or knowledgeable. I don't dictate to members, I let them carry on most of the conversation. Consiglieri suffers from the "sage on the stage" syndrome. And we don't talk politics in church. So I guess you don't really have much to hang your hat on.

Glad to know somewhere you know how to shut your mouth a bit, however that being said, unless you have sat in on Consig's classes, I don't think you have the right to say how he teaches or how others respond to his lessons. In fact if you read his threads he always shares where people have asked questions. Do you want him to list out every single class participation and every single time he asks a question? That is not the point of his threads. The point is to tell us what he was getting at in his lesson.

[Jeff K.]

I dunno. I don't get that from consiglieri's posts. Some people's posts, on the other hand, seem to be more than a little smug and self-righteous with a "why can't you be as humble as I am" undertone.

Thats ok, keeping working on it.

[Jeff K.]

Glad to know somewhere you know how to shut your mouth a bit, however that being said, unless you have sat in on Consig's classes, I don't think you have the right to say how he teaches or how others respond to his lessons. In fact if you read his threads he always shares where people have asked questions. Do you want him to list out every single class participation and every single time he asks a question? That is not the point of his threads. The point is to tell us what he was getting at in his lesson.

I think I do have a right to say what I feel and see, just as you do. I see his posts and I see a great deal of "look how clever I am" or "look at this shocking thing that I can teach" what does it do really other than shock and magnify perception of him. I do read his threads carefully, I do not think him ignorant or false, just self aggrandizing.

Apparently his wife wants to be entertained too. After all if she were entertained she would like church more and it wouldn't be an issue now would it?

[emeliza]

Apparently his wife wants to be entertained too. After all if she were entertained she would like church more and it wouldn't be an issue now would it?

I don't think it is that apparent that lack of entertainment is his wife's issue. It might be more along the lines of feeling like she doesn't fit in.

[Brenda]

And I disagree that nobody seems happy. The saints in my ward and stake seem quite happy for the most part.

I agree with your disagreement. Maybe we all just see what we go expecting to see.

[Jeff K.]

I don't think it is that apparent that lack of entertainment is his wife's issue. It might be more along the lines of feeling like she doesn't fit in.

That feeling was not expressed. Usually the best way to fit in or be part of something is to do something to help, not sit back and complain about it.

[consiglieri]

That feeling was not expressed. Usually the best way to fit in or be part of something is to do something to help, not sit back and complain about it.

It is certainly possible that you have me pegged dead on.

My wife, on the other hand, is a kind and sensitive soul, generous to a fault, and the kind of person that folks feel lucky to have as a friend.

Kind of like the "older couple" who decided to leave the Church.

I hope I would not be going too far to suggest that the attitude you have expressed is part of the problem rather than the solution.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[John Williams]

That feeling was not expressed. Usually the best way to fit in or be part of something is to do something to help, not sit back and complain about it.

So says the man who is content to sit back and complain about consiglieri and his wife.

[Lachonius]

I believe there are times we go to Church to learn and be uplifted, but that more often than not, we are there to teach and uplift others. I agree with much of what has been said about the lack of uplifting which sometimes takes place in the Church on Sundays, much of which I would ascribe to those who rely on the arm of the flesh when teaching, rather than the Spirit; however, I also believe that there are many times when others need to see us there and doing our part. Part of fellowship is strengthening others, and when we realize we have been an instrument in lifting others in some way, it is a joyous thing.

There are many weeks when I could gain much more from staying home and studying the scriptures than attending meetings (in my mind), but it's important that my children see me doing what is right, and, I suppose, that members of the ward see me doing what is right, to encourage them as well. There are at least two or three brethren I look to on a weekly basis, appreciative of their love of the Gospel and their willingness to serve. It wouldn't crush my testimony if any of them were to leave, but knowing others are engaged in the good fight brings the resolve to press forward.

[Brenda]

I believe there are times we go to Church to learn and be uplifted, but that more often than not, we are there to teach and uplift others. I agree with much of what has been said about the lack of uplifting which sometimes takes place in the Church on Sundays, much of which I would ascribe to those who rely on the arm of the flesh when teaching, rather than the Spirit; however, I also believe that there are many times when others need to see us there and doing our part. Part of fellowship is strengthening others, and when we realize we have been an instrument in lifting others in some way, it is a joyous thing.

There are many weeks when I could gain much more from staying home and studying the scriptures than attending meetings (in my mind), but it's important that my children see me doing what is right, and, I suppose, that members of the ward see me doing what is right, to encourage them as well. There are at least two or three brethren I look to on a weekly basis, appreciative of their love of the Gospel and their willingness to serve. It wouldn't crush my testimony if any of them were to leave, but knowing others are engaged in the good fight brings the resolve to press forward.

I agree. I remember a man saying that throughout his kids' lives, he wanted them to always know that each Sunday their dad could be found at church. He taught his kids by EXAMPLE. That's a legacy.

I have a great (x4) grandfather who, though very sickly, traveled miles by wagon to regularly attend the St. George temple. I am one of those kids who was affected by forefathers doing the right thing. How can I excuse myself and stay home from church after what my ancestors sacrificed?

Sorry, I realize this isn't exactly the point of this thread. I just disagree with some of the advice given. The answer is found INside the Gospel, not OUTside.

[Calm]

That's been my experience, too. I like the kids in my singles ward. I even like the bad ones. A lot. It's surprising, but true.

One of my favourite callings was being the teacher of a primary class that was limited to one young boy who had issues of self-control (including violent behaviour). I felt grateful if I managed to get him to focus for five minutes on the lesson which was basically seeing what kind of discussion we could have about a gospel related picture.

He is now a healthy young man, active in the Church and may even be able to go on a mission in a couple of years. I don't know if I actually taught him anything, but I was able to help his family stay active in the gospel community during a hard time in their lives and even if I went home exhausted, I usually had something fun to share with my family that we could chuckle over until the next week (like the time I was silly enough to close my eyes while I said the prayer--we took turns since there was just the two of us--only to hear the door opening before the "Amen" and looking up to seeing him disappearing at full speed around the corner, luckily I was prepared and had taken off my church shoes to sit on the floor with him so I could take off full speed after him, got him just before he hit the RS room door, but the elders got to see us shoot through the gym one way and me picking him up and putting him over my shoulder kicking and screaming back to the room to wait for his parents to pick him up). It might not have been the most spiritual calling I've had, but it definitely taught me gratitude for the blessings that I've received in my family over the years.

---

I would hate to have given the impression that I thought it appropriate to pick and choose callings or even attendance by what I found most entertaining or interesting. My priority is "most needful" for both myself and others. The way I go about it is to see a need that I can fill well, ponder and pray about it and volunteer for those as opposed to waiting until someone extends a calling that my restrictions might hamper me in my performance of. The callings that I have ended up loving the most are the ones I didn't really want to do (teaching teenages in SS or boys right after school in cubs when they wanted to be out playing with their friends), but knew I could and the need was there. I have found that duty becomes desire and happiness in the work follows.

[Zakuska]

Yawn*

Nice proof text. This is almost laughable.

Tell me about it... Jesus also said sell everything you have, give it to the poor and come follow me. Talk about your burdens and requirments. These people lived church 24-seven. 3 hours is nothin!

[William Schryver]

I don't think it is that apparent that lack of entertainment is his wife's issue. It might be more along the lines of feeling like she doesn't fit in.

I used to bemoan the fact that I just couldn't seem to find anyone "like me" in whatever ward I was in. And it was pretty much true. The more I examined the situation, the more I realized that I was extremely unique ... just like everybody else.

Now I still don't have any of what I would call "close friends" in my ward (except for my wife, of course, who is my bestest friend in the whole world and just probably the finest woman to every walk the face of the earth -- no offense intended to any of the other women on the board, and especially members of the UMW) but the fact is, I really have learned to appreciate people for what they are, rather than faulting them for what they aren't. I love the good people of my ward. They are, for the most part, not nearly as inclined to the "intellectual" kinds of things that often interest me; they are also, for the most part, much more service-oriented than I am. And so I have something to offer them, and they have something to offer me. And it becomes a fabulously symbiotic relationship on occasion.

There was a woman in my previous ward who was well into her eighties, and although she was a college-educated woman once possessed of a very strong and incisive intellect, she was beginning to show some signs of mild dementia. She had assumed the role in our ward (every ward has one) of the woman (or man) who gets up every Fast Sunday to bear her testimony, often using the exact same phrases every time, and often taking about five minutes (or more) too long.

She had been converted in southern California back in the early 70s in consequence of the good example of a family that lived across the street from her and her family. Every single testimony meeting she would tell the same story of their example and her conversion: "I wanted what they had!," she would say.

Sometimes it was a challenging experience. But we bore her infirmities as best we could.

Every Sunday when she arrived, usually about 10 minutes early, I would momentarily suspend my prelude music (I was the ward organist and EQ president at the same time back then) and make certain to go down to her pew and take her hand in mine and welcome her. It was a small thing, but it meant a lot to her. One week, not long before she died, she held my hand a little longer than usual, and looking intently at me with glistening eyes, she carefully said, "Will, I would like you to stand with my sons as a pall bearer at my funeral." I told her I would be honored to do that, but I would prefer that she not rush into anything too soon.

A few months later, five of her sons and grandsons joined with me in carrying her earthly remains from the chapel doors to the waiting hearse. We had just finished singing Each Life That Touches Ours for Good, one of my favorite hymns:

Each life that touches ours for good

Reflects thine own great mercy, Lord.

Thou sendest blessings from above

Through words and deeds of those who love.

What greater gift dost thou bestow,

What greater goodness can we know

Than Christ-like friends, whose gentle ways

Strengthen our faith, enrich our days.

When such a friend from us departs

We hold forever in our hearts

A sweet and hallowed memory,

Bringing us nearer, Lord, to thee.

For worthy friends whose lives proclaim

Devotion to the Savior's name,

Who bless our days with peace and love,

We praise thy goodness Lord above.

We no longer have to endure old Sue telling the same old story of her conversion to the gospel. I suppose that means our testimony meetings run more smoothly than they used to.

Still ... I miss her.

[gmormon]

I used to bemoan the fact that I just couldn't seem to find anyone "like me" in whatever ward I was in. And it was pretty much true. The more I examined the situation, the more I realized that I was extremely unique ... just like everybody else.

Now I still don't have any of what I would call "close friends" in my ward (except for my wife, of course, who is my bestest friend in the whole world and just probably the finest woman to every walk the face of the earth -- no offense intended to any of the other women on the board, and especially members of the UMW) but the fact is, I really have learned to appreciate people for what they are, rather than faulting them for what they aren't. I love the good people of my ward. They are, for the most part, not nearly as inclined to the "intellectual" kinds of things that often interest me; they are also, for the most part, much more service-oriented than I am. And so I have something to offer them, and they have something to offer me. And it becomes a fabulously symbiotic relationship on occasion.

There was a woman in my previous ward who was well into her eighties, and although she was a college-educated woman once possessed of a very strong and incisive intellect, she was beginning to show some signs of mild dementia. She had assumed the role in our ward (every ward has one) of the woman (or man) who gets up every Fast Sunday to bear her testimony, often using the exact same phrases every time, and often taking about five minutes (or more) too long.

She had been converted in southern California back in the early 70s in consequence of the good example of a family that lived across the street from her and her family. Every single testimony meeting she would tell the same story of their example and her conversion: "I wanted what they had!," she would say.

Sometimes it was a challenging experience. But we bore her infirmities as best we could.

Every Sunday when she arrived, usually about 10 minutes early, I would momentarily suspend my prelude music (I was the ward organist and EQ president at the same time back then) and make certain to go down to her pew and take her hand in mine and welcome her. It was a small thing, but it meant a lot to her. One week, not long before she died, she held my hand a little longer than usual, and looking intently at me with glistening eyes, she carefully said, "Will, I would like you to stand with my sons as a pall bearer at my funeral." I told her I would be honored to do that, but I would prefer that she not rush into anything too soon.

A few months later, five of her sons and grandsons joined with me in carrying her earthly remains from the chapel doors to the waiting hearse. We had just finished singing Each Life That Touches Ours for Good, one of my favorite hymns:

We no longer have to endure old Sue telling the same old story of her conversion to the gospel. I suppose that means our testimony meetings run more smoothly than they used to.

Still ... I miss her.

Thanks!!!

We never know when we/I can be the one person somebody else is looking for to make their life more complete by being where we/I should be. Sometimes it the little things that mean the most.

[Doctor Steuss]

Some random, disjointed and rambling musings on the topicâ?¦

One of the great things of the Mormon experience is fellowship. Having a community of commonality. Mormonism is beyond just a religion -- it is a way of life. It forms dietary habits, acceptable social activities, interests, etc. This can often be a cause of discomfort for those who are inactive (as Iâ??ve seen with inactive family members) when around those who are active, as the Church is such a large portion of their life that it is unavoidably part of every social situation and/or gathering in some way/shape/form (and thusly can cause a feeling of ostracism).

This same sense of ostracism might also be caused by not having enough of a â??commonalityâ? with the community.

The cause of the feeling that Church is tedious, mind-numbing, and something to be endured (a three hour cross which we must bear) might be largely due to a lack of the feeling of fellowship.

I was sitting here thinking of when Church was the most enjoyable to me (i.e. something that I looked forward to): It was when I was in a ward with all of my friends. Church wasnâ??t the only thing we had in common (in fact, three of my friends left the church [one returned] and our friendship has remained unchanged as beliefs have shifted), but it was something additional that we could share. Church wasnâ??t just a set of meetings, and lessons, but an opportunity to enjoy each otherâ??s company while engaging in something we had in common. The last stint where I attended regularly (just a few years ago) was largely because of the friendship I had with my bishop. We would meet usually once a week (in his office) and talk about poetry, literature, philosophy, and life in general. Mormonism was rarely (if ever) a topic of our conversations. It was this friendship which lifted me up. It was the friendship that was a representation of the gospel that had enamored me in my youth.

Maybe what we often feel as boredom, ennui, and tedium is actually a bit of loneliness. We look about us, seeing those who are enjoying their Church experience and it reminds us that we are missing something they haveâ?¦ the close bonds they are sharing in when at Church.

Hopefully your wife will find someone who is similarly â??boredâ? with Church, and through that mutual loathing of liturgy will find joy in sharing a portion of Sunday in common worship together.

Maybe the hatred of the three hours isnâ??t because of what it is; but because of what we are seemingly missing.

(I think being in a ward with you, Consiglieri, would potentially be enough for me to find Church enjoyableâ?¦ sort of).

[Edited to add: Having read the last group of posts that occurred while I was compiling my ramble, it seems like the musing has ventured into other's minds to a degree -- Once again, I find that I am but an echo... of a duck.]

[Avatar4321]

Ive had days where I didnt like being at the ward. Ive felt alone and just wanted to go home.

Sometimes I did go home.

Ive thought of just not going for a while, But the more I think about it, the more I want to do what I can to help others. Even if I dont like it at the time, I can still go there and do good.

And its not because of duty. Its because I want to help people. And I want to build up Zion. I just know when im tired I can trust on the Lord.

I dont know why Im saying all this, Just felt like saying it after reading some of the thread.

[Calm]

It is certainly possible that you have me pegged dead on.

My wife, on the other hand, is a kind and sensitive soul, generous to a fault, and the kind of person that folks feel lucky to have as a friend.

Kind of like the "older couple" who decided to leave the Church.

I hope I would not be going too far to suggest that the attitude you have expressed is part of the problem rather than the solution.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You might want to look elsewhere besides within your chapel's walls for ideas on what might be affecting her feelings on this. It may have to do with personality aspects that aren't normally noticed because most of the rest of the time one is not restricted in movement or in choice of action, etc. Sometimes people mistake physical or emotional discomfort for mental discomfort and even little annoyances, when not paid attention or adapted to, can inflate their effect influencing one's ability to connect with a particular situation and the people involved.

My husband generally comes home these days from Church with a migraine. One could assume that it was something at Church causing it, but having done some extensive study of such things I am well aware that weekend migraines are very common, it is when the week's pressure lets up that the headache is 'allowed' to hit.

Some people, I have found, just don't like Church because it is different than their usual routine, they feel disoriented and out of control and resentful even. Some people have a hard time shifting gears and need to have a longer preparation time to get into a Church appreciative mode, setting up 'rituals' for Saturday night and Sunday both before and after Church can help there.

I'm not suggesting that any of these is your family's issue, just that you may need to get creative not only in solutions, but in looking for what the core of the problem is in the first place and not let yourself get distracted by what appears to be the immediate crisis or squeaky wheel or whatever. At best if you do that, you have only come up with a temporary solution and the problem will simply reappear in another form. It can take a lot of work and time, but in my case it was certainly worth it.

[Mudcat]

And yet when he brings up his "teaching moments" here they are more than a little self aggrandizing. A kind of "why don't they understand me..." undertone. I can see them both sitting there wanting to be "entertained".

Jeff,

Seems Consig has chosen to take the high road in regards to your comment for whatever reason. I suppose its because he's cool and IMO has a heart for Christ.

Your judgmental and classless appraisal of his wife and himself certainly doesn't diminish my opinion of the character of either one of them in my eyes. Though it does significantly lower my opinion of yours.

I don't expect you to be concerned about my opinions.

However, I felt compelled to say something.

[Calm]

I was sitting here thinking of when Church was the most enjoyable to me (i.e. something that I looked forward to): It was when I was in a ward with all of my friends. Church wasn't the only thing we had in common (in fact, three of my friends left the church [one returned] and our friendship has remained unchanged as beliefs have shifted), but it was something additional that we could share. Church wasn't just a set of meetings, and lessons, but an opportunity to enjoy each other's company while engaging in something we had in common. The last stint where I attended regularly (just a few years ago) was largely because of the friendship I had with my bishop. We would meet usually once a week (in his office) and talk about poetry, literature, philosophy, and life in general. Mormonism was rarely (if ever) a topic of our conversations. It was this friendship which lifted me up. It was the friendship that was a representation of the gospel that had enamored me in my youth.

Maybe what we often feel as boredom, ennui, and tedium is actually a bit of loneliness. We look about us, seeing those who are enjoying their Church experience and it reminds us that we are missing something they haveâ?¦ the close bonds they are sharing in when at Church.

I am actually grateful at this point in my life to be in a relatively small town in Utah. It allows me to slip into that sense of community that is much harder to get when there's distance between members (though being a small community among others can also have ways of knitting people together for those who are active). Even when I am unable to get to Church on Sunday, there are still other days I see members and am able to feel that connection that exists between people who are working together for a common meaningful, even eternal goal, supporting the other when they are weak, receiving help when it is one's own turn to be in need.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...] supporting the other when they are weak, receiving help when it is one's own turn to be in need.

Wonderfully (and beautifully) said.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

I've spent way too much time reading MA&DB over the years. I must say, however, this has been one of the most enlightening threads I've ever read. I too, at times, have struggled with church being boring. I've found joy, however, in focusing on what I can contribute to make the meetings better. I try to make comments that uplift, volunteer to play the organ (so that it isn't slow and boring), etc. I find that the more I do to contribute to make the meetings better, the more I enjoy them. As I focus on others or the good of the whole, I feel more inspired and uplifted individually.

[Anijen]

Some random, disjointed and rambling musings on the topicâ?¦

One of the great things of the Mormon experience is fellowship. Having a community of commonality. Mormonism is beyond just a religion -- it is a way of life. It forms dietary habits, acceptable social activities, interests, etc. This can often be a cause of discomfort for those who are inactive (as Iâ??ve seen with inactive family members) when around those who are active, as the Church is such a large portion of their life that it is unavoidably part of every social situation and/or gathering in some way/shape/form (and thusly can cause a feeling of ostracism).

This same sense of ostracism might also be caused by not having enough of a â??commonalityâ? with the community.

The cause of the feeling that Church is tedious, mind-numbing, and something to be endured (a three hour cross which we must bear) might be largely due to a lack of the feeling of fellowship.

I was sitting here thinking of when Church was the most enjoyable to me (i.e. something that I looked forward to): It was when I was in a ward with all of my friends. Church wasnâ??t the only thing we had in common (in fact, three of my friends left the church [one returned] and our friendship has remained unchanged as beliefs have shifted), but it was something additional that we could share. Church wasnâ??t just a set of meetings, and lessons, but an opportunity to enjoy each otherâ??s company while engaging in something we had in common. The last stint where I attended regularly (just a few years ago) was largely because of the friendship I had with my bishop. We would meet usually once a week (in his office) and talk about poetry, literature, philosophy, and life in general. Mormonism was rarely (if ever) a topic of our conversations. It was this friendship which lifted me up. It was the friendship that was a representation of the gospel that had enamored me in my youth.

Maybe what we often feel as boredom, ennui, and tedium is actually a bit of loneliness. We look about us, seeing those who are enjoying their Church experience and it reminds us that we are missing something they haveâ?¦ the close bonds they are sharing in when at Church.

Hopefully your wife will find someone who is similarly â??boredâ? with Church, and through that mutual loathing of liturgy will find joy in sharing a portion of Sunday in common worship together.

Maybe the hatred of the three hours isnâ??t because of what it is; but because of what we are seemingly missing.

(I think being in a ward with you, Consiglieri, would potentially be enough for me to find Church enjoyableâ?¦ sort of).

[Edited to add: Having read the last group of posts that occurred while I was compiling my ramble, it seems like the musing has ventured into other's minds to a degree -- Once again, I find that I am but an echo... of a duck.]

I would be comfortable with consig and you Herr Dr. in my ward too. I do look forward to sacrament to renew my covenants so i can be clean again (that is, until my next mess up). Fellowship is the key. BTW you are now a source for my current sig.