My Wife's Encounter with some Lovely Ex-Mormons

[Honorentheos]

That may be. I have gone through an inactive period and gotten over it when I slowly realized that I needed to become active and do something that cared for others than focus on my own heirarchy of needs. I found that did more for my testimony than any number of intellectual exercises (which is entertainment), but in the end it was about entertainment and not being focused on what salvation is about, including the church attendance and my help to make that ward a better place.

I hear what you are saying with this. Personally, I think there is a psychological benefit to service that we severly underestimate and church(es) provde good opportunities for this. My personal opinion is that they are not necessary for one to fulfill this need, but they certainly make it more accessible and also provide a group within which one can share this experience as well.

I don't here any of that in the description.

To me, the point that she went back because of her daughter shows that service and an act of selflessness is part of the description. But really, beyond that I think we are getting too far into speculation about someone else we do not really know to be able to accurately ascribe specific motives or lack-of-motives.

I don't think that means a person should not offer personal experience or insights from their own life by any means. Or general opinions, either. Just not personal ones about the subject of whom we really know next to nothing.

[Jeff K.]

In court it would be remarked that "the door was opened".

I hear only the question of entertainment and the painting of a ward as unhappy which speaks to a gaze significantly lowered from eternal life and looking for others to sustain rather than seeking to sustain others (and consequently one's self).

[LDSMusic483]

I presume nothing. I simply note the responsibilities of those in Sunday School who teach, as well as who participate.

If you don't think such a responsibility exists, please feel free to explain what responsibility a person in Sunday School holds.

If I didn't think such a responsibility exists, I would have a difficult time explaining that said responsibility. But that is not what I think. Members of the class hold the obligation of studying the material that will be covered in any given class. My point is though that if (for example) we were to cover Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost in a class, and during my personal preparation I gathered some insights about the Gift of the Holy Ghost that I wished to share with the class, I'm not about to begin to interrupt the class and share these insights when they are discussing Faith, Repentance, or Baptism.

[Jeff K.]

I have never known insights from the teacher or from the course of the lesson to be the equivalent of sharing anecdonte in the class. Anecdotes are sometimes nice, sometimes they should not be shared. I don't say nor imply taking away the lesson, but listening and learning. There are entire books written on faith, repentance and baptism and there is an almost inexhaustible supply of works that follow. Even what appears the most mundane is open to insight that requires no interruption to others or a hijacking of the class discussion.

[LDSMusic483]

In court it would be remarked that "the door was opened".

I hear only the question of entertainment and the painting of a ward as unhappy which speaks to a gaze significantly lowered from eternal life and looking for others to sustain rather than seeking to sustain others (and consequently one's self).

You hear the question of entertainment because it was you who raised and continue to raise it. Perception of unhappiness, may have just been that...a perception, but it was hers. I don't think everyone looks happy all the time at church. I'm sure they are smiling when they greet one another, but last I remember from the last talk I gave, most individuals don't sit and smile throughout a talk. You'll have a few individuals who will because they're family, or they just don't know how to frown, but otherwise, I'd say the looks are probably rather devoid of cheerfulness. From what Honorentheos just mentioned, she is serving her children (and husband) by attending.

[Jeff K.]

All you or anyone has to do is provide an alternative to the word "entertainment".

I might also add it takes it incredibly naive individual of only a few years to believe that active smiling is requried for happiness to exist. The quote was an obvious reference to "unhappiness" ie an positive action that people are actively unhappy.

[LDSMusic483]

I have never known insights from the teacher or from the course of the lesson to be the equivalent of sharing anecdonte in the class. Anecdotes are sometimes nice, sometimes they should not be shared. I don't say nor imply taking away the lesson, but listening and learning. There are entire books written on faith, repentance and baptism and there is an almost inexhaustible supply of works that follow. Even what appears the most mundane is open to insight that requires no interruption to others or a hijacking of the class discussion.

Next time I'm going to use a little more vague of an example like the returning of the twelve tribes from the north and the 7 headed beast from Revelations.

[Jeff K.]

Books written about those too.

[LDSMusic483]

Books written about those too.

Yes, but far less then the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, and I don't have enough money to go out and by books on a weekly basis based on the changing topic.

Back to the task at hand. You didn't respond to part of a post of mine that would help me to give you a different word than entertainment to use. You defined intellectual reasoning (I think was the phrase) as entertainment. I was curious as to what you would define the purpose of auxilliary meetings to be if not to go through intellectual reasoning to influence testimony and later actions?

Also, I think more than going around in circles, there is a key part of information that would help alleviate some of the surrounding mysteries regarding why his wife does not going to church. The comment from Consiglieri was:

My wife mentioned perhaps being interested in going to another stake to the north, as our entire stake is not to her liking (due to things probably too complicated to go into here . . . unless you want me to).

This causes me to think that regardless of one's definition of entertainment, it is not the cause of her discomfort, unless the Stake to the North is considered a highly entertaining one?

We might get further if we were to have Consiglieri at least give us some broad strokes on the complicated reasons for her not liking their Stake.

[Jeff K.]

Grass is always greener. You make the ward you are in Zion. Enoch did not leave to find a place that was better, he made the pace he was in better.

[LDSMusic483]

Grass is always greener. You make the ward you are in Zion. Enoch did not leave to find a place that was better, he made the pace he was in better.

No, but Lehi, consequently Nephi, Joseph Smith and the early Saints, Moses and the children of Israel, Noah (in a sense), and many others did find their zions elsewhere.

Grass is always greener. You make the ward you are in Zion. Enoch did not leave to find a place that was better, he made the pace he was in better.

You still didn't reply about what I asked?

[rpn]

There are different styles of worship, of course. And any of us who naturally drift toward different forms can struggle with the blandness. And individuals may also have mortal difficulty with hearing or focus or concentration or anxiety or other illness that affect their worship experience. But I see this as an opportunity to learn to control our desires and wants to conform with His will.

Anyone who believes the church is true and run under Christ's direction has to also accept and even find a way to have joy (I did that as a teen by looking up the hymns that pertained to the messages and memorizing the hymns. There was a period when I would write sermons that were good in my head. I don't pretend that either is really in keeping with seeking the spirit to teach and help me benefit from attending, but they did help pass the time and review the material presented.)

People who find it burdensome may have missed the recent conference talk on the purpose of sunday meetings (elder oaks, as I recall in Nov). And once they do find a way to gladly submit, they may be blessed with the Spirit in a way that makes attending no longer a drudge.

[Jeff K.]

No, but Lehi, consequently Nephi, Joseph Smith and the early Saints, Moses and the children of Israel, Noah (in a sense), and many others did find their zions elsewhere.You still didn't reply about what I asked?

Tell you what, if they say the Lord appeared to them and told them to start a new church, we should start a thread on it, otherwise it doesn't really hold water.

[alter idem]

Jeff K. If you choose to think that Consig's wife's problem is that she wants to be entertained, you have that right. However, if that's your diagnosis, you'll have little more to offer in the way of helping him find a solution--that is, unless you've got some finger puppet activities or quiet church games you could suggest he try. The point being, we want him to be able to HELP his wife--not heap more condemnation on her. I think that's part of what she is feeling and why she doesn't want to be there...and probably why that couple she knows feel they are happier not attending anymore.

[Jeff K.]

Finger puppet is good. My solution is for her to request a calling that engages her with the ward.

And its not about heaping condemnation, no one is heaping really except the people reading all kinds of things into my posts. You cannot help until you understand the source, I explained that earlier.

[LDSMusic483]

Tell you what, if they say the Lord appeared to them and told them to start a new church, we should start a thread on it, otherwise it doesn't really hold water.

Well, I'm pretty sure if you look hard enough...somewhere on here you just might find something about the Lord appearing to Joseph Smith and instructing him to start a new church. I'm sure you might have to dig hard though...

[alter idem]

Finger puppet is good. My solution is for her to request a calling that engages her with the ward.

And its not about heaping condemnation, no one is heaping really except the people reading all kinds of things into my posts. You cannot help until you understand the source, I explained that earlier.

Yes, I'm sure you don't mean to "heap condemnation"...but unfortunately, if that's what the person on the receiving end feels, it doesn't really matter that you didn't mean it that way. And this is one way that church becomes oppressive and uninviting to some members. Some people feel that others are judging them and so they don't want to be there.

I agree with you that having a calling helps engage a person in their ward, but there may be more to it than just finding her a calling. Consig admitted his wife had problems with their ward and stake, but did not go into detail, so I'm sure there is more to it than we know--and probably in her particular case, there is more to it than she is bored and wants to be entertained.

[Calm]

Is she an introvert? Introverts feel drained after interaction with people, especially large groups (where extroverts feel charged).

The world at large, and the average LDS ward in particular, favors the extrovert.

My husband and I are both introverts. He handles church by taking frequent breaks to "check on the kids" or whatever. I handle it either by sitting alone in a back corner, or by sitting next to one person I know well.

I used to dread church, but something changed recently. I'm not sure why. I began to realize the difference in the rest of my week the Sundays I failed to attend compared to the weeks I did attend.

I usually can find a thought or two in one of the talks, or hymns, or lessons that I can ponder and enjoy as I mentally slip off into my own little world.

Sounds a lot like what I have done in the past...except for the fact my husband is more extrovert than introverted most of the time. My current calling, librarian, allows me my own personal physical space that doesn't get pushed into much because of a handy half door that keeps me on one side and the rest of the ward on the other, lol. It makes it easy for me to concentrate on the person I'm talking to and not get as tired by having to filter out what is going on around me as happens in crowded places.

[Calm]

...In other words, what alternative do you consider if it isn't a need for entertainment in regard to her feelings.

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I know some men, many women and even more youth who find church boring not because they want to be entertained, but because they don't find great meaning within the services, feel their callings are more about keeping them busy then actually accomplishing something of eternal or even immediate value--teachers who want to feel more like mentors and less like babysitters, class members who want to feel like they contribute in important ways and not by just filling a seat or providing a rote answer. They want to make a difference, don't know how and their frustration can appear in many ways, including what appears to be withdrawal to others as they 'protect' themselves so the negative feelings are as limited as they can make them, an effort made because they truly want to like Church and the community and all they can think of is making it so they limit their dislike of it. In many cases they are at a loss on how to change things because they don't want to cause trouble or hurt people's feelings so they just go along with the current program and refrain from experimenting until they find a happy compromise that works not only most times for them, but for others in the faith.

[Calm]

All you or anyone has to do is provide an alternative to the word "entertainment".

I might also add it takes it incredibly naive individual of only a few years to believe that active smiling is requried for happiness to exist. The quote was an obvious reference to "unhappiness" ie an positive action that people are actively unhappy.

You are making connections here that may or may not exist. In all through your posts you are presenting people as having limited reasons for perceiving or responding in certain ways, something that is not evident in reality for everyone (though certainly is accurate for some individuals).

Not everyone, especially introverts, are adept at reading people's faces. There are many 'neutral' expressions that can be often read as 'negative' in my experience, especially among individuals who have grown up around other individuals who have emotional disorders.

Part of her perception may be projecting on the neutral expressions her own feelings, it also might be simply that in her experience, she has learned that 'neutral' is equivalent to 'unhappy' (perhaps her family is mainly extroverted and therefore is one that sees anything that does not include happy activity is essentially unhappiness--one of my grandmothers was like that, she couldn't understand that I could be happy just sitting looking out the window or even reading a book, happiness to her meant busyness).

[Calm]

Grass is always greener. You make the ward you are in Zion. Enoch did not leave to find a place that was better, he made the pace he was in better.

Again, a limited, relatively black and white interpretation of her responses based on extremely limited knowledge.

[Calm]

Grass is always greener. You make the ward you are in Zion. Enoch did not leave to find a place that was better, he made the pace he was in better.

We wouldn't have very many converts if everyone approached life this way.

[e=mc2]

Thanks everybody for your posts. I really appreciate them.

In order to direct this thread toward what is really going on, I will add a few comments.

First, as far as my wife is concerned, this isn't about the Church expecting too much from her. She is pretty independent (okay, very independent) and has no problem doing only as much as she wants to do.

It also isn't doctrinal. She believes the Church is true, to coin a phrase.

Her problem is that attending Church is a drab and inglorious experience . . . every time . . . all the time . . . every Sunday . . . for three hours.

She hates it.

It is because of her fiercely independent spirit that she just stopped going to Church for a number of years.

The reason she started going back to Church isn't because she likes it, but rather because of expectations she feels from her children.

I know this may sound strange, but our 21-year old daughter who is a junior at college started going inactive because of issues she has with how the LDS Church deals with women members. My wife had long talks with her about how she needed to be going to Church, which ended up "reactivating" my wife because she felt she couldn't really be telling her daughter to go to Church when she was not; in fact, I think it was kind of a quid pro quo thing; my wife would go to Church if our daughter would, too.

And so they are both going to a Church they don't enjoy or even like.

Last night, I asked my wife if she wanted to go to a different Church.

She said she didn't feel she could, not only because of our 21-year old daughter, but also because of our 24-year old son who is a senior at the Air Force Academy, who was an AP on his mission to Scotland, and who is on fire with enthusiasm for the Church.

My wife felt that if she left the Church, she would disappoint him.

My wife also felt it would be confusing to our 12-year old, who we have raised LDS.

So I am dealing with the following situation:

My wife believes the Church is true, but hates attending Church so much that she regularly tells me she "hates Sundays."

My wife would not attend Church except she feels compelled to because of her children.

As we talked, I had to muse out loud why anybody would go to Church when they hated it so much.

And so I thought I would muse out loud to you good folks on this board.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I suppose I would have to ask, is going to church worshipping God? Just askin is all................... Sunday is about resting, and worshipping God. My personal favorite way is to study the scriptures. I tend to shy away from mettings myself. It's like Nibley who wrote that the zeal for attending meetings is way out of proportion to the desire for real worship, kknowledge, and truth. The impression that attending church and being "active" is worshipping God has always struck me as, well, misguided. Yet, we are instructed to partake of the sacrament, and meet together often, yes?

[Calm]

Well, I'm pretty sure if you look hard enough...somewhere on here you just might find something about the Lord appearing to Joseph Smith and instructing him to start a new church. I'm sure you might have to dig hard though...

I have known individuals (mainly among the youth thankfully) who feel the Lord has given them a mission and yet are hopeless because they don't see how in their present situations how to achieve this. Part of this hopelessness is based in their self-perception that they aren't actually capable of achieving what they believe the Lord wants them to.

Even JS didn't get step by step instructions for everything to do with starting the LDS faith. He did have the benefit of having the equivalent of a 2X4 hitting him across the jaw in the Lord's assurance that he was picked for a reason and the Lord knew he could do the work if he just kept at it. If you haven't received that personal assurance yet, life can be very uncertain and fearful for some especially if you are treading new ground in comparison to your upbringing.

[Cold Steel]

Now they attend a local Evangelical Church and everybody is happy there, and they have friends and enjoy participating in the worship services. My wife said she agreed with them; that she also hates going to the Mormon Church....

When I was a mere sprat of a child, me sainted mother, impatient at me poor attitude, said if I didn't behave, she'd give me something to cry about. Somehow this comes to mind. It seems that reading about the saints trekking their way across the plains and living in homes with dirt floors draws a wee bit more sympathy than someone who doesn't like the meetings.

That said, she can attend the Sacrament meeting and then leave for the day if she has a mind to, as I don't believe the other meetings are required. I've been known to walk out of various meetings due to babies crying, speakers who begin sobbing two minutes into their talks and then go on speaking for another twenty.

Even so, I would urge that she try to keep these things in perspective and not allow discontent to spread unchecked. In context, these aren't severe hardships, not like the kind that will visit us in the not too distant future.