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Everything posted by Honorentheos

  1. That's not answering the question asked. You dismissed the very notion of Native Americans on the grounds the Americas were populated by a migration. The same could be said of Australia, Europe, Asia, and almost everywhere except sub-Saharan Africa where the human species originated. So why single out Native Americans in this way? It would seem your zeal in imposing a Mormon worldview onto the evidence is taking you into problematic territory on this issue.
  2. Yeah, that was a terrible paper that failed on all points. The over 800 comments on The Interpreter involved probably the only real review the work legitimately received and exposed failings from it's use of Bayesian Analysis to the abysmal abuse of parallel mania that the supposed points were based on. It's a poor showing on the part of the Dales.
  3. And minus some small bits of Mosiah for whom it's generally assumed Emma served as scribe, Oliver was the scribe for the text we have. Them's the facts. Considering the Whitmers used the Book of Mormon to claim a leadership role in their own Church that lasted into the 1890s, the Smiths battled over the church with the 12, Oliver had a soft split from Smith going to lead the Missouri saints that flared into a schism and his departure into a life in which he struggled to shake the Mormon albatross until his failures sent him back...I don't know. Sounds like a pretty shaky relationship b
  4. Servetus was executed for heretical beliefs while Abinidi was killed for telling a King he was a sinner. Abinidi went to King Noah knowing he'd be killed but playing the role of mythical martyr while Servetus was executed by Calvanists to whom he had fled trying to escape the Catholics. So, yeah. I'm 1829 it very much is Joseph and Oliver's religion. That includes the very non-LDS view of the godhead, the hodgepodge of Protestant beliefs with a Methodist lean, ect. It's written before he developed his theology which evolved constantly over the 14 years or so between the founding a
  5. You seem to demand we conflate the Book of Lehi project with the Book of Mormon project when we are not able to review the content of the Book of Lehi. Frankly, the theory of production I favor includes the work taking place in front of the Smiths and Whitmers during the April to June 1829 period when the bulk of the BoM was produced. Oliver and David were clearly co-conspiritors with Smith using Harris to fund the project. Smith and Oliver describe discussing the work which included precipitated claimed milestone events such as their baptism, the ordaining to the priesthood and many of the se
  6. You seem to want to include descriptions of Book of Lehi project which was aborted after that manuscript was lost. The numerous scribes, witnesses, and accounts of that project cannot be compared with a text we can then read and see the quality and content of the product. That project took a little under a year to produce approximately 116 pages. The BoM project that followed and almost exclusively involved Smith and Cowdery working at the farm owned by the Whitmers included over 400 pages produced in about three months. Smith famously refused to commit to a narrative description of it's produ
  7. Again, another close reading exercise. The Book of Mormon includes a martyr's tale in the story of Abinidi. Not particularly interesting given Smith would have known of many from Stephen in the NT to the stories of the deaths of the original Apostles and beyond. Christian pacifism was a topic in Smith's day including espoused by the aforementioned Campbell. The wars in the Book of Mormon are nothing like the English revolution but wars between two opposing nation's that is practically obvious fiction for being between two factions over the course of centuries that reform three centuries a
  8. Calling for a renaissance-era source for a book published in the late 1820s whose manufacture we know came about at that time is logical? The content isn't systematically, consistently EmodE. It is far more logical, practically required for the sake of the evidence, to acknowledge the best explanation is those responsible for it were not native speakers of Early Modern English but rather attempting to replicate the language of the KJV to sound scriptural. The text is not EmodE, but merely contains phrases which vary in their frequency of use inconsistent with your claim. Given the eviden
  9. Regarding the theology being saturated with in 19th c. concerns we can turn to Smith's contemporary from the Stone-Campbell movement, Alexander Campbell: "This prophet Smith, through his stone spectacles, wrote on the plates of Nephi, in his book of Mormon, every error and almost every truth discussed in N. York for the last ten years. He decides all the great controversies – infant baptism, ordination, the trinity, regeneration, repentance, justification, the fall of man, the atonement, transubstantiation, fasting, penance, church government, religious experience, the call to the ministr
  10. We agree, there is no systemic use of Early Modern English evident Smith's or Cowdery's writings though they apparently sprinkle them into their attempts to sound biblical. We seem to disagree that the BoM also fails to show systemic use of Early Modern English but instead has them sprinkled throughout. The advocate of a mysterious EmodE contributor finds themselves relying on Smith as the source for the non-EModE language but is still left with the problem you dismiss above. The obvious explaination is Smith/Cowdery as non-native EModE speakers were not using it subconsciously as a true
  11. We have evidence that Smith and Cowdery used these archaic forms outside of the BoM when attempting to sound biblical. We have the vast, vast majority of evidence in multiple fields clearly contradicting the notion Nephites were a real people rather than a fictional group invented in the 19th c. for the BoM narrative. The overwhelming majority of people who are even vaguely aware of the existence of the BoM don't think twice about it having been authored in the 19th c. by Smith such that this idea the English version of it was actually penned before the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock wo
  12. It's hit or miss in the BoM and not systemic. EmodE is not the dominant voice here. If it were you wouldn't have to tease it out of the text or find comparative occurrances.
  13. Smith used "have smote" in a record while serving as Mayor in Nauvoo: "We have done good for evil long enough, in all conscience, we think that we have fulfilled the scriptures every whit. They have smitten us on the one cheek, and we have turned the other, and they have smote that also."
  14. I don't know. It seems the point is either the language found in the BoM could have been created by someone in the 19th c. attempting to sound biblical or the presence of these archaic phrases can only be explained by supernatural means. I don't think arguing Smith couldn't do this having the Bible as inspiration but then could later on having the BoM as inspiration is well thought out as arguments go. Seems like that's missing...well, something.
  15. Next up: lest-shall. Directly from Joseph Smith's journal: "the Bread & wine was then brought in, and I observed that we had fasted all the day; and lest we faint; as the Saviour did so shall we do on this occasion, we shall bless the bread and give it to the 12 and they to the multitude, after which we shall bless the wine and do likewise"
  16. Inspired fiction was the "in" franchise among dead 16th c. writers looking for a venue to get their work published from beyond the grave?
  17. So far following Carmack and searching the Joseph Smith Papers has been 2 for 2. But its worse than this. The phrases show up in the writings of Cowdery when he is waxing biblical, too. It seems this theory should have looked at the potential 19th c. authors and their other similar writings rather than at other pseudo biblical texts for comparisons.
  18. I thought the point was that Smith couldn't pretend to use EmodE otherwise he could be accused of attempting to mimic the language of the KJV. It had to be given to him. Or is that post shifting?
  19. Just checked out the paper in your post, Nevo. Following a similar exercise as before, it looked like the first example from his paper of EmodE in the BoM included the use of "of" where a modern written would have used "by". Since "of the" was almost guaranteed to overwhelm a search attempt I thought of phrases typical of LDS writings and decided to try "commanded of the". Results? Here's the first one: I, Oliver [Cowdery], being commanded of the Lord God, to go forth unto the Lamanites, to proclaim glad tidings of great joy unto them, by presenting unto them the fulness of the
  20. I looked for more information on what, exactly, is being described as EmodE since it wasn't clear to me exactly what this evidence looked like. That led me to an article by Carmack that talked specifically about the phrase, "the more part" and it's use. Ok, that's interesting. So what happens when you search for that phrase at the Joseph Smith papers? You find it used in a letter written by Oliver Cowdery to Joseph. You find it in a letter to the church. It shows up in non-scriptural writings...written by Smith and Oliver Cowdery.
  21. That's not true. Theoretical physics is one example among a few where the math used is decidedly solid yet the potential of many theories remain outside being realized and observed. There are tools for testing hypothesis beyond observation.
  22. While there is plenty of the Bible extant in the Book of Mormon I don't see the comparison. And in the broader scope of world religious works and inspirational materials it's rather myopic to argue the BoM and the Bible sit uniquely apart.
  23. By disinterested, I mean that the study and fields of science involved are generally not interested in the question of Book of Mormon historicity. When the Book of Mormon was published a global flood was consistent with the state of geology. The book includes a narrative explanation from the 19th c. for the civilizations evident through archeology or just plain observation that has not only been overturned but shown to be quite problematic. In 1829 it was common to believe there had been a more civilized race that had been exterminated by the Native Americans. The Native Americans were co
  24. There are two major theories regarding the BoM's authorship. Either it came about through the gift and power of God, or it is a fictional story created in the 19th century. One of those is a singular event while the other is extremely commonplace. Under these two main theories are countless subtheories intended to explain the details of the parent main theory. To my mind none of them on either side is so compelling it demands to be accepted as fact. I personally favor Smith and Cowdery having worked openly on it together with full knowledge of the Whitmers it was a project. The production
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