The caricature: Mormons wishing to "get their own planet"?

[bluebell]

18 hours ago, manol said:

Yes, it's possible that I'm not thinking straight. 

What is Christ's mission?  My understanding is that it is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." 

Do you think he will succeed or fail?

It’s an interesting question because of the existence of our agency.  Can Christ succeed against another’s will?  Some say that given enough time everyone would eventually choose to follow Him.  I don’t know. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

It’s an interesting question because of the existence of our agency.  Can Christ succeed against another’s will?  Some say that given enough time everyone would eventually choose to follow Him.  I don’t know. 

I see boredom as a great motivator and the limitations on the lower kingdoms imply to me they would be susceptible after eons to boredom and want to therefore try new things, which requires learning and change, thus opening them up to accepting Christ more as I believe any desire to learn good things creates a connection to Christ even if minute at times, so that eventually even though it might take forever, all do choose to follow him.

But that ignores two things.  First is the lower kingdoms themselves are said to be beyond our imagination in desirability, so maybe they aren’t limited in a way that could eventually produce boredom.  Second is maybe boredom is a mortal weakness only due to our current limited awareness and it does not occur in our eternal manifestations.

Edited Tuesday at 09:36 PM by Calm

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

I see boredom as a great motivator and the limitations on the lower kingdoms imply to me they would be susceptible after eons to boredom and want to therefore try new things, which requires learning and change, thus opening them up to accepting Christ more as I believe any desire to learn good things creates a connection to Christ even if minute at times, so that eventually even though it might take forever, all do choose to follow him.

But that ignores two things.  First is the lower kingdoms themselves are said to be beyond our imagination in desirability, so maybe they aren’t limited in a way that could eventually produce boredom.  Second is maybe boredom is a mortal weakness only due to our current limited awareness and it does not occur in our eternal manifestations.

That could be.

I think it could also depend a lot on whether or not someone wanted to live by celestial laws. 

Edited Tuesday at 10:07 PM by bluebell

[Kenngo1969]

For what it's worth,the only thing I possess that truly is mine to surrender back to God that He did not give me in the first place is my will.

Edited Wednesday at 08:43 PM by Kenngo1969
Fixed typo.

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

For what it's worth,the only thing I possess that truly is mine to surrender back to God that zHe did not give me in the first place is my will.

What does it mean to you to surrender your will?

The way it’s often presented outside a basic aligning one’s will with God can be very negative, like giving up what makes one unique, not making any decisions for oneself anymore, agreeing to everything without considering consequences or morality, that kind of behaviour.

[manol]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

It’s an interesting question because of the existence of our agency.  Can Christ succeed against another’s will?  Some say that given enough time everyone would eventually choose to follow Him.  I don’t know. 

I was hoping @Stargazer would read and respond to my post asking whether Christ would succeed or fail.  I still hope so.

Imo @teddyaware's post is great, and must admit that I'm kinda thrilled he and I have common ground on this topic.  Quoting from his post here: 

22 hours ago, teddyaware said:

... why do ordained and empowered ministers from higher kingdoms of glory minister to and instruct the inhabitants of lower kingdoms of glory if there is no possibility for those in the lower kingdoms to eventually learn how to comply with the laws pertaining to higher kingdoms of glory, especially if the gospel of repentance continues to be the primary means provided by the Lord to facilitate spiritual growth and improvement?

@bluebell, in response to your question I don't know either, but my understanding is that free will is always respected because the progress has to be real internal growth instead of an outward performance.  I think the "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" thing is a manifestation of free will rather than coercion.  So if Christ is to succeed then I think it likely that "given enough time [and teaching and love and therapy and maybe even learning everything the hard way] everyone would eventually choose to follow Him."  But I do not claim to know the mechanism(s) by which this will happen.  Maybe the right words at the right time from the right person, even if that time does not come during mortality.  The Good Shepherd may have more ways to reach lost sheep than we have imagined.

There is a scripture which indicates, to me at least, that Christ will indeed succeed. D&C Section 3 verse 1:

"The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught."

And there is another scripture which indicates, to me at least, that we really are all in this together, far moreso that is outwardly apparent.  From Section 128, verse 18:

"For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect."

In the spirit of "in the mouth of two or more witnesses", one near-death experiencer described how much each person matters like this (I'm paraphrasing from memory):  "It's as if we are each a grain of sand in a magnificent giant sandcastle, but if just one grain of sand isn't there, the whole thing crumbles."

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:29 AM by manol

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, manol said:

I was hoping @Stargazer would read and respond to my post asking whether Christ would succeed or fail.  I still hope so.

Imo @teddyaware's post is great, and must admit that I'm kinda thrilled he and I have common ground on this topic.  Quoting from his post here: 

@bluebell, in response to your question I don't know either, but my understanding is that free will is always respected because the progress has to be real internal growth instead of an outward performance.  I think the "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" thing is a manifestation of free will rather than coercion.  So if Christ is to succeed then I think it likely that "given enough time [and teaching and love and therapy and maybe even learning everything the hard way] everyone would eventually choose to follow Him."  But I do not claim to know the mechanism(s) by which this will happen.  Maybe the right words at the right time from the right person, even if that time does not come during mortality.  The Good Shepherd may have more ways to reach lost sheep than we have imagined.

There is a scripture which indicates, to me at least, that Christ will indeed succeed. D&C Section 3 verse 1:

"The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught."

And there is another scripture which indicates, to me at least, that we really are all in this together, far moreso that is outwardly apparent.  From Section 128, verse 18:

"For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect."

In the spirit of "in the mouth of two or more witnesses", one near-death experiencer described how much each person matters like this (I'm paraphrasing from memory):  "It's as if we are each a grain of sand in a magnificent giant sandcastle, but if just one grain of sand isn't there, the whole thing crumbles."

 

For me, what it all distills down to is this: forever is a very long time for a beloved son or daughter of God to have to remain permanently stuck in a spiritual rut due too something that happened 10 billion earth years ago. Talk about forgiving but not forgetting! “All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.” (Joseph Smith)

Edited Wednesday at 04:32 AM by teddyaware

[Calm]

3 hours ago, manol said:

Imo @teddyaware's post is great, and must admit that I'm kinda thrilled he and I have common ground on this topic. 

I felt the same way.    I was going to post my wholehearted agreement…I think he stated the reasoning very clearly…but my iPad started its weird frustrating glitch it gets and I gave up and forgot to come back to it.

I do enjoy it when I find something I can strongly agree upon with someone I have many disagreements with.  Why is it so fulfilling when that happens, I wonder.  

In full agreement with teddy’s post above as well.  Wanting and being able to stay stuck in a rut just doesn’t seem reasonable for a human to me.  I don’t think we function that way, whether it’s boredom or a desire to accomplish things or curiosity or just the impossibility of staying still so to speak, movement seems inherent to us (though inertia and external obstacles often makes that movement a struggle).  Add to that equation a loving Father who is willing to smooth our way, a Brother willing to climb the obstacles with and even for us…

Edited Wednesday at 06:26 AM by Calm

[Stargazer]

On 7/14/2026 at 12:37 AM, longview said:

Also true of sons of perdition post-mortally. But the potential is still there IF they were to change their minds about denying the sun at noonday.

The potential is not still there. In D&C 76:28-38 it is made very clear. One cannot change one's mind about it. One can never be trusted ever again. 

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, manol said:

I was hoping @Stargazer would read and respond to my post asking whether Christ would succeed or fail.  I still hope so.

Imo @teddyaware's post is great, and must admit that I'm kinda thrilled he and I have common ground on this topic.  Quoting from his post here: 

@bluebell, in response to your question I don't know either, but my understanding is that free will is always respected because the progress has to be real internal growth instead of an outward performance.  I think the "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" thing is a manifestation of free will rather than coercion.  So if Christ is to succeed then I think it likely that "given enough time [and teaching and love and therapy and maybe even learning everything the hard way] everyone would eventually choose to follow Him."  But I do not claim to know the mechanism(s) by which this will happen.  Maybe the right words at the right time from the right person, even if that time does not come during mortality.  The Good Shepherd may have more ways to reach lost sheep than we have imagined.

There is a scripture which indicates, to me at least, that Christ will indeed succeed. D&C Section 3 verse 1:

"The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught."

And there is another scripture which indicates, to me at least, that we really are all in this together, far moreso that is outwardly apparent.  From Section 128, verse 18:

"For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect."

In the spirit of "in the mouth of two or more witnesses", one near-death experiencer described how much each person matters like this (I'm paraphrasing from memory):  "It's as if we are each a grain of sand in a magnificent giant sandcastle, but if just one grain of sand isn't there, the whole thing crumbles."

 

That could be.  I personally don't have a stance on the idea and think that there are reasonable arguments to be made from both sides.

[Stargazer]

On 7/14/2026 at 1:10 AM, manol said:

Yes, it's possible that I'm not thinking straight. 

What is Christ's mission?  My understanding is that it is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." 

Do you think he will succeed or fail?

You say you understand this, but if you think Moses 1:39 overcomes the rest of scripture, you are definitely not thinking straight. How can you imagine that everyone will eventually be exalted, no matter what they did? That sounds exactly like what Lucifer told Father, that if He let Lucifer do the job, he would get everyone back, and none would be lost. Because Lucifer would send them to earth, take away their agency, and force them to obey at all times, with no need for a Savior. This is what God told Moses:

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; [Moses 4:1-3]

Doctrine and Covenants 76 spends 119 verses describing the degrees of glory, and what it takes to get into each degree. Why bother, if both the Telestial and Terrestrial glories will eventually be empty, with all their denizens moving to the Celestial? It sounds as if you have been studying the Book of Nehor. Not the one here calling himself The Nehor, but the actual Nehor, who during the first year of Alma as the chief judge of the Nephites, was brought before Alma for murder. He had been teaching exactly what you have taught here. Alma 1:2-15 tells the story, but here's the pertinent verse:

4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

This is false doctrine.

The Father's mission is indeed to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And all will receive immortality through the grace of Christ. But some will refuse to be redeemed by the blood of Christ (D&C 76:82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus). These will therefore suffer for their own sins and obtain the glory of the Telestial. Some will be redeemed by faith and repentance through the blood of the Lamb, but having not been valiant in the testimony of Jesus, will obtain the glory of the Terrestrial (D&C 76:79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God). And some, having been valiant in the testimony of Jesus, will obtain the glory of the Celestial. 

How can someone in the Telestial Kingdom, who refused to be redeemed by the blood of Christ, be raised to the Terrestrial Kingdom, with those who accepted that redemption? 

 

 

 

[manol]

49 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The potential is not still there. In D&C 76:28-38 it is made very clear. One cannot change one's mind about it. One can never be trusted ever again. 

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come

Could something that can be called "eternal" from one perspective be "non-permanent" from another?  Sometimes the scriptures don't use words exactly the same way we would.  For instance, Alma did not remain permanently in "eternal torment": 

"My soul was racked with eternal torment; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more." - Alma the Younger, in Mosiah 27:29 

In any event making that judgment call is presumably above my pay grade.  All I can say is that I do not believe it is my calling to withhold forgiveness from anyone for anything.  D&C 64:10. 

 

[Stargazer]

On 7/13/2026 at 9:14 PM, The Nehor said:

If you were using Bing then repentance in sackcloth and ashes is the only remedy.

LOL!

On 7/13/2026 at 9:14 PM, The Nehor said:

I got that bit from Chapter 5 of the Lorenzo Snow student manual in the old Teachings of the Prophets series. They got if form the June 1919 issue of the old Improvement Magazine.

Thank you! 

I just finished reading that chapter online, and it was very enlightening. But the bit you quoted isn't there. I tried to track down the print version of the manual here at the house, but we don't have it. I'm not saying that your quote is spurious -- I think that they must have left that part out in the online version.

On 7/13/2026 at 9:14 PM, The Nehor said:

I am actually surprised you haven’t heard the story. I heard this quoted probably at least a dozen times growing up. I cut out the setup paragraph that was in the manual but all it does is provide the backstory of where Lorenzo Snow was and that he was watching children make clay spheres which….sounds really messy.

I was a convert at age 14 (the only one in my family at the time - my brother joined four years later), and attended church for only 6 months before we moved across the country, where I didn't know where church was. It wasn't until we moved again after 2 1/2 years, this time to England, that I started attending again. So I missed out entirely on Primary, and most of the youth program, what was called Mutual Improvement Association (MIA). There was much I didn't hear! 

[manol]

43 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You say you understand this, but if you think Moses 1:39 overcomes the rest of scripture, you are definitely not thinking straight.

Thank you for replying and giving me a chance to explain.

43 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

How can you imagine that everyone will eventually be exalted, no matter what they did? That sounds exactly like what Lucifer told Father... the Book of Nehor...

I'm not saying that at all.  I'm saying that God will never give up on anyone; that Christ's work is not in vain; that every single person will eventually do what they need to do; and that God will not turn them away when that happens.

Not sure this is a real category, but I'm what might be called a "long-path universalist".  I think we really do have to become the same manner of men and women as Christ, no short-cuts, no honorary degrees.  I think it is a very long path and that every one of us is somewhere on that path. 

 

Edited Wednesday at 05:30 PM by manol

[Stargazer]

20 minutes ago, manol said:

Could something that can be called "eternal" from one perspective be "non-permanent" from another?  Sometimes the scriptures don't use words exactly the same way we would.  For instance, Alma did not remain permanently in "eternal torment": 

"My soul was racked with eternal torment; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more." - Alma the Younger, in Mosiah 27:29 

It depends upon context. English is one of the world's richest languages, vocabulary-wise, but it doesn't always have different words for different connotations. For example, Greek has two words for love. We only have one. It has two words for punishment. We only have one. So we (and by extension God as well) have to make due with context. And sometimes we have to use a cop-out called a "term of art," by which we use a word in a restrictive sense rather than a universal sense. This is a word or phrase that has a precise, specialized meaning within a particular field or profession.

For example, in legislation in order to avoid repetition of a list of items, the list itself may use a defined "term of art" to include only a particular set of items, with only those items in the list being applicable. In the Revised Code of Washington (state), in the Title dealing with Fish and Wildlife, Section 77.08.030 creates a term of art called "Big game". The section lists the 11 species that are covered in the F&W law as "big game." Raccoons are not included in the list, so are not "big game."

I point this out because in D&C 19 the Lord explains "eternal" and/or "endless" as terms of art, as follows:

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

Alma was getting a "taste" of the eternal/God's punishment that could be meted out to him if he did not repent.

But sometimes "eternal" does mean without end. In D&C 76:112 concerning those who obtain the Telestial Kingdom:

And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

The term "worlds without end" seems to mean "eternal" in the sense of never ending.

20 minutes ago, manol said:

In any event making that judgment call is presumably above my pay grade.  All I can say is that I do not believe it is my calling to withhold forgiveness from anyone for anything.  D&C 64:10. 

Above my pay grade as well. I only know what the scriptures and revelation say.

The only persons you can forgive are those who have done wrong to you, or trespassed against you (as stated in the Lord's Prayer). 

[Stargazer]

40 minutes ago, manol said:

Thank you for replying and giving me a chance to explain.

I'm not saying that at all.  I'm saying that God will never give up on anyone; that Christ's work is not in vain; that every single person will eventually do what they need to do; and that God will not turn them away when that happens.

Not sure this is a real category, but I'm what might be called a "long-path universalist".  I think we really do have to become the same manner of men and women as Christ, no short-cuts, no honorary degrees.  I think it is a very long path and that every one of us is somewhere on that path. 

I think I can say that the only persons God has given up on are the Sons of Perdition. He makes it very clear that they are done for. 

Ultimately, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. And even the inhabitants of the Telestial Kingdom will enjoy a glory that we in mortality cannot comprehend; they will be ministered to by the Holy Ghost; and they will be servants of the most high.

[manol]

38 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

But sometimes "eternal" does mean without end. In D&C 76:112 concerning those who obtain the Telestial Kingdom:

And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

The term "worlds without end" seems to mean "eternal" in the sense of never ending.

Agreed, those in a Telestial state cannot come where God and Christ dwell.  <- I substituted the word "state" for "Kingdom", as I think it's more about who we have become.

In other words, I think the state of the individual says which Kingdom they are a part of. 

And I think that once a person has progressed to a higher state than the Telestial, there are no barriers to them being in a higher kingdom than the Telestial. 

Of course I could be wrong. 

 

27 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I think I can say that the only persons God has given up on are the Sons of Perdition. He makes it very clear that they are done for.

Again I could be wrong, but I think the controlling factor is the individual's state of progression.  I don't think God is into holding grievances and turning away the repentant.  

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I just finished reading that chapter online, and it was very enlightening. But the bit you quoted isn't there. I tried to track down the print version of the manual here at the house, but we don't have it. I'm not saying that your quote is spurious -- I think that they must have left that part out in the online version.

I just checked it on the website and in Gospel Library. Lorenzo snow Student manual. Sub-heading is “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them”

[Stargazer]

On 7/14/2026 at 6:22 AM, teddyaware said:

Doctrine and Covenants 76 reveals that ministers from the terrestrial kingdom and angels from the celestial kingdom minister to the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory, and that Christ himself personally ministers to the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom of glory. Further, our Bible Dictionary defines ministering as “conducting the work necessary for the salvation of mankind.” In light of these doctrinal truths, why do ordained and empowered ministers from higher kingdoms of glory minister to and instruct the inhabitants of lower kingdoms of glory

You, me, and our Bible Dictionary know what ministering means here. Neither you, me, nor our Bible Dictionary know what ministering means there. Again we come to the limitations of the English language. 

On 7/14/2026 at 6:22 AM, teddyaware said:

if there is no possibility for those in the lower kingdoms to eventually learn how to comply with the laws pertaining to higher kingdoms of glory, especially if the gospel of repentance continues to be the primary means provided by the Lord to facilitate spiritual growth and improvement? Surely you don’t believe said ministering is conducted in order to rub faces in past failures?

By the time one inherits a kingdom of glory, one has a perfect resurrected body, a body that is designed for the kingdom one has inherited (see 1 Cor 15:40-42) and one is well past repentance. Repentance is for those still living in faith. Once one is no longer separated from one's pre-existence memories, and has been resurrected, one is living in knowledge. One has nothing further to repent of. D&C 76 gives an incredibly detailed layout of the three degrees of glory, and there is not one indicator there, or anywhere else in scripture that one can promote from a lower kingdom of glory to a higher one.

This is particularly true of the Telestial Kingdom. In D&C 76:112 it says of them:

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

I emphasize the word "cannot." It doesn't say "they may not come," it says "they cannot come." They are not merely forbidden, they are unable. The sentence terminates with finality: "worlds without end." That seals the deal. There is no advancement. These are those who rejected the atonement of Christ, and suffered in their own resurrected bodies the punishment that Christ suffered. How can they then be promoted to the kingdom that Christ ministers to? 

You are a compassionate man. And you want for the sky to be limit for all of God's children. So do I, actually. No child left behind and all that. And there are many others who agree with you, including past general authorities, who were of a similar opinion. But none of them presented their hope of a universal exaltation as doctrine. I have read the scriptures, and they do not support that hope. 

In the 2023 General Conference, President Oaks said:

"We know from modern revelation that 'all kingdoms have a law given' and that the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to follow in our mortal journey. Under that loving plan, there are multiple kingdoms—many mansions—so that all of God’s children will inherit a kingdom of glory whose laws they can comfortably 'abide.'" [Kingdoms of Glory] <- that's a link to the talk...

President Oaks says "That word abide, so common in the scriptures, means a secure placement."

 

Edited Wednesday at 07:32 PM by Stargazer
improved formatting

[Stargazer]

49 minutes ago, manol said:

Agreed, those in a Telestial state cannot come where God and Christ dwell.  <- I substituted the word "state" for "Kingdom", as I think it's more about who we have become.

In other words, I think the state of the individual says which Kingdom they are a part of. 

And I think that once a person has progressed to a higher state than the Telestial, there are no barriers to them being in a higher kingdom than the Telestial. 

Of course I could be wrong. 

And so could I. 

But while I can concede there might be a chance for someone in the Terrestrial kingdom to advance to the Celestial, they could not ever reach the highest level of the Celestial. This is because that level requires eternal marriage, and having not been sealed to a spouse by the Holy Spirit of Promise before the resurrection, and as Jesus said, there is no marriage in the resurrection, so they cannot be exalted.

49 minutes ago, manol said:

Again I could be wrong, but I think the controlling factor is the individual's state of progression.  I don't think God is into holding grievances and turning away the repentant.  

This refers to Sons of Perdition, and in this case I think you are definitely wrong. They cannot repent. Here we're talking about those who sinned not in ignorance, but in knowledge The Lord says of them:

Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment. [D&C 76:44]

This makes it sound quite final. 

[Stargazer]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I just checked it on the website and in Gospel Library. Lorenzo snow Student manual. Sub-heading is “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them”

Finally found it! Thanks! It took me awhile, though. Sometimes the church website search facility is not very helpful.

What Pres. Snow said is not what I would call "doctrine" however. I still feel that the idea of Mormons getting their own planet is a caricature.
 

Edited Wednesday at 08:15 PM by Stargazer

[longview]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The potential is not still there. In D&C 76:28-38 it is made very clear. One cannot change one's mind about it. One can never be trusted ever again. 

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come

You are probably right on the permanence of this judgment. But my point still holds. Jesus did suffer completely for that reprobate. Including Lucifer and his angles.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I think I can say that the only persons God has given up on are the Sons of Perdition. He makes it very clear that they are done for. 

Ultimately, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. And even the inhabitants of the Telestial Kingdom will enjoy a glory that we in mortality cannot comprehend; they will be ministered to by the Holy Ghost; and they will be servants of the most high.

Are they done for because God has given up or because they choose to be in a state that God understands will always reject him?

Or something else we don’t understand because we are not yet masters of the human psyche and what drives behaviour.

[teddyaware]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Are they done for because God has given up or because they choose to be in a state that God understands will always reject him?

Or something else we don’t understand because we are not yet masters of the human psyche and what drives behaviour.

Doctrine and Covenants 76 testifies that by the time of the final judgement all but those found on the left hand of God (the sons of perdition) will confess on bended knee before the Father that Jesus Christ is Lord and receive forgiveness. But by the Lord’s own words of explanation, the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants Section 19 reveal a previously hidden mystery pertaining to those who will be found on the left hand of God at the final judgement.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

What I get out of verses 6 and 7 is that the Lord employs the dire expressions ‘endless torment’ and ‘endless damnation’ in order to put the fear of God into his rebellious and easily swayed children. But the fact is that verse 6 strongly suggests that the torment of those found on God’s left hand will in some undisclosed way eventually come to an end.  And then the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 76 warn us that there’s nobody on earth who knows all the intricacies and details pertaining to the plan of salvation. So at best all we can really say is we don’t know.

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

 

Edited yesterday at 12:07 PM by teddyaware

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Are they done for because God has given up or because they choose to be in a state that God understands will always reject him?

Good question. It was their choice. In the pre-existence the devil and his angels chose to rebel against the Father whom they knew to be the Father, whom they beheld as the Father. The Sons of Perdition who rebel against the same knowledge in mortality chose the same fate.

"Done for" is my crude English term for what is expressed in DC 76 as "[He] saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment".

They chose. 

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Or something else we don’t understand because we are not yet masters of the human psyche and what drives behaviour.

Maybe. Have you ever done something while asking yourself "Why am I doing this? This is wrong!" I remember getting very angry at someone once while at the same time my "inner self" was telling me something like "Oh, good grief, cut it out you idiot!" I'm not exactly sure who that "inner self" was, but I have the suspicion my anger was being directed by my "natural man." And the "inner self" was my eternal spirit reaching out to control that man. I'm usually very self-controlled, but sometimes, very rarely, I lose it. But even then I try to cover it up. 

I'm probably not even close to addressing what you wrote here.