Truth and Treason movie

[bsjkki]

This is a story coming to the big screen. It tells of the events during WW2. This is its synopsis on AMC. 
 

I think it will be hard to see a Bishop encouraging following the Nazi’s. We are taught to follow the law. We are also taught to do what is right let the consequence follow. What happens when they conflict? 
 

 

[bsjkki]

A review. 

 

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I think it will be hard to see a Bishop encouraging following the Nazi’s.

I believe what the bishop was trying to do was not have the church shut down by the government. 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I believe what the bishop was trying to do was not have the church shut down by the government. 

Probably, but it doesn’t really change the questions in the OP.  Is it ever ok to support evil for a good cause (also known as questioning whether the ends ever justify the means)?

[bsjkki]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Probably, but it doesn’t really change the questions in the OP.  Is it ever ok to support evil for a good cause (also known as questioning whether the ends ever justify the means)?

That seems to be the question. Was the Bishop afraid if they did not comply, the entire congregation would be killed? The excommunication was not done according to church standards and Helmuth was reinstated in 1946. I guess the movie leaves out the excommunication but it is included in the extended version. 
 

 

Edited October 13, 2025 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

55 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

That seems to be the question. Was the Bishop afraid if they did not comply, the entire congregation would be killed? The excommunication was not done according to church standards and Helmuth was reinstated in 1946. I guess the movie leaves out the excommunication but it is included in the extended version. 
 

 

He actually seemed to be a true believer and broke church standards by preaching loyalty to the regime from the pulpit. 

Edited October 13, 2025 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

Okay. This is interesting. From AI:  So that means information must be verified. 

"Arthur Zander was born in 1907 in Hamburg, Germany. Little is documented about his early life, but he converted to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) as an adult and rose to a leadership position within the church during the Nazi era. By 1939, he served as the branch president of the St. Georg Branch in Hamburg, the largest LDS congregation in the West German Mission at the time, with over 400 members. He lived in the suburb of Hamm with his wife and three sons, including his eldest, Ingo (born 1934), who was baptized in the branch's font in 1942.

Zander was a fervent supporter of the Nazi Party and integrated his political views into church activities, which created significant tension within the congregation. Eyewitness accounts describe him as a "devout National Socialist" who interrupted Sunday meetings to broadcast Adolf Hitler's speeches over the radio, sometimes locking members in until the broadcasts ended. He prayed for Hitler during services, displayed swastika flags in meeting rooms, and posted a "Juden verboten" (Jews forbidden) sign on the chapel door to comply with Nazi laws and potentially curry favor with local authorities. This led to the exclusion of at least one part-Jewish member, Salomon Schwarz, who was redirected to a neighboring branch. Some members viewed these actions as protective measures to avoid scrutiny from the regime, while others saw them as enthusiastic collaboration.

In 1942, following the arrest of teenage branch members Helmuth Hübener, Karl-Heinz Schnibbe, and Rudi Wobbe for distributing anti-Nazi leaflets (which they produced using church equipment), Zander moved quickly to distance the congregation from the scandal. He marked Hübener's membership record as "excommunicated" for treasonous behavior, an action co-signed by mission president Alando (Anthon) Huck but refused by district leader Otto Berndt. Schnibbe and Wobbe were also excommunicated shortly after their trial. Zander justified this as necessary to protect the branch from Gestapo reprisals and prove LDS loyalty to the regime. The excommunications were later reversed by the church's First Presidency in 1948, with Hübener reinstated posthumously.

In spring 1943, the St. Georg Branch meetinghouse was confiscated by the government, and Zander was drafted into the Wehrmacht (German army). He served in the Netherlands and later in France to counter the Allied D-Day invasion, where he was wounded and captured by American forces. He spent the remainder of the war as a prisoner of war in Oklahoma until late 1945. Meanwhile, his family's Hamburg apartment was destroyed in 1943 air raids, forcing his wife and sons to relocate to southern Germany for safety. Upon his release, Zander returned to Hamburg in 1946 to find his family living in dire conditions in a small garden shed without utilities. The St. Georg Branch was not reconstituted post-war, with survivors joining other Hamburg congregations.

Zander faced no trials or legal repercussions for his wartime actions, as was common for many low-level Nazi supporters in post-war denazification efforts. In the early 1950s, he emigrated to the United States and settled in Salt Lake City, Utah. Despite his controversial past, he was employed by the LDS Church for 19 years in administrative or support roles. He became known as the "father of organized soccer in Utah," founding children's soccer leagues and contributing significantly to youth sports in the area.

Zander died on June 2, 1989, from cancer at age 82. He is buried in Salt Lake City Cemetery. His obituary, likely family-submitted, highlighted his church employment and soccer contributions but omitted any mention of his Nazi-era role or actions, leading critics to describe it as "whitewashed." This has sparked ongoing discussions in LDS and historical circles about the church's handling of former Nazi collaborators, repentance, and institutional memory, drawing parallels to broader post-WWII reintegration of Germans."

[bsjkki]

Obituary:

Deseret News
Published: June 5, 1989 12:00 a.m.
The funeral for Arthur Zander, considered the father of organized soccer in Utah, will be June 6. He died June 2 of cancer at age 82.

Mr. Zander started playing soccer at age 6 in his native Hamburg, Germany, where he played for 39 years. He converted to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and moved to Utah in 1952 where he organized the Alemannia Soccer Club and the Berlin Soccer Club.He founded the Utah High School Soccer Association and introduced soccer to Brigham Young University and Salt Lake City's South High School, where he was South High's first soccer coach.


Mr. Zander also started the Arthur Zander Soccer Equipment Store, which he operated for more than 20 years from the basement of his home.

Funeral services will be held at noon at the Forest Dale Ward, 739 E. Ashton Ave. Friends may call Monday from 7-9 p.m. at the Mackay Deseret Mortuary, 36 E. Seventh South, and Tuesday at the chapel one hour before funeral services. Interment will be in the Salt Lake City Cemetery.

 

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I believe what the bishop was trying to do was not have the church shut down by the government. 

He went way too far to make that realistically believable. There is compliance with a murderous regime and then there is enthusiasm for it. He was enthusiastic.

The Church Mission Presidents were a little too enthusiastic about getting along with the changing regimes in Europe. There was a big push to dust off the 12th Article of Faith as a rationale for compliance. Even after the war Hubener was not loved by many of the German saints, some of whom did some terrible things.

Arnold Schwarzenegger said this about his childhood. He grew up in Austria and was born in 1947:

Quote

 

“Growing up, I was surrounded by broken men drinking away their guilt over their participation in the most evil regime in history. Not all of them were rabid anti-Semites or Nazis. Many just went along step-by-step down the road. They were the people next door.”

“Now, I’ve never shared this so publicly because it is a painful memory. But my father would come home drunk once or twice a week, and he would scream and hit us and scare my mother. I did not hold him totally responsible because our neighbor was doing the same thing to his family and so was the next neighbor over. I heard it with my own ears and saw it with my own eyes. They were in physical pain from the shrapnel in their bodies and in emotional pain from what they saw or did.”

“It all started with lies, and lies, and lies, and intolerance.”

 

The damage that comes from compliance can be devastating. After the war many of the German saints resented Hubener for taking another path.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This is a story coming to the big screen. It tells of the events during WW2. This is its synopsis on AMC. 
 

I think it will be hard to see a Bishop encouraging following the Nazi’s. We are taught to follow the law. We are also taught to do what is right let the consequence follow. What happens when they conflict? 
 

 

I read a book about Helmuth Hübener 15-20 years ago and yes, what the bishop was like really bothered me.  Through the years though I have seen that so many people get blinded by many biases. Really good people and people you  think should be good. And of course I am one who is also blinded by bad biases and I make bad choices from them too.  I think it is especially easy when we think we have knowedge that other people don't have.  That is not to say that I think everyone would be a nazi sympathizer, just that we really need to take a step back to help us not be blindly biased and hurting people.

[Kevin Christensen]

Yes, but Hubner's story happened in far off Nazi Germany in the 1940s.  What possible relevance could it have in an America that is, by the convenient doctrine of ideological exceptionalism, exceptional in all ways and therefore should never be criticized, and has Democratically elected leaders who are necessarily exceptional and moral and above reproach, never ever behave or speak or act like those terrible fascists in 30s and 40s Germany and Italy, except according to the dictionary and history, which, as George Orwell reminded us, does not matter in the least, because, "Who reads Orwell?"  Clearly not the President!  I am only glad my father died before I, as a loyal American would have to report him as being in a formal Antifa organization, in the 813th Tank Destroyer Battalion, attached to the 34th Infantry Division in North Africa, engaged in unquestioned Antifa activities, and then, attached to the 79th Infantry Division engaged in more Antifa activities through Normandy, the Breakout and drive towards Paris, up through Belgium, down to the 7th Army and the Voges campaign, and then the terrible Nordwind battles at Hatten and Ritterschoffen, and finally, attached to the 101st Airborne for more Antifa activities into Austria and Berchtesgaden. 

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Tooele, UT

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

He went way too far to make that realistically believable. There is compliance with a murderous regime and then there is enthusiasm for it. He was enthusiastic.

The Church Mission Presidents were a little too enthusiastic about getting along with the changing regimes in Europe. There was a big push to dust off the 12th Article of Faith as a rationale for compliance. Even after the war Hubener was not loved by many of the German saints, some of whom did some terrible things.

Arnold Schwarzenegger said this about his childhood. He grew up in Austria and was born in 1947:

The damage that comes from compliance can be devastating. After the war many of the German saints resented Hubener for taking another path.

Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning is a haunting book about how the Nazis got basically “decent” men to do unimaginable acts of evil for them.  The book also goes into detail about the psychological effects of such compliance.  Notably, it also discusses the exceptions and how compliance was not the only choice; it was just the path of least resistance.

But it definitely had a cost.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning is a haunting book about how the Nazis got basically “decent” men to do unimaginable acts of evil for them.  The book also goes into detail about the psychological effects of such compliance.  Notably, it also discusses the exceptions and how compliance was not the only choice; it was just the path of least resistance.

But it definitely had a cost.

I think a lot of us think we will be the exception, but so often the numbers say we won't be. Does the book tell how to be the exception?

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

I think a lot of us think we will be the exception, but so often the numbers say we won't be. Does the book tell how to be the exception?

It's focus is historical, so not overtly. 

But it teaches some good lessons about human psychology.  It outlines exactly what you've said--we all think we'd be the exception but most of us wouldn't be.  Not because we are evil but because we are built to justify immorality when it serves us. 

These men agreed to do these horrible things for a lot of different reasons but mostly it was a weird combination of their sense of community, personal obligation to each other, and self-centeredness. They didn't want to stand out, they wanted to be supportive of each other and bear their share of the weight (knowing that if they refused the guy next to them would have to do more), and they wanted the perks for themselves and their communities that compliance provided.  Because they were being asked to harm a group that they had sufficiently 'othered' for generations, the cost to be the exception didn't really make sense.  It would be like hurting your own family to save the life of a horse.  

(a side note--The nazis had wanted these polish officers to shoot all the Jewish people in their communities (thousands of Jewish people) one by one, but the men couldn't do it more than a few times without breaking down.  They couldn't give them enough alcohol to get them to do it face to face like they had planned.  But the nazis came up with less personal ways to kill the Jewish people, so most of the soldiers adapted and continued to comply.  Some refused after initially participating though and for the most part, they were allowed to without much pushback.)

My takeaway (read in between the lines) of these men's story is that to be the exception you have to be willing to stand out among your peers, you have to have a firm sense of the worth of everyone (you can have no enemies, no 'othering' of people who are different), and you have to be willing to suffer, often for people you don't know and who you can't save anyway.

It's hard to suffer for strangers.  If we haven't developed a strong sense of morality and Christ-like love for all, most of us would never do it.  We will choose ourselves every time.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

often for people you don't know and who you can't save anyway.

It's hard to suffer for strangers.  If we haven't developed a strong sense of morality and Christ-like love for all, most of us would never do it.  We will choose ourselves every time.

It would be very easy to rationalize that since the victims were going to die even if you tried to do something, it would be better to live so you can protect those you can do something about…accept a little evil to do a lot of good.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's focus is historical, so not overtly. 

But it teaches some good lessons about human psychology.  It outlines exactly what you've said--we all think we'd be the exception but most of us wouldn't be.  Not because we are evil but because we are built to justify immorality when it serves us. 

These men agreed to do these horrible things for a lot of different reasons but mostly it was a weird combination of their sense of community, personal obligation to each other, and self-centeredness. They didn't want to stand out, they wanted to be supportive of each other and bear their share of the weight (knowing that if they refused the guy next to them would have to do more), and they wanted the perks for themselves and their communities that compliance provided.  Because they were being asked to harm a group that they had sufficiently 'othered' for generations, the cost to be the exception didn't really make sense.  It would be like hurting your own family to save the life of a horse.  

(a side note--The nazis had wanted these polish officers to shoot all the Jewish people in their communities (thousands of Jewish people) one by one, but the men couldn't do it more than a few times without breaking down.  They couldn't give them enough alcohol to get them to do it face to face like they had planned.  But the nazis came up with less personal ways to kill the Jewish people, so most of the soldiers adapted and continued to comply.  Some refused after initially participating though and for the most part, they were allowed to without much pushback.)

My takeaway (read in between the lines) of these men's story is that to be the exception you have to be willing to stand out among your peers, you have to have a firm sense of the worth of everyone (you can have no enemies, no 'othering' of people who are different), and you have to be willing to suffer, often for people you don't know and who you can't save anyway.

It's hard to suffer for strangers.  If we haven't developed a strong sense of morality and Christ-like love for all, most of us would never do it.  We will choose ourselves every time.

And some of them supported or voted for the fascists because they thought it would serve their own ends and could be controlled and hoped that it wouldn’t be “that bad”.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

And some of them supported or voted for the fascists because they thought it would serve their own ends and could be controlled and hoped that it wouldn’t be “that bad”.

This book specifically is about polish police officers who were commandeered (for lack of a better term) by the nazis when the nazis took Poland. So they didn’t get to vote on it. But I think your point stands. Many were ok with following the nazi regime because they were promised power and other things for doing so.  They already didn’t really like Jewish people, so the leap wasn’t that far. 

[sunstoned]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And some of them supported or voted for the fascists because they thought it would serve their own ends and could be controlled and hoped that it wouldn’t be “that bad”.

Many lessons can be learned by reading history.

[longview]

On 10/13/2025 at 5:08 PM, Kevin Christensen said:

Yes, but Hubner's story happened in far off Nazi Germany in the 1940s.  What possible relevance could it have in an America that is, by the convenient doctrine of ideological exceptionalism, exceptional in all ways and therefore should never be criticized, and has Democratically elected leaders who are necessarily exceptional and moral and above reproach, never ever behave or speak or act like those terrible fascists in 30s and 40s Germany and Italy, except according to the dictionary and history, which, as George Orwell reminded us, does not matter in the least, because, "Who reads Orwell?"  Clearly not the President!  I am only glad my father died before I, as a loyal American would have to report him as being in a formal Antifa organization, in the 813th Tank Destroyer Battalion, attached to the 34th Infantry Division in North Africa, engaged in unquestioned Antifa activities, and then, attached to the 79th Infantry Division engaged in more Antifa activities through Normandy, the Breakout and drive towards Paris, up through Belgium, down to the 7th Army and the Voges campaign, and then the terrible Nordwind battles at Hatten and Ritterschoffen, and finally, attached to the 101st Airborne for more Antifa activities into Austria and Berchtesgaden. 

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Tooele, UT

 

[MiserereNobis]

In the trailer, the bishop is wearing red (0:16 of the video). Was that common thing back then? Or are they just putting on some clerical vestments to make it obvious that he's a church leader.

It's interesting that the LDS church isn't mentioned in any of the trailers or ads.

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

In the trailer, the bishop is wearing red (0:16 of the video). Was that common thing back then? Or are they just putting on some clerical vestments to make it obvious that he's a church leader.

It's interesting that the LDS church isn't mentioned in any of the trailers or ads.

I think it is probaby because mentioning it would limit the viewers  - people would tend to see it as a pro or anti mormon video verses a movie about someone who fought against the nazis. 

[MiserereNobis]

Wow, I'm reading through the comments section for the YouTube trailer and there are so many people who are saying this is pro-Israel propaganda. Not one mention of the LDS church.

And there are a lot of pro-Nazi comments, like the Axis was great, Nazi German was wonderful, etc.

@The Nehor, get in those comments and start punching people  

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Wow, I'm reading through the comments section for the YouTube trailer and there are so many people who are saying this is pro-Israel propaganda. Not one mention of the LDS church.

And there are a lot of pro-Nazi comments, like the Axis was great, Nazi German was wonderful, etc.

@The Nehor, get in those comments and start punching people  

Scary, maybe I better not go, if those people like it. Did read something recently that the youth, young men actually, are turning into Hitler lovers. I saw many comments coming out of the mouths by way of comments on some site, not sure. It's insane. ETA: Saw this about the messages I thought I'd share, if it's okay, hopefully. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-young-gop-club-members-00592146

Edited October 15, 2025 by Tacenda

[Kevin Christensen]

10 hours ago, longview said:

 

No discussion of the point of Antifa.  A definition of Fascism and a discussion of why Antifa might seem relevant in America today.  Scapegoating, and presumed guilt by association, along with an assumed, not demonstrated, narrative regarding the protests after yet another black man was killed by police on camera.  By far, most of the black lives matter protests and protesters in 2020 were non-violent.  Paradigms are established and political narratives are controlled by means of which examples are taken as representative.  Exceptions are, by definition, not representative.  Lies are by definition not representative of reality.  (Consider the recent presidential claim that Biden, though not yet president, sent FBI agents to instigate the Jan. 6th 2021 assault on the Capitol, and therefore Biden is to blame).  Lies do not represent reality.  Establishing paradigms by use of non-representative examples, is, by definition, a distortion.  Statistically and factually, right-wing violence occurs far more often in the US than left-wing violence.   Sure, one can find instances, but which are most representative versus, which can be exploited by powers that be to control a narrative?

Fascism defined.

Key characteristics of fascism include:
Dictatorial leadership: Power is concentrated in a single leader who is presented as infallible. (Only I can save you.)
Militarism and nationalism: It glorifies the military and prioritizes extreme, often exclusionary, nationalism.
Suppression of opposition: Any form of dissent is violently suppressed, and basic human rights are disregarded.
Belief in hierarchy: Fascism promotes a rigid social structure and the rule of elites, in opposition to democracy and liberalism.
Scapegoating and victimization: It identifies internal and external "enemies" to unify the populace and focuses on a narrative of national decline or humiliation.
Control of media: The government seeks to control mass media and promote myths and lies to control the narrative.
Intertwined religion and government: In fascist states, government and religion are often merged, and business interests are protected.
Glorification of violence: Violence is often glorified as a means of achieving national goals. 

Why does Glen Beck not bother to define and discuss fascism before setting out to discredit and demonize Antifa?   What would happen to his message if he dared to do so?  (Remember when Beck temporarily experimented with being critical of Trumpism?  Was it good for his business?  How did he respond to market pressure?  I grew up with a copy of the book Profiles in Courage in my house.  Now days, it is much easier to find Profiles in Spinelessness and Accommodation.)  Is it possible to discuss the definition of fascism and then to explain current US politics as though none of this has any relevance?  Is is possible to define fascism and then declare, there is no need for Antifa because fascism poses no real threat to US democracy?  Are the No Kings protests this Saturday a manifestation of terrorism or patriotism?

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Tooele, UT

 

[longview]

4 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Is is possible to define fascism and then declare, there is no need for Antifa because fascism poses no real threat to US democracy? 

Antifa claim to be anti-fascists but they behave in a very thuggish way just like the brown-shirts of the 1930's. ICE is upholding a long-standing law in removing criminal aliens but is subject to radical attacks despite that fact that the previous five presidents deported far more aliens than the current president is doing.

Notice how antifa assaults and BLM riotings almost exclusively occur in democrat controlled areas (the police are forced to soft-pedal or ignore excessive or criminal behavior or vandalism or burning down establishments). Yet the Legacy Media had the audacity to call it a "peaceful protest". When Charlie Kirk was murdered, there was NO rioting in conservative areas (in fact nowhere, only quiet peaceful prayers and vigils). That makes you and me fundamentally different!

4 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Are the No Kings protests this Saturday a manifestation of terrorism or patriotism?

These No Kings protests are merely tantrums by the LEFT to denounce the Trump administration. Conservatives and patriots are actually demonized for upholding the Constitution (especially for advocating original intent interpretations) and supporting traditional family values and morality. For this they are called fascists? Trump fully supports the separation of powers between the three branches of government. He is always cooperative in addressing court challenges.

40 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

(Consider the recent presidential claim that Biden, though not yet president, sent FBI agents to instigate the Jan. 6th 2021 assault on the Capitol, and therefore Biden is to blame).

You need to show the actual reference about the "presidential claim". Most people know that it was Pelosi that orchestrated the "counter-revolution" against the patriots. Remember Ray Epps, Officer Byrd, and the 250 undercover FBI agents and many others desperately trying to make it look like a "for-real" insurrection. NONE of the patriots were carrying guns on that day!