Does anyone know what time the Rapture starts today?

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, Emily said:

Maybe that's why He's going to gather up His real followers to meet Him in the clouds before He heads to Earth...He needs a nice cushion of people to prevent all His other followers (the ones who didn't absorb the golden rule lessons very well) from trying to oust Him from the country because His skin is brown

Since you made it political...

No one is trying to remove people from our country for being "brown", they are being removed for entering our country illegally- whether they are brown, black, yellow, or even... white.

[gopher]

5 hours ago, Emily said:

I really hope President Nelson doesn't attempt to pinpoint any exact date. That would make him a false prophet. Christ said even He didn't know when He would be back, only God had that information. That may have changed at this point, He has a broader view of the world now, but I lean toward the theory that only God knows, because He's the one that will pick the time. And it will be based on our behavior, not at some pre-determined hour or day. In other words, when it happens is flexible. Certain things have to happen first and certain conditions will be present, then God says, "Ok, now."

I could be wrong, but that's been my general impression. I'm willing to accept counter arguments. 

He would be a false prophet if he revealed the day or hour.  But what if he knows the week, month, or year?  That would be pretty cool if he let us know.  It would give me plenty of time to repent, starting with deleting all my sarcastic and rude posts here.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

He would be a false prophet if he revealed the day or hour.  But what if he knows the week, month, or year?  That would be pretty cool if he let us know.  It would give me plenty of time to repent, starting with deleting all my sarcastic and rude posts here.

"Christ says no man knoweth the day or the hour when the Son of Man cometh (Matt 24:36). …Did Christ speak this as a general principle throughout all generations? Oh no, he spoke in the present tense. No man that was then living upon the footstool of God knew the day or the hour. But he did not say that there was no man throughout all generations that should not know the day or the hour. No for this would be in flat contradiction with other scripture for the prophet (Amos 3:7) says that God will do nothing but what he will reveal unto his Servants the prophets."

Joseph Smith

Date: 6 April 1843 Source: James Burgess Notebook.  The Words of Joseph Smith: Page 180

[Zosimus]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

No one is trying to remove people from our country for being "brown", they are being removed for entering our country illegally- whether they are brown, black, yellow, or even... white.

I think the joke is that Jesus wouldn't be able to enter our country legally, because he was born in Palestine and would have a Palestinian passport. Its incredibly difficult if not impossible these days for Palestinian passport holders to get visas to America:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-refusing-visas-to-palestinian-passport-holders-in-unannounced-policy/

So if Jesus tried to enter America on a Palestinian passport without a visa, he'd be illegal, and deported

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Zosimus said:

I think the joke is that Jesus wouldn't be able to enter our country legally, because he was born in Palestine and would have a Palestinian passport. Its incredibly difficult if not impossible these days for Palestinian passport holders to get visas to America:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-refusing-visas-to-palestinian-passport-holders-in-unannounced-policy/

So if Jesus tried to enter America on a Palestinian passport without a visa, he'd be illegal, and deported

Interesting... I believe He, being Jewish, would actually have an Israeli passport and thus be perfectly able to enter.

Why do you say He would have a Palestinian passport?

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Why do you say He would have a Palestinian passport?

Apparently Bethlehem is in the West Bank so location of his birth might give him Palestinian citizenship, but ethnicity would be Jewish.  This would allow him to immigrate and apply for Israeli citizenship if he so desired.  Give it a few more years and the growing Israeli settlements will possibly grow large enough to engulf the city, which would give him Israeli citizenship if birth location only mattered, not time period.

Edited September 25, 2025 by Calm

[Zosimus]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Interesting... I believe He, being Jewish, would actually have an Israeli passport and thus be perfectly able to enter.

Aliyah only applies to children of Jewish parents that have not converted to another religion. Jesus, I would assume, has converted to Christianity. As a Messianic Jew, Jesus is not entitled to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. (source)

"Supreme Court decisions regarding the right to immigrate to Israel after conversion, most notably Beresford (1987) and Kendall (1990) determined that a Messianic Jew is considered to be a Christian. Therefore, a Messianic Jew is considered a “member of another religion”, and not entitled to making Aliyah after conversion to Christianity....Despite the different theoretical approaches, both judges reached the same conclusion – a Messianic Jew (ie, the child of a Jewish mother who believes that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel) is of “another religion” rather than Judaism. Justice Alon supported his claims with sources in Judaic tradition, which claim that a “convert” is not part of the Jewish people, and therefore is not entitled to join the Jewish state. Justice Barak expressed his opinion that even according to a secular outlook there is general agreement that “a Jew who believes in Jesus” is no longer a Jew, according to the national meaning of the term."

Until Jesus denies that he is the Messiah, he will be issued a Palestinian passport. As of September 2025 Jesus will not be allowed to leave the West Bank (source), nor will he be allowed a visa to America (source)

Edited September 25, 2025 by Zosimus

[JVW]

19 hours ago, Emily said:

People make themselves look foolish all on their own. Conspiracies are rarely involved. 😄

On a tangent, I believe that conspiracies are involved more often than not. Truth really is stranger than fiction, and the more I learn about what secret organizations do to manipulate and control public opinion, the more crazy life appears. But I digress, I didn't quote you to respond to this part.

19 hours ago, Emily said:

I lean toward the theory that only God knows, because He's the one that will pick the time. And it will be based on our behavior, not at some pre-determined hour or day. In other words, when it happens is flexible. Certain things have to happen first and certain conditions will be present, then God says, "Ok, now."

I could be wrong, but that's been my general impression. I'm willing to accept counter arguments. 

I agree with you and I believe that the moment God chooses to return will be the exact moment at which agency no longer exists among the human race. I believe that the mark of the beast will be willingly accepted by the vast majority of mankind and that, in order to receive the mark, the currency traded is the person's agency. The Bible plainly states that in order to participate in the economy (i.e. pay bills, buy groceries, etc.) one will need to have the mark. The tug-of-war in politics and in the world stage is the choice between freedom and security, and the mark will offer the ultimate security in exchange for the user's freedom.

An example of an exchange of something other than currency for access to a service is the price to use Facebook. The amount of money Facebook makes, per user per year, from a user's data (which is a privacy/freedom related currency) is ~$13 per user. If given the choice between a user paying a dollar a month to use FB, or to have "free" access to the service in exchange for privacy how many would choose to pay to protect their right to privacy? If FB didn't offer a choice and suddenly changed their model to a paid subscription model, do you think FB would be able to stay in business?

[Stargazer]

14 hours ago, Zosimus said:

I think the joke is that Jesus wouldn't be able to enter our country legally, because he was born in Palestine and would have a Palestinian passport. Its incredibly difficult if not impossible these days for Palestinian passport holders to get visas to America:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-refusing-visas-to-palestinian-passport-holders-in-unannounced-policy/

So if Jesus tried to enter America on a Palestinian passport without a visa, he'd be illegal, and deported

 

12 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Interesting... I believe He, being Jewish, would actually have an Israeli passport and thus be perfectly able to enter.

Why do you say He would have a Palestinian passport?

 

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Apparently Bethlehem is in the West Bank so location of his birth might give him Palestinian citizenship, but ethnicity would be Jewish.  This would allow him to immigrate and apply for Israeli citizenship if he so desired.  Give it a few more years and the growing Israeli settlements will possibly grow large enough to engulf the city, which would give him Israeli citizenship if birth location only mattered, not time period.

 

10 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Aliyah only applies to children of Jewish parents that have not converted to another religion. Jesus, I would assume, has converted to Christianity. As a Messianic Jew, Jesus is not entitled to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. (source)

"Supreme Court decisions regarding the right to immigrate to Israel after conversion, most notably Beresford (1987) and Kendall (1990) determined that a Messianic Jew is considered to be a Christian. Therefore, a Messianic Jew is considered a “member of another religion”, and not entitled to making Aliyah after conversion to Christianity....Despite the different theoretical approaches, both judges reached the same conclusion – a Messianic Jew (ie, the child of a Jewish mother who believes that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel) is of “another religion” rather than Judaism. Justice Alon supported his claims with sources in Judaic tradition, which claim that a “convert” is not part of the Jewish people, and therefore is not entitled to join the Jewish state. Justice Barak expressed his opinion that even according to a secular outlook there is general agreement that “a Jew who believes in Jesus” is no longer a Jew, according to the national meaning of the term."

Until Jesus denies that he is the Messiah, he will be issued a Palestinian passport. As of September 2025 Jesus will not be allowed to leave the West Bank (source), nor will he be allowed a visa to America (source)

Good grief. 

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Screen doors on submarines. Who is buried in Grant's Tomb? If an airplane crashes on the border between the US and Canada, where do they bury the survivors?

 

[gopher]

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

"Christ says no man knoweth the day or the hour when the Son of Man cometh (Matt 24:36). …Did Christ speak this as a general principle throughout all generations? Oh no, he spoke in the present tense. No man that was then living upon the footstool of God knew the day or the hour. But he did not say that there was no man throughout all generations that should not know the day or the hour. No for this would be in flat contradiction with other scripture for the prophet (Amos 3:7) says that God will do nothing but what he will reveal unto his Servants the prophets."

Joseph Smith

Date: 6 April 1843 Source: James Burgess Notebook.  The Words of Joseph Smith: Page 180

Ok, then.  This is the last time I'll ever believe Emily.  She just sounded so confident in her post talking about President Nelson.

[Emily]

49 minutes ago, gopher said:

Ok, then.  This is the last time I'll ever believe Emily.  She just sounded so confident in her post talking about President Nelson.

Bah, I did say things might have changed and I'm open to counter arguments. I've actually never seen that quote before, or at least didn't remember it if I did. I will have to pursue the new information. 😊

[Zosimus]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Good grief. 

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Screen doors on submarines. Who is buried in Grant's Tomb? If an airplane crashes on the border between the US and Canada, where do they bury the survivors?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Screen doors on submarines. Who is buried in Grant's Tomb? If an airplane crashes on the border between the US and Canada, where do they bury the survivors?

When one is looking for something to occupy the mind, such questions/ideas are welcomed.  I learned a few new things in doing the research as well.

Edited September 26, 2025 by Calm

[Emily]

InCognitus found a source for the quote https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/discourse-6-april-1843-b-as-reported-by-james-burgess/1

It's actually kind of amusing because it looks like this might be a response to critics telling the prophet that he can't predict the day or time of Christ's coming.

Read in context through to the paragraphs following, "Read Mathew 24 Chap andall the Prophets. He says then shall theythey see the sign of the coming of the Son ofMan in the clouds of Heaven. How are wewe to see it ans[wer], As the lighting up of the morning or the dawning of the morning cometh from the east and Shineth unto the west— So also is the coming of the Son of Man. The dawning of the morning makes its appearance in the east and moves along gradualys[o] also will the comeing of the Son of Man be. [p. [7]]"

Which doesn't sound like a prophet saying, "He'll be coming on November 15 at Midnight."

It sounds more like what we actually experience now... The prophet warns it is closer because the conditions required are being met. So at least for now, I'm going to assume President Nelson isn't going to be sending out "Save the Date" notices. 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2025 by Emily

[blackstrap]

If only Joseph had lived to be 85 yo. 😏

[InCognitus]

32 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

If only Joseph had lived to be 85 yo. 😏

I think the Lord was just trying to get him to stop pestering him on the subject  

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, blackstrap said:

If only Joseph had lived to be 85 yo. 😏

If the Saints had been obedient to what the Prophet Joseph taught perhaps he wouldn't have been taken, would've lived to 1890, and the Saints would've been qualified to welcome Him back at that time?

But they weren't, so we won't know what could've been until all is revealed.

(Interesting side note: Some Fundamentalists believe that the supposed "1886 Meeting" fulfilled the prophecy.)

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

When one is looking for something to occupy the mind, such questions/ideas are welcomed.  I learned a few new things in doing the research as well.

I found intriguing the idea that Jesus might have been giving some leeway to prophets two millennia thence, that of knowing the day and the hour. But not the ones that were around in his time.

[gopher]

15 hours ago, Emily said:

Bah, I did say things might have changed and I'm open to counter arguments. I've actually never seen that quote before, or at least didn't remember it if I did. I will have to pursue the new information. 😊

I apologize for teasing you.  I'm just bitter since I quit my job, sold my house and car, and donated all the money to the animal shelter...  and then the rapture didn't happen.  Time to start over, again.

[manol]

Jesus did not fulfill the consensus expectations believers in his day had about the Messiah.  He did not defeat and overthrow the enemies of the Jewish people.  He did not establish a Davidic kingdom.  He did not double down on the Law of Moses.  He did not vindicate the Jewish religion.  He did not establish an era of universal peace.

On the other hand, he did teach a new and higher paradigm which replaced the Law of Moses, and he expected individuals to be fully participatory in that new and higher paradigm.  And he did not use force; he came to fulfill, not destroy. 

I think today's consensus expectations of what the Return of Christ will look like may well be just as mistaken as those of believers at the time of Jesus.  It seems to me that many of the consensus beliefs about the Return of Christ do not actually have the effect of making us more Christ-like, either individually or collectively.

I would not be surprised if the Return of Christ turns out to be about a new and higher paradigm (or state of being) we are invited to participate in, rather than about a choreographed series of geopolitical mass-casualty events.

 

Edited September 26, 2025 by manol

[The Nehor]

On 9/24/2025 at 6:22 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Since you made it political...

No one is trying to remove people from our country for being "brown", they are being removed for entering our country illegally- whether they are brown, black, yellow, or even... white.

This is incorrect. They are being arrested for the color of their skin. The Supreme Court decided that this is cool and good. If they can prove their citizenship or residency (while still in detention which makes it difficult) they might be released. Sometimes they even get to keep the evidence of their legal status if they are lucky. Sometimes they just don’t get it back.

[JLHPROF]

On 9/25/2025 at 9:48 PM, blackstrap said:

If only Joseph had lived to be 85 yo. 😏

That would have been 1890.

Interesting.

[teddyaware]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This is incorrect. They are being arrested for the color of their skin. The Supreme Court decided that this is cool and good. If they can prove their citizenship or residency (while still in detention which makes it difficult) they might be released. Sometimes they even get to keep the evidence of their legal status if they are lucky. Sometimes they just don’t get it back.

Oh I get it now! The fact that they entered the country illegally, and then committed all kinds of proven serious crimes while here, are just flimsy but convenient pretexts to cover up for the real reason why they’re being deported — they have dark skin! (Sarcasm off)

It’s most illuminating to see that you used the first “they” in your paragraph to engage in a deceptive attempt to falsely assert that all those being arrested and deported are here legally, but that some of these legal residents got caught up in the sad and unfair position of not being given enough time to prove their legal status before being unjustly expelled. This is a textbook example of the kind chicanery dishonest propagandists engage in when the plain, honest truth isn’t on their side.

Edited September 27, 2025 by teddyaware

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

That would have been 1890.

Interesting.

The same year as the Manifesto, the Fundamentalists would point out.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Oh I get it now! The fact that they entered the country illegally, and then committed all kinds of proven serious crimes while here, are just flimsy but convenient pretexts to cover up for the real reason why they’re being deported — they have dark skin! (Sarcasm off)

Over half of the people currently detained by ICE have committed no crime. And no being in the US without documentation is not a crime. It is a misdemeanor. The current policy is institutionalized cruelty.

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

It’s most illuminating to see that you used the first “they” in your paragraph to engage in a deceptive attempt to falsely assert that all those being arrested and deported are here legally, but that some of these legal residents got caught up in the sad and unfair position of not being given enough time to prove their legal status before being unjustly expelled. This is a textbook example of the kind chicanery dishonest propagandists engage in when the plain, honest truth isn’t on their side.

Or you could read the actual accounts of legal residents and citizens being scooped up to meet the current exorbitant arrest quotas being set by the administration and stop making up fairy tales that justify cruely. Or read about the inhumane conditions being utilized to hold them that are unjust no matter who you detain.

It is worth noting that in the Holocaust the German people were not told what was going on in them. They were called transit or work camps and the like. Propaganda was spread portraying them as humane or temporary and insisting they were filled with hardened criminals. You would have fit right in with the German populace justifying them and calling any attempt to portray them as monstrous to be false. Now, they are not as bad as the concentration camps in the Third Reich got in the end. Currently they are more like they were at the beginning. Hopefully they won’t get that bad. If they do though would you even know about it?