The war in heaven

[GoCeltics]

12 hours ago, BCSpace said:

Perhaps there are multiple batches, one each for a different world, and what we read in the scriptures is only regarding the batch for this earth.

Would each world get a different ratio from our earth (different from one-third) of those who became angels to the devil?

[GoCeltics]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

So we shift this, and say, well the "third part" doesn't mean a third - it must mean something else. And then we have a different problem (which we are discussing in another thread) because if there is a third part, then there must be two other parts (even though no text ever speaks of a second part - part of the reason why such an interpretation doesn't work with Revelation). And that second part must be the fence-sitters - and so we invent a theology that explains slavery

Which text explains the first part or slavery for a second part?

[ZealouslyStriving]

29 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

Were spirit children committing evil as the devil was tempting them in their celestial home when they lived with the Father?

"Committing evil" as in transgressing or sinning? Apparently. A third part/portion (what have you) did get exiled.

[Stargazer]

On 6/29/2025 at 5:12 AM, blackstrap said:

So, it was possible for a spirit to rebel against God and follow Satan. I wonder if it is possible for a fallen angel to change and rebel against Satan and apply for a return to God , or is it one and done? Seems to me that God is big on giving second chances to those here in mortality. 

The second chances you speak of are for those who only sin in ignorance. There is no second chance for those who sin against knowledge. And those who rebelled in the pre-existence rebelled against knowledge, not ignorance. They knew who God was; they saw Him at work. It is the same for those who did keep their first estate, but later kept not their second, who sinned against knowledge in mortality. D&C 17:30-49 is very clear that there is no second chance for them. Neither those who rebelled against God in the pre-existence, nor for those who did so in mortality.  Verses 36 and 37 say "These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;"

So it seems that those who rebelled against the light in mortality will also lose their resurrection (the second death) and be just the same as those who were among the third of spirits who rebelled in the pre-existence. It seems that God cannot ever trust those who rebel against knowledge.

Edited June 30, 2025 by Stargazer

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

Which text explains the first part or slavery for a second part?

That was the whole idea about the fence-sitters that started in 1845. Orson Hyde, for example, said this in a general priesthood meeting on April 27, 1845:

Quote

Now, it would seem cruel to force pure celestial spirits into the world through the lineage of Canaan that had been cursed. This would be ill appropriate, putting the precious and the vile together. But those spirits in heaven that rather lent an influence to the devil, thinking he had a little the best right to govern, but did not take a very active part any way were required to come into the world and take bodies in the accursed lineage of Canaan; and hence the negro or African race.

Orson Pratt's view was taken up and championed (and modified a bit) by Parley P. Pratt. These ideas persisted. And when the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978, they were directly addressed:

Quote

Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.

So we had these three groups - those who supported Jehovah, those who opposed Him, and those "did not take a very active part".

 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

What good or bad choice(s) did those spirit children born after the war make to come to earth to obtain a physical body or fail to get a body?

Since these spirit children were born after the war, they would not have made choices affecting their involvement in the war we experienced. Their opportunities for development, council, war, mortality, etc. may yet be future or under development while ours have been and are already at play.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

It's kind of like suggesting that the Tree of life is a mango tree, since the fruit is the most desirable above all other fruit.

And then going off on how it being mango teaches us we need to have a solid center because it has a stone, etc….

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Nofear said:

All I did, apparently to get your ire up was

Intensity is not always ire.  If it was, I would be known in my home as an angry old woman.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

So it seems that those who rebelled against the light in mortality will also lose their resurrection (the second death) and be just the same as those who were among the third of spirits who rebelled in the pre-existence. It seems that God cannot ever trust those who rebel against knowledge.

If we are talking about the fullness of eternal truth, everyone in mortality is ignorant to some degree.

[Stargazer]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

If we are talking about the fullness of eternal truth, everyone in mortality is ignorant to some degree.

Yes, but I was referring to those in mortality who no longer believe, but know. Of course, still being mortal, they are still ignorant to a certain degree, as you say, but in one sense they are not ignorant. And that is a very important sense. Consider Joseph Smith and the Brother of Jared. They no longer believed; they knew beyond all doubt of God's power. And thus became potential Sons of Perdition, if they ever rebelled against that knowledge.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

but I was referring to those in mortality who no longer believe, but know

Belief vs knowledge….is there anyone who actually no longer believes, but knows they are wrong in that belief?  Seems unlikely, even impossible.

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Belief vs knowledge….is there anyone who actually no longer believes, but knows they are wrong in that belief?  Seems unlikely, even impossible.

I am very confident that some of the things I believe are false, even to the extent that I could say I know that I believe some false things. Problem is I don't know what those things are. I hope I would stop believing them if I discovered them. 😜

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Belief vs knowledge….is there anyone who actually no longer believes, but knows they are wrong in that belief?  Seems unlikely, even impossible.

Korihor is a perfect example of this counterintuitive spiritual phenomenon. While Korihor always knew in his heart of hearts (his spirit) that there was a God, in his carnal mind he simultaneously believed there was no God. In fact, the reason why Alma refused to remove the curse of dumbness from Korihor is because the Spirit revealed to him that if he did remove the curse Korihor’s carnal mind would end up reverting right back to being a zealous proselyting atheist, and this in spite of his seemingly humble and impassioned confession that he always knew there was a God. The natural man and the inward spiritual  man truly are at war.

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God.

53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me. (Alma 30)

and…

54 Now when he had said this, he besought that Alma should pray unto God, that the curse might be taken from him.

55 But Alma said unto him: If this curse should be taken from thee thou wouldst again lead away the hearts of this people; therefore, it shall be unto thee even as the Lord will. (Alma 30)

 

Edited July 1, 2025 by teddyaware

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

While Korihor always knew in his heart of hearts (his spirit) that there was a God, in his carnal mind he simultaneously believed there was no God

belief in 1828:

Quote

1. A persuasion of the truth, or an assent of mind to the truth of a declaration, proposition or alleged fact, on the ground of evidence, distinct from personal knowledge; as the belief of the gospel; belief of a witness. belief may also be founded on internal impressions, or arguments and reasons furnished by our own minds; as the belief of our senses; a train of reasoning may result in beliefbelief is opposed to knowledge and science.

2. In theology, faith, or a firm persuasion of the truths of religion.

Knowledge:

Quote

1. A clear and certain perception of that which exists, or of truth and fact; the perception of the connection and agreement, or disagreement and repugnancy of our ideas.

We can have no knowledge of that which does not exist. God has a perfect knowledge of all his works. Human knowledge is very limited, and is mostly gained by observation and experience.

The connotations of knowledge for me are likely different than Webster’s view above because since I see our perceptions are human and mortal, therefore they can never be fully trusted.  Knowledge just isn’t limited, but it is unreliable because perception is unreliable.  So knowledge for me is more strong belief than a different quality of experience that is based in ultimate truth.  Knowledge may feel certain possibly because the impact of our experience or possibly because we perceive our experiences to have been repeated over and over with the same result or we perceive we share the same perceptions with others…but there is always in my view the possibility we are wrong.

There are people who say they know for a fact the earth is flat and they have done experiments that prove it.  I have seen videos of people doing these.  Unfortunately they don’t understand the variables influencing those experiments or the implications.  They still see it as knowledge because in their view it’s been proven.  But for those of us who reject their proofs, it’s only their beliefs…which leads me to accept belief and knowledge as meaning the same thing practically speaking.

I need Mark to show up, lol.

Edited July 1, 2025 by Calm

[OGHoosier]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

There are people who say they know for a fact the earth is flat and they have done experiments that prove it.  I have seen videos of people doing these.  Unfortunately they don’t understand the variables influencing those experiments or the implications.  They still see it as knowledge because in their view it’s been proven.  But for those of us who reject their proofs, it’s only their beliefs…which leads me to accept belief and knowledge as meaning the same thing practically speaking.

I need Mark to show up, lol.

I can try to channel him, lol. 

There's a long philosophical back and forth on the nature of knowledge, internalist v. externalist justificiations of knowledge, etc. It was thought for a long time that "knowledge" could be said to be "justified true belief" but then a guy named Edmund Gettier showed up in 1963 and vaporized that by posing what has come to be known as a "Gettier problem." You know you've made it in philosophy when people name a problem after you.

Say you are looking at a distant roof and you see a splotch of gray which looks to you like a pigeon. From this, you form the belief that there is a pigeon standing on the roof. Your eyes are functioning well and are not giving you false data. It would not be unusual, after all, for a pigeon to be standing on a roof. As it happens, that gray pigeon-resembling splotch is just a piece of canvas or something which, by remarkable circumstance, resembles a pigeon so closely that anybody at your distance would be fooled. Unbeknowndst to you, you're not looking at an actual pigeon. HOWEVER...on the other side of the roof, beyond your view, there is in fact a pigeon standing on the roof! 

Therefore, you do have a 

Belief (there is a pigeon on the roof)

which is Justified (your eyes, which are not malfunctioning, tell you that there is a pigeon on the roof)

and which is True! (there is in fact a pigeon on the roof)

However, could you really be said to know that there is a pigeon on the roof? It doesn't seem so to me. But if knowledge is not justified true belief, then what is it? Whole forests have gone to pulp over this. Others, the pragmatists, like Rorty whom Mark cites, say that the imprecision of language means we will never get a handle on it, and encourage a sort of "we know what it means when we see it" that isn't too put out by the specificities of definitions. Analytic philosophers everywhere recoil in horror, normal people are mostly unaffected.

I've tended to read Korihor's self-description as a) coming from an unreliable narrator (Alma says so right there), and b) coming from a society with a broader conception of the supernatural than we have. If a supernatural being appears to you and says there's no God, that being could be some kind of spirit or something, not necessarily a God. So Korihor, already wanting to do away with God, believed what the entity had to say, preached it, and in so doing reified that belief within himself while holding some doubts that suddenly presented themselves when Alma struck him dumb. We've all met that person who said "I knew it!" when something goes wrong even though they obviously didn't. Such a one was Korihor.

Edited July 1, 2025 by OGHoosier

[GoCeltics]

On 6/30/2025 at 2:12 PM, CV75 said:

Since these spirit children were born after the war, they would not have made choices affecting their involvement in the war we experienced. Their opportunities for development, council, war, mortality, etc. may yet be future or under development while ours have been and are already at play.

By "yet future", are you saying they have not yet started developing in their pre-mortal life? Will they be involved in a future war in heaven with another Lucifer-to-be?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

By "yet future", are you saying they have not yet started developing in their pre-mortal life? Will they be involved in a future war in heaven with another Lucifer-to-be?

I said, "Their opportunities for development, council, war, mortality, etc. may yet be future or under development... "

Those who have these opportunities may well choose to be involved in a war in heaven when such opportunity develops. The parable in D&C 88 is a good way to see how the continuation of the lives and the plan of salvation are repeated, the previous verses in that Section providing a description o sorts of life in the eternal round.

When does anything or anyone start developing -- can a person perceive an opportunity without some level of development, and, considering the perception to be an opportunity, at some level of nondevelopment? Can you describe anything that never previously developed from a less developed state, or regressed from a more developed state?

[The Nehor]

On 6/30/2025 at 8:02 PM, teddyaware said:

Korihor is a perfect example of this counterintuitive spiritual phenomenon. While Korihor always knew in his heart of hearts (his spirit) that there was a God, in his carnal mind he simultaneously believed there was no God. In fact, the reason why Alma refused to remove the curse of dumbness from Korihor is because the Spirit revealed to him that if he did remove the curse Korihor’s carnal mind would end up reverting right back to being a zealous proselyting atheist, and this in spite of his seemingly humble and impassioned confession that he always knew there was a God. The natural man and the inward spiritual  man truly are at war.

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God.

53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me. (Alma 30)

and…

54 Now when he had said this, he besought that Alma should pray unto God, that the curse might be taken from him.

55 But Alma said unto him: If this curse should be taken from thee thou wouldst again lead away the hearts of this people; therefore, it shall be unto thee even as the Lord will. (Alma 30)

 

This whole passage makes a lot more sense if you assume Korihor was still lying about this angelic devil. Saying oh wait, I actually do believe in God and ‘the devil made me do it’ so please reverse this sounds like a desperate plea for mercy and evasion of responsibility. Not really my fault, it was the bad angel. Note that Alma doesn’t acknowledge his ridiculous story as accurate. Alma just says you would start preaching this again in a heartbeat.

I mean seriously, the devil really has to appear in person to deliver that kind of temptation? Since when? Why appear in person when your very appearing undermines the teaching you are giving. Also how would Korihor suddenly know it was the devil right then?

[GoCeltics]

On 7/2/2025 at 11:33 AM, CV75 said:

Can you describe anything that never previously developed from a less developed state, or regressed from a more developed state?

God.

[CV75]

39 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

God.

Bu that is not a description.

[teddyaware]

On 7/3/2025 at 3:39 AM, The Nehor said:

This whole passage makes a lot more sense if you assume Korihor was still lying about this angelic devil. Saying oh wait, I actually do believe in God and ‘the devil made me do it’ so please reverse this sounds like a desperate plea for mercy and evasion of responsibility. Not really my fault, it was the bad angel. Note that Alma doesn’t acknowledge his ridiculous story as accurate. Alma just says you would start preaching this again in a heartbeat.

I mean seriously, the devil really has to appear in person to deliver that kind of temptation? Since when? Why appear in person when your very appearing undermines the teaching you are giving. Also how would Korihor suddenly know it was the devil right then?

For your own convenience, it appears you’re grossly oversimplifying a spiritual narrative that’s filled with subtly, nuance, and many surprising and interesting twists and turns. My recommendation is that you take a deep dive into Alma 30 and thoroughly ponder every verse, for doing so may help you to realize that there are many things in the story of Korihor that need to be considered in order to be better equipped to understand the principles pertaining to the eternal conflict between truth and error. All kinds of weird things can and do happen when fallen, spiritually numb humans beings encounter and grapple with the Spirit of Truth.

Edited July 4, 2025 by teddyaware

[Stargazer]

On 7/1/2025 at 12:42 AM, Calm said:

Belief vs knowledge….is there anyone who actually no longer believes, but knows they are wrong in that belief?  Seems unlikely, even impossible.

Calm, please, I'm talking about someone who has had a "Brother of Jared" experience and then rebels against that knowledge. 

D&C 76:31 -> "Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power"

They may act like they no longer believe, but they left belief long behind and are rebelling against knowledge, as opposed to mere belief or faith.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

For your own convenience, it appears you’re grossly oversimplifying a spiritual narrative that’s filled with subtly, nuance, and many surprising and interesting twists and turns. My recommendation is that you take a deep dive into Alma 30 and thoroughly ponder every verse, for doing so may help you to realize that there are many things in the story of Korihor that need to be considered in order to be better equipped to understand the principles pertaining to the eternal conflict between truth and error. All kinds of weird things can and do happen when fallen, spiritually numb humans beings encounter and grapple with the Spirit of Truth.

My reading is nuanced. I am skeptical of the liar in the narrative. Why does everyone else assume Korihor suddenly starts telling the truth at that point? That is how our fictional entertainment does it with the villain rarely deceiving the audience and you can usually trust what they say. Liars in real life just keep lying. If this is supposed to be a true story I have no reason to trust Korihor.

[GoCeltics]

On 7/4/2025 at 10:06 AM, CV75 said:

Bu that is not a description.

You're right, but God is not a being who progressed from a less-developed state.

[MustardSeed]

42 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

You're right, but God is not a being who progressed from a less-developed state.

Lorenzo would like a word