The war in heaven

[CV75]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

God is God before anyone worships Him and before He creates anything.

Of course!

[Calm]

7 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So you feel someone should continue a conversation they feel has reached an impasse?

No, but a simple acknowledgment of what a person has said in a way that shows one understands the point that was made while disconnecting shows the reason for the disconnect is not being dismissive or lack of understanding.

[InCognitus]

On 9/26/2025 at 11:39 AM, theplains said:

On 9/24/2025 at 9:28 AM, InCognitus said:

The Bible doesn't even say that.  It says, "Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God." (Psalm 90:2, YLT).

From all ages in eternity past to all ages in eternity future.

You're adding to what the Bible says again.  It never says he was God from all ages in eternity past to all ages in eternity future, it says "Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God." (Psalm 90:2, YLT).

On 9/26/2025 at 11:39 AM, theplains said:

This cannot be said of the LDS
Heavenly Father; a man who became a God.

Of course Jesus, who was once a man, is also God.  So why couldn't this also be said of Heavenly Father who was a divine being (like Jesus) before he became man?

[GoCeltics]

On 9/26/2025 at 9:29 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

So you believe the universe is smaller than current scientific theories?

I don’t know what these theories say, but I believe creation is larger than what scientists can see with the telescope.

 

On 9/26/2025 at 9:29 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

"inhabited by us"? Expound, please.

We may be able to go there and live some day.

 

On 9/26/2025 at 9:29 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

B. "created as eternal uncreated..."

*** You lost me on that. Please, clarify.

Grammar error. I meant I don’t believe in uncreated, eternal intelligences, save God himself.

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

I meant I don’t believe in uncreated, eternal intelligences, save God himself.

 

Why only God?

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

I don’t know what these theories say, but I believe creation is larger than what scientists can see with the telescope.

 

We may be able to go there and live some day.

 

Grammar error. I meant I don’t believe in uncreated, eternal intelligences, save God himself.

 

1) Thanks for the clarification, your original post was confusing- it really seemed like you thought the universe was smaller than current models.

2) "live there someday" ... Like have our own individual planets? Seems pretty lonesome, if there is no marriage or offspring.

3) OK

[teddyaware]

16 hours ago, InCognitus said:

You're adding to what the Bible says again.  It never says he was God from all ages in eternity past to all ages in eternity future, it says "Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God." (Psalm 90:2, YLT).

Of course Jesus, who was once a man, is also God.  So why couldn't this also be said of Heavenly Father who was a divine being (like Jesus) before he became man?

This is what perplexes me? They swallow like sweetest honey the idea the idea that the eternal, immaterial, immortal, quiescent, omniscient, unchangeable God, in the person of the Logos, could a) Be born a helpless child on a fallen world in a generation of time. b) Take upon himself a material body of flesh, blood and bone. C) This same material body being capacitated to experience the greatest extremes of human suffering and even death. d) This same immaterial God experiencing all the dramatic growth and changes that normally happen to human beings as they grow and progress through life in the material world. e) Even though he was  the Eternal God, yet  he had to learn how to be obedient by the things which he suffered, eventually learning how to become perfect by submitting his separate will to the will of his Father. f) And even though the Apostle Paul testifies that all the fullness of the Godhead dwells within the material body of Christ, yet somehow we’re supposed to believe that if God the Father also had a material body that it would necessarily diminish and detract from his divinity in some way.

If he had the choice, why wouldn’t God the Father choose to have a body so that he could also have the wonderful experience of being able intimately interact with his physical creation and the same way his Son does? The bottom line?  The New Testament make it perfectly reasonable to believe that materially doesn’t necessarily negate divinity.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2)

 

[GoCeltics]

On 9/29/2025 at 11:41 AM, Calm said:

Why only God?

Because God always was God.

[theplains]

On 9/28/2025 at 7:23 PM, InCognitus said:

Of course Jesus, who was once a man, is also God.  So why couldn't this also be said of Heavenly Father who was a divine being (like Jesus) before he became man?

Jesus is taught to have been a spirit who became a God in a pre-mortal life.

[theplains]

On 9/26/2025 at 3:01 PM, CV75 said:

Of course!

Which doesn't describe the LDS Heavenly Father; a man who became a God.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Which doesn't describe the LDS Heavenly Father; a man who became a God.

Nope, you are incomplete…

Christ was God before he was a man, so if he did everything he saw his Father do, then the Father was intelligence and god (meaning he possessed the nature of God), and spirit and God (when he assume the office of God before mortality like Christ did as Jehovah) and then mortal man and God (as Christ did as Jesus) and then exalted man and God (as Jesus Christ is now).

Edited October 2, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

10 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Because God always was God.

That doesn’t explain why there can’t be other uncreated eternal intelligences though.

I am fine if your reasoning is it’s simply your belief that he is the only one.

Edited October 2, 2025 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Which doesn't describe the LDS Heavenly Father; a man who became a God.

Nope, He was always God.

Jesus was always God.

Those who are exalted will be rightly described as having always been God.

God is just who we are- like a family name in a way. Some realize their full potential in the eternities, many do not. 

 

Edited October 2, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Nope, He was always God.

Jesus was always God.

Those who are exalted will be rightly described as having always been God.

God is just who we are- like a family name in a way. Some realize their full potential in the eternities, many do not. 

 

I wonder how many church members are aware of scripturally attested fact that we are not just eternal intelligences who had no beginning and will have no end, but that lying at the very root of our most elementary and fundamental nature is the spark of divinity itself?

‘Knowest thou not that thou art a spark of Diety, struck from the fire of his eternal blaze?” (President John Taylor)

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth; (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

and…

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Edited October 3, 2025 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

Jesus is taught to have been a spirit who became a God in a pre-mortal life.

That's what the earliest Christians taught, yes.

But you also said...

7 hours ago, theplains said:

Which doesn't describe the LDS Heavenly Father; a man who became a God.

It seems you want to have it both ways.  Which is it?

In Joseph Smith's teachings God was a divine being before he became man, and has always been the most advanced of all other beings, "the Eternal God of all other gods" (Doctrine and Covenants 121:32).

[CV75]

16 hours ago, theplains said:

Which doesn't describe the LDS Heavenly Father; a man who became a God.

I think you've been corrected more than once on what the "LDS Heavenly Father" is, unless for some reason (what is that reason?) this term is used to convey something other than this: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/god-the-father?lang=eng 

See also:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/father-in-heaven?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/study-topics-test/heavenly-father?lang=eng

Individual Church members' personal beliefs -- and yours -- may or may not reflect the information in these links.

What is your religion, and do you have a link that describes your denomination's description of Heavenly Father (please share the links), and do you have an understanding that you might express differently from your provided text?

Edited October 3, 2025 by CV75

[GoCeltics]

On 10/2/2025 at 6:51 PM, Calm said:

That doesn’t explain why there can’t be other uncreated eternal intelligences though.

There are according to Abraham 3:18-21 but they are not Gods.

[ZealouslyStriving]

27 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

There are according to Abraham 3:18-21 but they are not Gods.

Define "Gods"- to see if we are using the same language.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

There are according to Abraham 3:18-21 but they are not Gods.

"Yet"

[Calm]

8 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

There are according to Abraham 3:18-21 but they are not Gods.

Do you believe this verse?

[GoCeltics]

On 10/4/2025 at 6:15 PM, Calm said:

Do you believe this verse?

Can you be more specific.

[GoCeltics]

On 10/4/2025 at 10:00 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Define "Gods"- to see if we are using the same language.

How do you define what a God is?

[ZealouslyStriving]

11 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

How do you define what a God is?

I asked you first.

[theplains]

On 10/3/2025 at 8:45 AM, CV75 said:

I think you've been corrected more than once on what the "LDS Heavenly Father" is, unless for some reason (what is that reason?) this term is used to convey something other than this: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/god-the-father?lang=eng 

See also:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/father-in-heaven?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/study-topics-test/heavenly-father?lang=eng

Individual Church members' personal beliefs -- and yours -- may or may not reflect the information in these links.

What is your religion, and do you have a link that describes your denomination's description of Heavenly Father (please share the links), and do you have an understanding that you might express differently from your provided text?

LDS teachings that God is an exalted man (sorted):

April 1971, New Era, People on other Worlds
April 1971, Ensign, The King Follett Discourse
May 1976, New Era, How to Gain a Testimony
July 1979, Ensign, Line Upon Line
February 1982, Ensign, I Have a Question
January 1989, Ensign, The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith
February 2002, Ensign, The Origin of Man
January 2005, Liahona, Strengthening the Family: Created in the Image of God, Male and Female
October 2008, General Conference, God Loves and Helps all His Children
2008, Teachings of Presidents of the Church - Joseph Smith, chapter 2: God the Eternal Father
February 2012, Liahona, Our Father in Heaven.

God is eternally God from everlasting to everlasting.

My belief in God is based on the following:

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may 
know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, 
neither shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am 
the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared 
it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know 
not any" (Isaiah 44:8).

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, 
though thou hast not known me" (Isaiah 45:5).

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth 
and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be 
inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else" (Isaiah 45:18).

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared 
this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there 
is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto 
me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else" 
(Isaiah 45:21-22). 

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, 
and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9).

[theplains]

On 10/2/2025 at 7:24 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Jesus was always God.

Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, says, "As far as man is concerned,
all things center in Christ. He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth
he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while
yet in his pre-existent state".

To simplify it, reaching some level of intelligence made the LDS Jesus a God.