The war in heaven

[theplains]

On 10/2/2025 at 6:46 PM, Calm said:

Christ was God before he was a man,

And the LDS Christ was not God until he became a God in his pre-mortal life.

This is what I also mentioned to ZealouslyStriving.

Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, says, "As far as man is concerned,
all things center in Christ. He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth
he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while
yet in his pre-existent state".

To simplify it, reaching some level of intelligence made the LDS Jesus a God.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

And the LDS Christ was not God until he became a God in his pre-mortal life.

This is what I also mentioned to ZealouslyStriving.

Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, says, "As far as man is concerned,
all things center in Christ. He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth
he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while
yet in his pre-existent state".

To simplify it, reaching some level of intelligence made the LDS Jesus a God.

You’re ignoring the fact that Latter-Day Saint theology Christ existed as a Divine intelligence before taking upon himself an organized spirt body in heaven; and in a similar manner to what he experienced in the pre-earth life, it was by his obedience and devotion to the truth in this fallen world that he attained perfection, but only after learning how to be obedient by the things which he suffered while tabernacled in an earthly body of flesh, bone and blood.

Do you believe Christ’s eternal divinity is diminished in any way because he was required to pass through great of trials of faith in this fallen world in order to learn how to be obedient to God by the things which he suffered? And why is it only after proving himself to be worthy in this life was he able to become perfect?

From the Latter-Day Saint perspective, although Christ truly is a Divine Being from all eternity to all eternity, he nevertheless had to prove himself worthy through trials of faith in the pre-earth life as well as on this earth. In reality, the only difference between what you believe and what I believe is that I believe Christ had to prove himself worthy through successfully overcoming great trials twice, whereas you believe he only had to be tried in the crucible of adversity on this earth.

Another question: How could the perfect immaterial, immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, quiescent God be required to take upon himself a material body, capable of death, and then be commanded to pass through great trials of faith before he was be able to prove himself worthy, and thereby become the author and finisher of our faith, if he already was perfect and worthy in every way?

Edited October 6, 2025 by teddyaware

[CV75]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

LDS teachings that God is an exalted man (sorted):

April 1971, New Era, People on other Worlds
April 1971, Ensign, The King Follett Discourse
May 1976, New Era, How to Gain a Testimony
July 1979, Ensign, Line Upon Line
February 1982, Ensign, I Have a Question
January 1989, Ensign, The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith
February 2002, Ensign, The Origin of Man
January 2005, Liahona, Strengthening the Family: Created in the Image of God, Male and Female
October 2008, General Conference, God Loves and Helps all His Children
2008, Teachings of Presidents of the Church - Joseph Smith, chapter 2: God the Eternal Father
February 2012, Liahona, Our Father in Heaven.

God is eternally God from everlasting to everlasting.

My belief in God is based on the following:

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may 
know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, 
neither shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am 
the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared 
it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know 
not any" (Isaiah 44:8).

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, 
though thou hast not known me" (Isaiah 45:5).

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth 
and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be 
inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else" (Isaiah 45:18).

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared 
this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there 
is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto 
me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else" 
(Isaiah 45:21-22). 

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, 
and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9).

But I asked: What is your religion, and do you have a link that describes your denomination's description of Heavenly Father (please share the links), and do you have an understanding that you might express differently from your provided text?

[Clear]

I don't particularly have much interest in this thread other than to make a point in historical and linguistic context.

Multiple posters are making references to time periods such as "eternity".  The problem is that the discussion becomes anachronistic when we take the ancient words out of their original meaning and place them into a modern context.

For example, a poster quoted Psalms 90:2 as "Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God."

 

1) THERE IS NO WORD IN HEBREW OR GREEK (KOINE) THAT MEANS "ETERNAL"

One historical problem is that there is no word in Hebrew or Greek for "eternal" given the modern, typical meaning of "eternal"

Psalms 89:2 (LXX - greek) "Απο του αιωνος και εως του αιωνος συ ει"  The Greek word αιων (eon) does not mean "eternal" but instead, it means a period of time whose end is unknown or undetermined.

Psalms 90: (M - Hebrew)  “  וּֽמֵעֹולָ֥ם עַד־ עֹ֝ולָ֗ם”  the Hebrew word olam ( עֹ֝ולָ֗ם ) does not mean "eternal" in the modern context, but instead, it is a length of time that has no determined end.   

BOTH the greek Απο του αιωνος και εως του αιωνος  and the hebrew   וּֽמֵעֹולָ֥ם עַד־ עֹ֝ולָ֗םmean "FROM" the aeons (past) and INTO the aeons (future) you are God.  However, neither version tell us how long the aeon past lasted, nor do they indicate how long the aeon future will last.   

For example, we say "forever and ever" (which seems redundant but isn't).  It's meaning in both Greek and Hebrew are "aeons past" and "aeons future" and does not indicate any specific time past nor time future.

 

 

 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

whereas you believe he only had to be tried in the crucible of adversity on this earth.

 

@theplains, do you believe that Jesus was tried in mortality, needed to show obedience to God and thus worthiness (for others’ benefit more than his own possibly) or something else.  I am wonder if Teddy’s assumption about your belief is incorrect.

Edited October 6, 2025 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Clear said:

I don't particularly have much interest in this thread other than to make a point in historical and linguistic context.

Multiple posters are making references to time periods such as "eternity".  The problem is that the discussion becomes anachronistic when we take the ancient words out of their original meaning and place them into a modern context.

For example, a poster quoted Psalms 90:2 as "Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God."

 

1) THERE IS NO WORD IN HEBREW OR GREEK (KOINE) THAT MEANS "ETERNAL"

One historical problem is that there is no word in Hebrew or Greek for "eternal" given the modern, typical meaning of "eternal"

Psalms 89:2 (LXX - greek) "Απο του αιωνος και εως του αιωνος συ ει"  The Greek word αιων (eon) does not mean "eternal" but instead, it means a period of time whose end is unknown or undetermined.

Psalms 90: (M - Hebrew)  “  וּֽמֵעֹולָ֥ם עַד־ עֹ֝ולָ֗ם”  the Hebrew word olam ( עֹ֝ולָ֗ם ) does not mean "eternal" in the modern context, but instead, it is a length of time that has no determined end.   

BOTH the greek Απο του αιωνος και εως του αιωνος  and the hebrew   וּֽמֵעֹולָ֥ם עַד־ עֹ֝ולָ֗םmean "FROM" the aeons (past) and INTO the aeons (future) you are God.  However, neither version tell us how long the aeon past lasted, nor do they indicate how long the aeon future will last.   

For example, we say "forever and ever" (which seems redundant but isn't).  It's meaning in both Greek and Hebrew are "aeons past" and "aeons future" and does not indicate any specific time past nor time future.

 

 

 

Very good point!

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

@theplains, do you believe that Jesus was tried in mortality, needed to show obedience to God and thus worthiness (for others’ benefit more than his own possibly) or something else.  I am wonder if Teddy’s assumption about your belief is incorrect.

In his classic sacred biography “Jesus the Christ,” Apostle James E Talmage asserts that Jesus was peccable, meaning that it was possible for the Lord to commit sin, and may have succumbed to the powers of darkness without being fully willing to surrender his will to of his Father in all things. Therefore the Lord’s faithful obedience in surrendering his will to the will of Father in all things was essential for his own salvation, for without faithfully overcoming every obstacle placed before him he wouldn’t have been fully worthy to atone for our sins through his sinless infinite and eternal sacrifice. His tremendous trial in Gethsemane amply demonstrates that his struggle to remain fully faithful, obedient and sinless before his Father was the most difficult trial in the war of good vs evil that ever took place. In the religion of the Latter-Day Saints, Christ is worthy of our adoration and worship because he is greatest of all conquering hero’s, for he single handedly won the victory of good over evil against seemingly impossible odds. To the Latter-Day Saints, Christ is good because he wants to be good; he’s not a cosmic automaton who has no choice but to be and do good. In other words, Christ’s victory over evil was a the greatest of all miracles that was only made possible by his indomitable faith and courage.

Edited October 6, 2025 by teddyaware

[ZealouslyStriving]

52 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

In his classic sacred biography “Jesus the Christ,” Apostle James E Talmage asserts that Jesus was peccable, meaning that it was possible for the Lord to commit sin, and may have succumbed to the powers of darkness without being fully willing to surrender his will to of his Father in all things. Therefore the Lord’s faithful obedience in surrendering his will to the will of Father in all things was essential for his own salvation, for without faithfully overcoming every obstacle placed before him he wouldn’t have been fully worthy to atone for our sins through his sinless infinite and eternal sacrifice. His tremendous trial in Gethsemane amply demonstrates that his struggle to remain fully faithful, obedient and sinless before his Father was the most difficult trial in the war of good vs evil that ever took place. In the religion of the Latter-Day Saints, Christ is worthy of our adoration and worship because he is greatest of all conquering hero’s, for he single handedly won the victory of good over evil against seemingly impossible odds. To the Latter-Day Saints, Christ is good because he wants to be good; he’s not a cosmic automaton who has no choice but to be and do good. In other words, Christ’s victory over evil was a the greatest of all miracles that was only made possible by his indomitable faith and courage.

Also, Lectures on Faith teaches that the Savior's temptations were equal to His greatness- meaning the trials He experienced far exceeded what we would be able to endure.

Lecture 5:2

Edited October 6, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving
Added reference

[Calm]

I don’t disagree with either of you.

I wonder whether or not plains does though.

[teddyaware]

17 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Also, Lectures on Faith teaches that the Savior's temptations were equal to His greatness- meaning the trials He experienced far exceeded what we would be able to endure.

Lecture 5:2

Exactly! Even God himself is not exempt from the need to prove his own fidelity to the truth by being commanded to pass through unimaginably difficult tests of loyalty to the truth, trials of faith and courage that were infinitely and eternally more difficult and challenging than the tests of faith faced by any of the other spirit sons or daughters of God.

As President Hollander testified in his last General Conference address, even Jesus Christ had to battle against extreme discouragement and doubt. THIS is why he is worthy of our worship — against the onslaught of the full weight and fury of the forces of spiritual darkness he emerged victorious against all odds as the greatest of all imaginable conquering heros.

We worship and honor him not because he can’t help but be good, but because he mightily wrestled against very real human weaknesses and ultimately triumphed over them because in his great love for the Father and for us HE WANTED AND UNRESERVEDLY CHOSE TO BE GOOD! The atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ is, by far, the greatest of all miracles because the struggle Christ willingly engaged in, and successfully fought, was immeasurably difficult — even an infinite and eternal struggle to bless us with the sacred freedom to choose.

Edited October 7, 2025 by teddyaware

[Clear]

I’ve noticed two recent themes in the discussions, one regards the time-line of Jesus’ progression as a God and the second regards whether more spirit children were being produced after the fall of man.

I’m currently in a historical discussion regarding a related subject that may offer a bit of historical context concerning this point.   If I understand, the recent issues have regarded IF Jesus (or another God) could possibily “progress” and secondly, early on there was a discussion regarding if more spirits were continuing to increase after the fall of man.

 

1)  REGARDING A THEORY THAT JESUS EVER PROGRESSES FROM A LOWER TO A HIGHER STATE

a) JEWISH TEXTS DESCRIBE THE BELIEF THAT THERE WERE THOSE IN HEAVEN WHO ARE “GODLIKE”

The Jewish Dead Sea Scrolls describe those in pre-creation heaven who were “Godlike”:  4Q400 says:   

 “...praise Your glory among the wise divine beings, extolling Your kingdom among the utterly holy.  They are honored in all the camps of the godlike beings and feared by those who direct human affairs, wondrous beyond other divine beings and humans alike.  They tell of His royal splendor as they truly know it, and exalt His glory in all the heavens of His rule.  They sing wonderful psalms according to their insight throughout the highest heaven, and declare the surpassing glory of the King of the godlike beings in the stations of their habitation…. THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400 Frag. 2   

While these Hebrew texts describe the Hebrew belief in “Godlike” beings in heaven, IF beings who are NOT “Godlike” can become “Godlike”, then Theo-Phisophically your conversation seems to wonder if the Messiah/Jesus could have ever been among the “Godlike” in ancient temple centric Judaism (and progressed) or if he was always a “full fledged God”.

 IF, Jesus was, ever,…ever, among the “Godlike” and not yet a God but progressed and at some point ordained a God, then this is a model supporting progression. 

 

2)  THE EARLY TEXTS DESCRIBE A TIME BEFORE JESUS IS “NAMED” CHRIST

In the Clementine Recognitions text, the apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created."

 

3)THE ANCIENT TEXTS DESCRIBE A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOD THE FATHER AND THE SON / MESSIAH

For example, in Jewish Enoch (1 Enoch 300 b.c.) the prophet enoch describes seeing God the Father and the Son (Son of Man), saying: 

“At that place, I saw the One to whom belongs he who is of primordial days.  And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual whose face was like that of a human being.  His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels.   And I asked the one–from among the angels–who was going with me, and who had revealed to me all the secrets regarding the One who was born of human beings, “Who is this, and from whence is he who is going with him who precedes time?”… And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells.  And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightness 1st Enoch 46:1-6;    

 

4) AT SOME POINT JESUS/MESSIAH IS NAMED MESSIAH IN GODS PLAN OF SALVATION

Again, the Prophet Enoch describes being given the name/nomination to be “the Chosen one” who will accomplish the atonement that was integral to the plan of salvation.  The phrase “he became the Chosen one” is interesting. The use of the term “Became” is a past tense of "become" which describes the action of change. 

The Prophet Enoch says: “At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits.  He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall.  He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts.  All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him: they shall glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits.  For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of (the Lord of the Spirits) prior to the creation of the world, and for eternity.  And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression (together with) all its ways of life and its habits in the name of the Lord of the Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life.” 1st Enoch 48:1-7

 

5)A  CHRISTIAN VERSION OF THE ACT OF VOLLENTERING TO BE THE SAVIOR

Another pseudepigraph “Discourse on Abbaton” is a 40 day literature text where Jesus is describing what happened when he was with his Father at creation.

The relevant text has Jesus saying to his disciples: “And He (His Father) took the clay from the hand of the angel, and made Adam according to Our image and likeness, and He left him lying for forty days and forty nights without putting breath into him.   And he heaved sighs over him daily, saying, “If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.” 

 And I said unto My Father, “Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.’  And My Father said unto Me, ‘If I put breath into him, My beloved son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to primal state.’  And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command.’

The text end with the putting of a spirit into Adam, the breath of Life”

 And He put breath into him in this way; He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life three times, saying, ‘Live!  Live!  Live!  According to the type of My Divinity.’   And the man lived straightway, and became a living soul, according to the image and likeness of God.  And when Adam had risen up he cast himself down before [My] father, saying, ‘My Lord and my God!  Thou hast made me to come into being [from a state in which] I did not exist.’

I am not making any specific point, other than to point out that the early Judeo-Christian literature has parallels to your discussion.

 

4  )REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF INTELLIGENCES BECOMING SPIRIT CHILDREN AFTER THE FALL OF ADAM

Note that I am not speaking of what the Pistis Sophia text (300s a.c.) calls “Self Willed matter” (i.e. the ethereal material out of which spirits are made), but instead of “spirits”.    Also, note that I am not referring to the Jewish tradition of 974 worlds being created prior to this one.  I am only referencing this world and spirits coming here.

Again, there are interesting parallels of early literature that simply describe the early Judeo-Christian belief. 

a)  THE ANCIENT HEBREW BELIEF THAT SPIRITS OF MANKIND EXISTED PRIOR TO BIRTH

Jewish Enoch (300s b.c.) describe the ancient belief of spirits that existed prior to Birth thusly:  ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1) 

The early hints of a plan for these spirits seems to be a census of sorts.  The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” 2nd Enoch 23:4-5

In his vision the angel bids the Prophet Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.” 

After seeing various souls, a midrashic explanation is given us by Enoch regarding these many souls.  It is in the context of the Jewish tradition that many, many worlds were created prior to this one.  Thus it is (usually) disorienting the see a text speak of others who have inhabited this or other worlds having returned to heaven. 

 However, the text speaks of this theme thusly:  “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” 3rd Enoch 43:1-3

 

The Jewish Haggadah also speaks of the spirits in this same storehouse, awaiting being sent to earth and mortality thusly:  “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” 3rd Enoch 43:1-3

This early text seems to represent a tradition that the number of spirits that come to THIS earth are not added to.  It does not indicate if this is because no other spirits are organized or if it means they are being organized but go to a different world.

 

The rest is irrelevant but interesting:

Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates :  “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”

 Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”

The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)

Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. :

At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world.

” The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of which fully developed souls it says :

“the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. In this wise, the Holy One, be blessed, possessed a son from the matron, that is, the supernal holy soul. He dispatched it to a village, that is, to this world, to be raised in it, and initiated into the ways of the King’s palace. Informed that his son was now come to maturity, and should be returned to the palace, the King, out of love, sent the matron for him to bring him into the palace....” Speaking of those left behind who mourn it was taught “Withal, the village people weep for the departure of the king’s son from among them. But one wise man said to them: ‘Why do you weep? Was this not the king’s son, whose true place is in his father’s palace and not with you?...’ “If the righteous were only aware of this, they would be filled with joy when their time comes to leave this world. For does it not honor them greatly that the matron comes down on their account, to take them into the King’s palace, where the King may every day rejoice in them?....And so, happy are the righteous and in the world to come, ... (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)

I have to stop here but I think so much of your conversation is dealing with questions the ancients have argued over and their conclusions seem as logical as those we make in our debates.  At any rate.  I’ll bow out.  thanks

[GoCeltics]

On 10/6/2025 at 9:19 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

I asked you first.

I would define Him as such: “God is a personal, supernatural being who created the universes and rules over them, being the source of life, purpose, and moral truth.”

There is only one. I don’t believe there are other Gods worshipped by others somewhere else.

[ZealouslyStriving]

34 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

I would define Him as such: “God is a personal, supernatural being who created the universes and rules over them, being the source of life, purpose, and moral truth.”

There is only one. I don’t believe there are other Gods worshipped by others somewhere else.

Same.

[teddyaware]

56 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

I would define Him as such: “God is a personal, supernatural being who created the universes and rules over them, being the source of life, purpose, and moral truth.”

There is only one. I don’t believe there are other Gods worshipped by others somewhere else.

How do you interpret the following verses of scripture?

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

and…

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, teddyaware said:

How do you interpret the following verses of scripture?

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

and…

 

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

There was a common motif in a then current strain of Jewish mysticism that Paul likely practiced that involved entering an ecstatic state and approaching heaven. Hostile angel guardians would view you as an interloper but if you had the right sigils and knew the correct passwords you could get by them and approach the throne of God and even sit on it. Of course in these enlightened days the idea of using symbols and secret passwords to approach the throne of God is seen as superstitious nonsense. 😜

[teddyaware]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There was a common motif in a then current strain of Jewish mysticism that Paul likely practiced that involved entering an ecstatic state and approaching heaven. Hostile angel guardians would view you as an interloper but if you had the right sigils and knew the correct passwords you could get by them and approach the throne of God and even sit on it. Of course in these enlightened days the idea of using symbols and secret passwords to approach the throne of God is seen as superstitious nonsense. 😜

To any knowledgeable, testimony bearing member of the church, it’s perfectly obvious that in this verse the Lord extends to the saints the most glorious promise of exaltation and enthronement with him as eternal kings and priests, as well as eternal queens and priestesses, to those men and women who overcome the world through a dynamic, overcoming faith in Christ. It’s clear that these divine thrones of eternal power are obtained only when the recipients wash their garments until pure and white in the blood of Christ, and by a obtaining a high personal righteousness that can only gained through a steadfast reliance on the salvative power of Jesus Christ. Your ‘commentary’ is frivolous, windows of the great and spacious building style mockery.

 

[manol]

On 10/9/2025 at 9:28 AM, teddyaware said:

How do you interpret the following verses of scripture?

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3) [emphasis manol's]

To me, this verse is talking about those who overcome being granted union/oneness with Christ, as Christ is in union/oneness with the Father.   I think the term "throne" herein is about a state of being or state of consciousness or state of presence, rather than about a big chair.  

And, I don't think this verse is about each of us getting out own separate thrones and kingdoms. 

Edited October 10, 2025 by manol

[The Nehor]

On 10/9/2025 at 9:28 AM, teddyaware said:

How do you interpret the following verses of scripture?

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

and…

 

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

 

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

To any knowledgeable, testimony bearing member of the church, it’s perfectly obvious that in this verse the Lord extends to the saints the most glorious promise of exaltation and enthronement with him as eternal kings and priests, as well as eternal queens and priestesses, to those men and women who overcome the world through a dynamic, overcoming faith in Christ.

?????????

Perfectly obvious? Pronouns are that malleable that it is perfectly obvious that “he” refers to men and women? Welcome to the transgender resistance comrade!

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It’s clear that these divine thrones of eternal power are obtained only when the recipients wash their garments until pure and white in the blood of Christ, and by a obtaining a high personal righteousness that can only gained through a steadfast reliance on the salvative power of Jesus Christ. Your ‘commentary’ is frivolous, windows of the great and spacious building style mockery.

That was ironic self-mockery but I guess it was a bit of an ask to expect you to pick up on that. Sorry.

[theplains]

On 10/6/2025 at 4:50 PM, Calm said:

@theplains, do you believe that Jesus was tried in mortality, needed to show obedience to God and thus worthiness (for others’ benefit more than his own possibly) or something else.  I am wonder if Teddy’s assumption about your belief is incorrect.

Yes. But Jesus is both God and man. There never is a time when he is not God.

[theplains]

On 10/6/2025 at 1:06 PM, CV75 said:

But I asked: What is your religion, and do you have a link that describes your denomination's description of Heavenly Father (please share the links), and do you have an understanding that you might express differently from your provided text?

I attend a Baptist Christian church, also Pentecostal one from time to time. Our teachings about
the eternal nature of God is primarily found in the Book of Isaiah.

[theplains]

On 10/6/2025 at 11:32 AM, teddyaware said:

You’re ignoring the fact that Latter-Day Saint theology Christ existed as a Divine intelligence before taking upon himself an organized spirt body in heaven

Don't you believe the same about yourself?
 

On 10/6/2025 at 11:32 AM, teddyaware said:

Do you believe Christ’s eternal divinity is diminished in any way because he was required to pass through great of trials of faith in this fallen world in order to learn how to be obedient to God by the things which he suffered?

No.
 

On 10/6/2025 at 11:32 AM, teddyaware said:

And why is it only after proving himself to be worthy in this life was he able to become perfect?
 

Define perfect.
 

On 10/6/2025 at 11:32 AM, teddyaware said:

From the Latter-Day Saint perspective, although Christ truly is a Divine Being from all eternity to all eternity

Are you a divine being (lower case) from all eternity to all eternity with the hope to become
a Divine Being?
 

On 10/6/2025 at 11:32 AM, teddyaware said:

Another question: How could the perfect immaterial, immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, quiescent God be required to take upon himself a material body, capable of death, and then be commanded to pass through great trials of faith before he was be able to prove himself worthy, and thereby become the author and finisher of our faith, if he already was perfect and worthy in every way?

For the Atonement.  It's hard to grasp since Christ is fully God and fully man in his incarnation.

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 minutes ago, theplains said:

Yes. But Jesus is both God and man. There never is a time when he is not God.

We know that.

(It is the definitions that trip up our discussion, not the general concept above.)

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, theplains said:

Don't you believe the same about yourself?
 

Yes.

3 minutes ago, theplains said:

No.
 

Define perfect.
 

 For me it means receiving His glorified, resurrected body and inheriting all His Father has (which He in turns shares with us, we being His "joint-heirs).

3 minutes ago, theplains said:

Are you a divine being (lower case) from all eternity to all eternity with the hope to become
a Divine Being?
 

Eh, I think we'll always be lowercase. Only the Father and Son are eternally upper case.

3 minutes ago, theplains said:

For the Atonement.  It's hard to grasp since Christ is fully God and fully man in his incarnation.

 

[teddyaware]

Just now, theplains said:

Don't you believe the same about yourself?
 

No.
 

Define perfect.
 

Are you a divine being (lower case) from all eternity to all eternity with the hope to become
a Divine Being?
 

For the Atonement.  It's hard to grasp since Christ is fully God and fully man in his incarnation.

But that’s the point isn’t it? You swallow like sweetest honey the idea that Jesus Christ can simultaneously be both fully God and fully man, but then you’re scandalized beyond measure at the mere thought of the possibility that God the Father could also be fully God and fully man!  And since within Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, it logically follows that it wouldn’t detract one iota from God the Father’s divinity if he also had a body. And why wouldn’t the person of God the Father want the added benefit of a material body if being tabernacled in flesh would in no way diminish from his holiness and perfection? And if having a body is so unimportant, why was God, in the person of Christ, resurrected with a tangible body of flesh and bone?

[GoCeltics]

On 10/9/2025 at 10:28 AM, teddyaware said:

How do you interpret the following verses of scripture?

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

and…

 

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

For chapter 3, I will add the verse before and after what you quoted:

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".

This is applicable for all who overcome, who endure to the end.

Christ is both God and man. This overcoming is related to his man-part. He did not have to overcome to become a God.

The verses you quoted in chapter 2 applies to the first resurrection, described in chapter 20.

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years”.

There is a contrast between those who overcome and those who don’t in Revelation 21.

“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death”.

Edited October 11, 2025 by GoCeltics