The war in heaven

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

For chapter 3, I will add the verse before and after what you quoted:

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".

This is applicable for all who overcome, who endure to the end.

Christ is both God and man. This overcoming is related to his man-part. He did not have to overcome to become a God.

The verses you quoted in chapter 2 applies to the first resurrection, described in chapter 20.

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years”.

There is a contrast between those who overcome and those who don’t in Revelation 21.

“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death”.

Isn’t it obvious that if Christ places crowns of heavenly kingship upon the heads to those who overcome the world, empowering them with the power and authority to reign as literal kings in heaven, that such individuals are, at very least, Godlike? And if these same devoted followers of Christ are given the supreme right to be seated on the very throne of his own eternal power, authority and Godhead, that the individuals who are blessed in this most glorious manner are, at very least, Godlike? And if these same devoted disciples are anointed to be the sons of God and  joint heirs with Christ in all things that Christ himself possesses, wouldn’t you agree that those who have been so mightily blessed and empowered are, at very least, Godlike? Even the Eastern Orthodox Church understands the plain meaning of these verses, acknowledging that they point to the process of apotheosis or deification, which is the glorification of those who overcome the world to divine levels of spiritual power and authority. 

Edited October 11, 2025 by teddyaware

[CV75]

20 hours ago, theplains said:

I attend a Baptist Christian church, also Pentecostal one from time to time. Our teachings about
the eternal nature of God is primarily found in the Book of Isaiah.

Thank you. I also asked that you provide those links (the scriptures and to these churches' hermeneutics, exegesis and eisegesis) and explain where your own hermeneutics, exegesis and eisegesis might differ from those portrayed on the links.

[GoCeltics]

On 10/11/2025 at 10:37 AM, teddyaware said:

Isn’t it obvious that if Christ places crowns of heavenly kingship upon the heads to those who overcome the world, empowering them with the power and authority to reign as literal kings in heaven, that such individuals are, at very least, Godlike? And if these same devoted followers of Christ are given the supreme right to be seated on the very throne of his own eternal power, authority and Godhead, that the individuals who are blessed in this most glorious manner are, at very least, Godlike? And if these same devoted disciples are anointed to be the sons of God and  joint heirs with Christ in all things that Christ himself possesses, wouldn’t you agree that those who have been so mightily blessed and empowered are, at very least, Godlike? Even the Eastern Orthodox Church understands the plain meaning of these verses, acknowledging that they point to the process of apotheosis or deification, which is the glorification of those who overcome the world to divine levels of spiritual power and authority. 

There’s a Gospel Topic essay called “Becoming Like God”.

“Thus, those who become like God and enter into a fulness of His glory are described as people who have been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood”.

Why wouldn’t the church make itself clearer by just specifying its plain meaning - “become Gods” instead of “becoming Godlike”?

Angels and humans are like God but they are not God.

[teddyaware]

32 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

There’s a Gospel Topic essay called “Becoming Like God”.

“Thus, those who become like God and enter into a fulness of His glory are described as people who have been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood”.

Why wouldn’t the church make itself clearer by just specifying its plain meaning - “become Gods” instead of “becoming Godlike”?

Angels and humans are like God but they are not God.

I was simply trying to help you to understand that even if you utterly refuse to believe that God can enlighten and empower his sons and daughters to become even as he is, that an honest reading of the New Testament should at very least cause an open minded man to concede that men can progress to the point where they will become very much like God, so much so that God even permits them to sit as crowned kings on the very throne of his eternal rulership and power.

Do you believe Christ when he testifies that those who overcome the world will wear heavenly royal crowns and reign as kings in heaven? If you do believe that those who overcome the world will be empowered and authorized to sit on God’s throne to reign as kings in heaven, what do you imagine the role of heavenly kinship entails? Will those so ordained rule and reign as actual kings in heaven, or is kingship in heaven just an empty title?

[teddyaware]

32 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

There’s a Gospel Topic essay called “Becoming Like God”.

“Thus, those who become like God and enter into a fulness of His glory are described as people who have been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood”.

Why wouldn’t the church make itself clearer by just specifying its plain meaning - “become Gods” instead of “becoming Godlike”?

Angels and humans are like God but they are not God.

I was simply trying to help you to understand that even if you utterly refuse to believe that God can enlighten and empower his sons and daughters to become even as he is, that an honest reading of the New Testament should at very least cause an open minded man to concede that men can progress to the point where they will become very much like God, so much so that God even permits them to sit as crowned kings on the very throne of his eternal rulership and power.

Do you believe Christ when he testifies that those who overcome the world will wear heavenly royal crowns and reign as kings in heaven? If you do believe that those who overcome the world will be empowered and authorized to sit on God’s throne to reign as kings in heaven, what do you imagine the role of heavenly kinship entails? Will those so ordained rule and reign as actual kings in heaven, or is kingship in heaven just an empty title?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Why wouldn’t the church make itself clearer by just specifying its plain meaning - “become Gods” instead of “becoming Godlike”?

Because too many use the so called “plain meaning” to claim the Church doctrine is something that it’s not and that is we will replace God.  “Becoming like God” is clearer that God remains our God no matter how far we progress.

Your misquoting shows how easy it is to misread something that appears simple, but is not.

The quote is not “becoming Godlike” and not “become Gods”, but “becoming like God”.  There is no “become Gods” in the article, nor “becoming Godlike”.  There are subtle nuances here and it is best to use what is actually said and not paraphrase, especially when using quotes.

”Becoming like God” keeps the focus on God, we want to draw nearer to him, become one with him.  “Becoming Godlike” is more of a focus on ourselves, it’s about acquiring God’s attributes, powers for ourselves.  The first is about our relationship, the second is centered on our self.

Edited October 14, 2025 by Calm

[teddyaware]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Because too many use the so called “plain meaning” to claim the Church doctrine is something that it’s not and that is we will replace God.  “Becoming like God” is clearer that God remains our God no matter how far we progress.

Your misquoting shows how easy it is to misread something that appears simple, but is not.

The quote is not “becoming Godlike” and not “become Gods”, but “becoming like God”.  There is no “become Gods” in the article, nor “becoming Godlike”.  There are subtle nuances here and it is best to use what is actually said and not paraphrase, especially when using quotes.

”Becoming like God” keeps the focus on God, we want to draw nearer to him, become one with him.  “Becoming Godlike” is more of a focus on ourselves, it’s about acquiring God’s attributes, powers for ourselves.  The first is about our relationship, the second is centered on our self.

BULLSEYE!!!

[GoCeltics]

On 10/14/2025 at 2:08 PM, Calm said:

The quote is not “becoming Godlike” and not “become Gods”, but “becoming like God”.  There is no “become Gods” in the article, nor “becoming Godlike”.  There are subtle nuances here and it is best to use what is actually said and not paraphrase, especially when using quotes.

”Becoming like God” keeps the focus on God, we want to draw nearer to him, become one with him.  “Becoming Godlike” is more of a focus on ourselves, it’s about acquiring God’s attributes, powers for ourselves.  The first is about our relationship, the second is centered on our self.

Is exaltation (“becoming a God”) a more accurate description than “becoming like God?”

[GoCeltics]

On 10/14/2025 at 10:58 AM, teddyaware said:

Do you believe Christ when he testifies that those who overcome the world will wear heavenly royal crowns and reign as kings in heaven? If you do believe that those who overcome the world will be empowered and authorized to sit on God’s throne to reign as kings in heaven, what do you imagine the role of heavenly kinship entails? Will those so ordained rule and reign as actual kings in heaven, or is kingship in heaven just an empty title?

Yes. I believe we’ll reign but I don’t believe we’ll become Gods, have spirit children, and then our spirit children will worship some other God instead of the Father and God who begot them.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

Yes. I believe we’ll reign but I don’t believe we’ll become Gods, have spirit children, and then our spirit children will worship some other God instead of the Father and God who begot them.

Reign how and over what? In case you missed it, the Savior testifies that the nature of the reign of those who overcome the world will be just like his, for they will follow in his same path and footsteps.

I’m wondering how exactly you see the following supreme promises of the Savior being fulfilled? Two questions:

1) Precisely who and what are the nations that those who become kings in heaven going to rule over with a rod of iron, in the same way that the Lord himself reigns over this world?

2) What does the Lord mean in verse 26 when he says, “even as I received of my Father?” Please answer plainly and be specific?

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

 

Edited October 16, 2025 by teddyaware

[Calm]

4 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Yes. I believe we’ll reign but I don’t believe we’ll become Gods, have spirit children, and then our spirit children will worship some other God instead of the Father and God who begot them.

Out of curiosity what do you believe “reign[ing]” entails?

added:  I see teddy asked pretty much the same question.  

Edited October 16, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Is exaltation (“becoming a God”) a more accurate description than “becoming like God?”

“Becoming like God” is the most accurate because of nuances and inferences people tend to make with “becoming a God”.

And here I think it very important to pay attention to capitalization as people infer more incorrectly  in my experience with a capital “G” than with a lower case “g”.  In fact, I am wondering why you continue to do so when it’s been pointed out there is a difference in how it’s typically used. God is a title and office for Heavenly Father while “god” is a type of being.  It is like using “President” or “King” for all humans instead of using “human”.  The confusion arises because we don’t have different words for God’s title as we do for description of his state of being.

So “becoming a God” is not an accurate representation of how the Church presents our future***. They tend to be careful now to write it as “becoming gods” or “becoming a god” from what I have seen to better communicate what we see as our eternal relationship with the Father and Son.

It makes a difference.  If it doesn’t in your view, then perhaps you can demonstrate this by always writing “god” with a lowercase g when not on this forum when referring to the Father in the future with others.  I suspect even if you don’t feel it is disrespectful, there will be others who are confused and ask why you are doing this.

 

***https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

Quote

 

These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).

2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).

3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.

4. They will receive a fulness of joy.

5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).

 

Edited October 16, 2025 by Calm

[theplains]

On 10/11/2025 at 11:58 AM, CV75 said:

Thank you. I also asked that you provide those links (the scriptures and to these churches' hermeneutics, exegesis and eisegesis) and explain where your own hermeneutics, exegesis and eisegesis might differ from those portrayed on the links.

The passages in Isaiah are clear enough.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may 
know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, 
neither shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am 
the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared 
it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know 
not any" (Isaiah 44:8).

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, 
though thou hast not known me" (Isaiah 45:5).

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth 
and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be 
inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else" (Isaiah 45:18).

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared 
this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there 
is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto 
me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else" 
(Isaiah 45:21-22). 

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, 
and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9).

[theplains]

On 10/10/2025 at 3:35 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Eh, I think we'll always be lowercase. Only the Father and Son are eternally upper case.

The LDS Father and Son became Gods so they are not eternally God (uppercase g).

[theplains]

On 10/10/2025 at 3:29 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

We know that.

(It is the definitions that trip up our discussion, not the general concept above.)

A seminary manual teaches Jesus reached some level of intelligence to rank him as a God.
Another teaching by an LDS leader has him becoming a God too.

[ZealouslyStriving]

13 minutes ago, theplains said:

The LDS Father and Son became Gods so they are not eternally God (uppercase g).

I super appreciate you telling me what I believe.

😐

[ZealouslyStriving]

20 minutes ago, theplains said:

A seminary manual teaches Jesus reached some level of intelligence to rank him as a God.
Another teaching by an LDS leader has him becoming a God too.

I was unaware that our manuals are scripture or that a statement by a church leader constitutes official, clearly established, and completely agreed upon doctrine.

Again, in all your researching to debunk Mormonism, you should check out Blake Ostler's work (unless, of course, your real intention is to pigeonhole us and set up straw men  🤔)

Edited October 16, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, theplains said:

The LDS Father and Son became Gods so they are not eternally God (uppercase g).

You keep saying that, you may believe that is the case even no matter how often Saints disagree, but we are not forced to agree simply because you are persistent.

They are eternally Gods.  It may not make sense to you, but it is our doctrine.  Here are quite a few scriptural references demonstrating this.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/triple-index/god-eternal-nature-of?lang=eng

You no doubt accept things that you can’t comprehend in your own beliefs since you are Christian, you accept there are mysteries that surround God.  It would likely be best if you just accepted this is an LDS mystery if you can’t understand it, it doesn’t seem logical to you, how God can progress and still be eternally God.  Otherwise it will come across as you are intentionally lying about our doctrine for some reason.

[ZealouslyStriving]

37 minutes ago, theplains said:

The LDS Father and Son became Gods so they are not eternally God (uppercase g).

Here is a short video with Ostler to get you started:

 

 

[Clear]

While I don't care to enter this debate, I thought I would like to offer some ancient literary Hebraic context to this discussion since the ancient concepts seem (to me) to relate to your discussion.

 

1) ANCIENT HEBRAIC TRADITIONS RELATING TO AN EONS-LIKE PROCESS OF BECOMING "GOD-LIKE"

There are early Hebrew traditions that relate to this discussion regarding those who are like God (or "God-like").  

For example, the Talmud itself describes that there have been 974 worlds that were created before this world and is related to the concept that some spirits have become God-like.

For example, In the Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) literature, the text speaks of those who became like God (or “God like”).  For example, the 4Q400 text speaks repeatedly of those who became God like. 

or example, the text says: "...the God of ], godlike ones of all the holies of the holy ones; and in His divinity among the eternally holy the holies of the holy ones, and they have become for Him priests of …. ministers of the presence in His glorious shrine. In the assembly of all the gods of godlike ones. He inscribed His statutes concerning all spiritual matters and precepts of knowledge, people of discernment, honoured by God.    Translation by Newsom (1998, 176–178).  

לאלוהי [ה אלוהי כול קדושׁי קדושׁים ובאלוהותו בקדושׁיעד קדושׁי קדושׁים ויהיו לו לכוהני

משׁרתי פנים בדביר כבודו בעדה לכול אלי אלוהים חרת חוקיו לכול מעשׁי רוח ומשׁפטי

דעת עם בינות כבודי אלוהים אלוהים חרת חוקיו לכול מעשׁי רוח ומשׁפטי

 

Such texts are reminiscent of and resonate with and offer a Hebraic context to some New Testament narratives such as 1 Cor 8:1-6: “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 

 IF such Hebraic traditions regarding the "God of Gods" and "Lord of Lords" regarding the creation of many worlds and the tutoring of innumerable spirits over eons of time, they creates an ancient Hebraic context for understanding the Enochian literatures discussion of those who have been through mortality before and have returned to God in a morally improved condition.

For example:

Rabbi Ishmael relates Enochs teaching: “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.    He bore me up with him, and, taking me by his hand, he led me to the throne of glory and showed me those souls which have already been created and have returned, flying above the throne of glory in the presence of the Holy One, blessed be he. 

 Then I went and expounded this verse, and found with regard to the text “The spirit shall clothe itself in my presence, and the souls which I have made.” 

 That “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.”   (3rd Enoch 43:1-3)   (I might note that being "created" in the vernacular refers to becoming mortal i.e. the placing of a spirit into a body.  c.f. abbaton)

IF, such early Hebrew traditions are correct that God has been creating many worlds over eons of time, and thus engaging spirits with mortal and moral tutoring experiences, and the early Hebrew doctrine is correct that some of the righteous return and become, (in some manner), “God-like” over eons, then such Hebrew doctrines form a context and way to explain and coordinate certain scriptural observations.

 

In any case, good luck in your discussion.

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

The passages in Isaiah are clear enough.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may 
know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, 
neither shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am 
the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared 
it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know 
not any" (Isaiah 44:8).

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, 
though thou hast not known me" (Isaiah 45:5).

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth 
and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be 
inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else" (Isaiah 45:18).

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared 
this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there 
is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto 
me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else" 
(Isaiah 45:21-22). 

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, 
and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9).

Only if you ignore the rest of the Bible.

 

 

[CV75]

22 hours ago, theplains said:

The passages in Isaiah are clear enough.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may 
know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, 
neither shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am 
the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared 
it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know 
not any" (Isaiah 44:8).

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, 
though thou hast not known me" (Isaiah 45:5).

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth 
and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be 
inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else" (Isaiah 45:18).

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared 
this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there 
is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto 
me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else" 
(Isaiah 45:21-22). 

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, 
and there is none like me" (Isaiah 46:9).

Yes, they are clear but you are still not answering my questions, so this is not a productive critical, comparative exchange of beliefs between individuals as you indicated it was some 10+ weeks ago, and for which you "thanked" me. Posted August 5 

 

[GoCeltics]

On 10/16/2025 at 2:03 PM, Calm said:

Out of curiosity what do you believe “reign[ing]” entails?

I don’t know all that it entails but 1 Corinthians 6:1-3 gives us a little picture. In some ways, it will be the ultimate fulfillment of Genesis 1:26-28. We see more in Revelation 2:26-27.

[GoCeltics]

On 10/16/2025 at 11:15 AM, teddyaware said:

Reign how and over what? In case you missed it, the Savior testifies that the nature of the reign of those who overcome the world will be just like his, for they will follow in his same path and footsteps.

Does that require us to become Gods first?

On 10/16/2025 at 11:15 AM, teddyaware said:

I’m wondering how exactly you see the following supreme promises of the Savior being fulfilled? Two questions:

1) Precisely who and what are the nations that those who become kings in heaven going to rule over with a rod of iron, in the same way that the Lord himself reigns over this world?

I'm not sure what the status of nations will be after all the tribulation and destruction during the events surrounding the return of Christ and the final battle with the beast, false prophet, and their armies.

On 10/16/2025 at 11:15 AM, teddyaware said:

2) What does the Lord mean in verse 26 when he says, “even as I received of my Father?” Please answer plainly and be specific?

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

 

Christ would ultimately rule when all would be subjected to him. This rule was not his in his human form.

[ZealouslyStriving]

21 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

I don’t know all that it entails but 1 Corinthians 6:1-3 gives us a little picture. In some ways, it will be the ultimate fulfillment of Genesis 1:26-28. We see more in Revelation 2:26-27.

Just curious...

Were Adam and Eve married joined together marriage by God, before the Fall, in that original purpose found in the verses highlighted?

If so, why do you reject the concept of eternal marriage, if that was a component of the original purpose and the state to which the righteous are destined to return?

 

Edited October 18, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving