Duncan Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 Obviously on nearly every Temple the Angel Moroni is playing a Trump and the scripture that I see used is Revelation 14:6. In that verse though it doesn't have anything to do with anybody playing any musical instrument and how do we know it's talking about Moroni? Does anybody know how Moroni came to be playing an instrument on top of Temples?
Jane_Doe Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 A horn is symbolic of heralding or proclaiming something, such as the angel in Rev 14:6.
Duncan Posted February 24, 2017 Author Posted February 24, 2017 Just now, Jane_Doe said: A horn is symbolic of heralding or proclaiming something, such as the angel in Rev 14:6. could they use any other musical instrument? to me the verse says preaching the gospel, I guess it could be just Moroni standing there or something
PeterPear Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, Duncan said: could they use any other musical instrument? to me the verse says preaching the gospel, I guess it could be just Moroni standing there or something Since everytime I see your selfie it reminds me of Napolean Dynamite, would a trombone be acceptable?
Jane_Doe Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 14 minutes ago, Duncan said: could they use any other musical instrument? to me the verse says preaching the gospel, I guess it could be just Moroni standing there or something But just standing there doesn't really convey the symbolic message of heralding something. 1
Ahab Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, Duncan said: could they use any other musical instrument? I don't think a flugelhorn would convey the same symbolic message, or a trumpet either. The trump he is symbolically using doesn't have any keys/buttons to change the tune, or any twists or turns in the instrument. Think of what heralds used in the old days when kings lived in castles and a herald was blowing his horn to announce the king is coming, or was issuing a decree. Usually more than one horn, all blowing at the same time. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 That particular angel isn't listed as using a trumpet, but many others arehttps://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=trumpet&testament=nt&type=verse Perhaps one of these verses also refers to that angel.
Gray Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 49 minutes ago, Duncan said: could they use any other musical instrument? to me the verse says preaching the gospel, I guess it could be just Moroni standing there or something Like an accordion? 1
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Duncan said: how do we know it's talking about Moroni? Actually, this is the more interesting question. 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. We know it's Moroni on top of the temples because that's who the sculptor said it was intended to be. As for the angel in Revelation 14:6 being Moroni, that is a little more open to interpretation. I have known people who believe it to be someone else. I guess the question is "who restored the gospel that is to be preached to all nations"? I have heard that Peter would be a better choice since he restored the Melchizedek priesthood. Or Moses since he restored the keys of gathering. Moroni did restore the Book of Mormon but is that the "everlasting gospel" that is to be preached? Maybe.
JAHS Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 in Mathew: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt 24: 31) The Nauvoo Temple was the first to have a horizontal angel attached to the lightning rod in the form of a weather vane. The angel held a book with one hand while pressing a horn to its lips with the other. This angel was probably meant to be a representation of the angel mentioned in the above scripture but was not identified as Moroni at the time. The original idea to use a Moroni statue as we see on today's temples came from sculptor Cyrus Dallin. LDS Church President Wilford Woodruff had asked Dallin to create something for the central spire of the Salt Lake Temple, so Dallin searched through LDS scripture for inspiration and decided to sculpt Moroni because he believed Moroni was a good representation of the restoration of the gospel. From then on it was simply a matter of tradition and respect for Moroni that a representation of him be placed on latter-day temples. It was not as if church leaders made a choice between Moroni and Jesus or any other person; it simply seemed an appropriate reminder for all members of the fulfillment of prophecy. 2
smac97 Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Duncan said: Obviously on nearly every Temple the Angel Moroni is playing a Trump and the scripture that I see used is Revelation 14:6. In that verse though it doesn't have anything to do with anybody playing any musical instrument and how do we know it's talking about Moroni? Does anybody know how Moroni came to be playing an instrument on top of Temples? There are numerous scriptural references which link angels to trumpets (or "trumps"). See here and here. See also here: Quote Why does the statue {of Moroni on LDS temples} hold a trumpet? The trumpet, which is held in Moroni's right hand, symbolizes the spreading of the gospel and the Second Coming of the Savior. In Matthew 24:31, it states that the angels with trumpets will gather the righteous together for the coming of the Lord. Every statue of the Angel Moroni atop a temple has this symbol. Source: New Era magazine There are six different sculpted versions of the Angel Moroni used on LDS temples (see above link). Of these, three of them have the Moroni figure carrying a representation of a message in his left hand (two have him holding the Gold Plates, and one has him holding a scroll) See also this (from the New Era link above): Quote The only version of the angel Moroni figure that doesn’t hold a horn is the one sculpted by Torlief Knaphus for the Hill Cumorah Monument. Knaphus’s Moroni is raising his right arm in a gesture of priesthood authority. The Knaphus statue does have him holding the Plates, though. See also here: Quote The original angel Moroni statue was inspired by Revelation 14. Cyrus E. Dallin, who designed this original angel Moroni, suggested the upright design we see today based off of his study of Revelation 14 and other LDS literature. And this (same link): Quote The first angel “statue” was actually a weathervane. The Nauvoo temple was the first to have angel on a spire, and it was a simple weather vane depicting a non-specific angel of the restoration. Here's a pic: Thanks, -Smac Edited February 24, 2017 by smac97 3
Gray Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 Would this trumpet be more like a shofar? Or would the NT writers have had something like brass horns in mind? 1
JulieM Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Duncan said: Obviously on nearly every Temple the Angel Moroni is playing a Trump and the scripture that I see used is Revelation 14:6. In that verse though it doesn't have anything to do with anybody playing any musical instrument and how do we know it's talking about Moroni? Does anybody know how Moroni came to be playing an instrument on top of Temples? The Nauvoo Temple had the first angel on it (a weathervane) and it was not Moroni. Here a picture and info: 1840’s Nauvoo “Flying Angel” AN EARLY ANGEL: The first angel placed on an LDS temple was the original Nauvoo Illinois Temple built in the 1840’s and destroyed by fire in 1848. The angel fulfilled a tri-functional purpose as religious symbol, weather vane, and lightning rod. This statue did not officially represent an angel Moroni. It was depicting a “Flying Angel”, as inspired by Revelation 14:6, “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.” Here's the link and the article goes on to tell how it evolved into Angel Moroni and who was commissioned to sculpt it: https://mormonsoprano.com/2010/01/04/mormon-trivia-angel-moroni-statue/ Here's another link with info: https://www.lds.org/new-era/2009/11/looking-up-to-moroni?lang=eng 1
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, JulieM said: 1840’s Nauvoo “Flying Angel” This statue did not officially represent an angel Moroni. It was depicting a “Flying Angel”, as inspired by Revelation 14:6 That's what I thought. Revelation 14 hasn't always been connected to Moroni in the Church. I do wonder where they got the design for this Nauvoo angel. Edited February 24, 2017 by JLHPROF 1
Jeanne Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 Just now, JLHPROF said: That's what I thought. Revelation 14 hasn't always been connected to Moroni in the Church. I do wonder where they got the design for this Nauvoo angel. Aside from Moroni (Book of Mormon)..isn't there something in the Book of Revelation in the New Testament about Trumpets?
clarkgoble Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 I confess the trump has always bugged me for stupid reasons. First off our big symbol has a trump (not trumpet which has valves) but we don't let brass instruments play in church. Always a pet peeve when I saw violinists play solos and I was stuck with my trombone. It always bugged me especially with an organ making music by blowing air through brass pipes. I bet most people who played brass felt the same way. Second the Rev 14 bit is what I always heart except the trump isn't there. The only music described is harpists in verse 2 and singers in verse 3. So they don't even get the instrument right if they're following Rev 14. Personally I think a sickle would have made far more sense although one can understand why they wouldn't want that.
clarkgoble Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Aside from Moroni (Book of Mormon)..isn't there something in the Book of Revelation in the New Testament about Trumpets? Paul talks about the last trump, but it's the calling for the resurrection not hearing the gospel. It happens when Jesus comes from heaven in glory a second time. My sense is that something got conflated so the original angel in Nauvoo got mixed up with 1 Thess 4:16. By the time they make the modern statue they just followed what was on Nauvoo. I don't believe for a second it's based on Rev 14. Edited February 24, 2017 by clarkgoble
Jeanne Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That's what I thought. Revelation 14 hasn't always been connected to Moroni in the Church. I do wonder where they got the design for this Nauvoo angel. Thanks..i thought I was crazy but read Revelations alot back in the day. I don't know about the design..it is beautiful..but a mandolin would have been nice too.
clarkgoble Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 39 minutes ago, Gray said: Would this trumpet be more like a shofar? Or would the NT writers have had something like brass horns in mind? Not too many shofar like that in mesoAmerica. (grin) Maybe a seashell or ceramic horn?
ksfisher Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Moroni did restore the Book of Mormon but is that the "everlasting gospel" that is to be preached? Maybe. The Book of Mormon does contain the gospel. And Moroni's visit to Joseph Smith to tell him about the book could be looked at as heralding the events that the translation of the Book of Mormon began. Seems as good a choice as any. 1
Gray Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 37 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Not too many shofar like that in mesoAmerica. (grin) Maybe a seashell or ceramic horn? Right, I guess I was thinking in the passage from Revelation.
The Nehor Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Moroni can't carry a tune and finds our temple decoration amusing. Edited February 24, 2017 by The Nehor
VideoGameJunkie Posted February 26, 2017 Posted February 26, 2017 I play the trumpet so I love that angel Moroni plays one too.
dberrie2000 Posted February 26, 2017 Posted February 26, 2017 On 2/24/2017 at 1:46 PM, Duncan said: Obviously on nearly every Temple the Angel Moroni is playing a Trump and the scripture that I see used is Revelation 14:6. In that verse though it doesn't have anything to do with anybody playing any musical instrument and how do we know it's talking about Moroni? Does anybody know how Moroni came to be playing an instrument on top of Temples? I like this one: Isaiah 18:3---King James Version (KJV) 3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye. 1
theplains Posted February 27, 2017 Posted February 27, 2017 On 24/02/2017 at 2:14 PM, Jane_Doe said: A horn is symbolic of heralding or proclaiming something, such as the angel in Rev 14:6. Rev 14:6-8 - "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." None of these angels is Moroni. Jim
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