How Do You Repent?

[JVW]

For over 15 years I have had this question. As a missionary I taught a lot about repentance, and I always remarked that I am bad at repenting. The more that I've had conversations with others the more I've come to realize that I don't know if anyone really knows how to repent. Here's a few questions I have about repentance and then I'll share my current thoughts on it.

- Can an atheist repent?

- What is the end result of repentance?

- How do you repent? Is it just saying sorry to the one you hurt and trying to reconcile?

- What even needs to be repented of? There's no way I can recognize all of the sins I commit every day. So is it just apologizing whenever I feel sorry about something, even if that something isn't a sin but I still feel bad about it?

As far as I can tell, there is no explicit instruction or definition of repentance in the scriptures. My current thoughts on repentance are that an atheist cannot repent unless they change their beliefs and begin to believe in Jesus Christ. That Jesus is central to, and necessary for, repentance. That the end result of repentance is healing and a change of heart. An example of this being a child wanting to eat the ABC gum under the table and the parents have to restrain them, but that same child as a teen is repulsed by the same gum. I do not think that repentance is so much about listing all of the things I've done wrong and checking them off on a list. I think it's more about recognizing in what ways I've lost focus of the Savior and apologizing and trying to make right any damage I've done to my relationship with him.

What do you all think? I would love to one day be really good at repenting, and I hope that I can learn from you all here.

[Tony uk]

I think for an atheist to repent would be impossible. There would need to be a belief in God, Jesus, the Bible and an understanding of Christianity.

[The Nehor]

The end result is supposedly a change of heart where you no longer desire to do sins.

I must be really bad at repenting despite spending a lot of time trying to do it.

Edited March 31, 2025 by The Nehor

[JVW]

27 minutes ago, Tony uk said:

I think for an atheist to repent would be impossible. There would need to be a belief in God, Jesus, the Bible and an understanding of Christianity.

Why do you say that? Isn't repentance nearly synonymous with change or apology? Where does God factor into it?

[rpn]

Recognize what you've done as against God's laws.

Stop doing it.

Confess to God in prayer.

Confess to those who have been hurt because of what you did (unless doing so would cause greater harm to the innocent --- a decision that likely requires bishops or other trustworthy thirty party oversight to make sure we don't delude ourselves and are merely trying to avoid this often very hard step.)

Confess to bishop if sin is a serious sin as I identified in the Church Handbook as needing confession to him.

Make restitution (see preceding limitation of not making things worth and needing trustworthy input from someone in making any such decisions).  But also note that full restitution may require more than just doing something to a victim.   You need to as much as is possible (and if not possible then sacrificial _________________) to make it fully right for all of those immediately and tangentially that are within your mortal power to do.   It's about changing your heart fully.

Never do it again  (if you ever do it or anything like it again, then you haven't repented the first time either).

There is also some element of being a good example for others that can be required as well, especially if your sin's impact (or its disclosure) caused damage beyond the immediate effects).    It's is about fully changing your heart so you have no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually.

 

 

 

 

[JVW]

12 minutes ago, rpn said:

Recognize what you've done as against God's laws.

Stop doing it.

Confess to God in prayer.

Confess to those who have been hurt because of what you did (unless doing so would cause greater harm to the innocent --- a decision that likely requires bishops or other trustworthy thirty party oversight to make sure we don't delude ourselves and are merely trying to avoid this often very hard step.)

Confess to bishop if sin is a serious sin as I identified in the Church Handbook as needing confession to him.

Make restitution (see preceding limitation of not making things worth and needing trustworthy input from someone in making any such decisions).  But also note that full restitution may require more than just doing something to a victim.   You need to as much as is possible (and if not possible then sacrificial _________________) to make it fully right for all of those immediately and tangentially that are within your mortal power to do.   It's about changing your heart fully.

Never do it again  (if you ever do it or anything like it again, then you haven't repented the first time either).

There is also some element of being a good example for others that can be required as well, especially if your sin's impact (or its disclosure) caused damage beyond the immediate effects).    It's is about fully changing your heart so you have no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually.

So basically I just need to have really good willpower and self-discipline and then I will be good at repenting? Am I reading that right? So if I have a temper and I yell at people every day when I get pissed off... If I have good willpower then one day I can wake up and tell God, "sorry, I'm not going to yell at people anymore." and then I just bite my tongue magically for the rest of my life. But if my nature is that I have weak willpower then I'll never be able to repent of it and I just lost the genetic lottery? And there's always the possibility that my willpower isn't quite strong enough, so I quit yelling for like a week but then I slip up so I actually didn't really repent the first time?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

Why do you say that? Isn't repentance nearly synonymous with change or apology? Where does God factor into it?

I think most people assume the religions definition of repent in this topic, which is to repent of sin.  Besides that, I doubt any atheist would try to argue for that label since it is so intertwined with a belief in God.

If someone murders someone (to use an extreme example), how would they repent of that without bring God into it?  Would saying sorry for purposefully killing someone be properly termed as a repentance?  I guess maybe, but I've always viewed the word as much deeper and complex than that would suggest.  It seems like so much more than an apology.

[MustardSeed]

Announce in fast meeting if there’s anyone who’s ever been offended…. 
 

More seriously, I like Janis Abrahms Spring’s How Can I Forgive You (not a religion text) as a great formula for repentance in the context of a relationship. 

[Rain]

5 hours ago, JVW said:

For over 15 years I have had this question. As a missionary I taught a lot about repentance, and I always remarked that I am bad at repenting. The more that I've had conversations with others the more I've come to realize that I don't know if anyone really knows how to repent. Here's a few questions I have about repentance and then I'll share my current thoughts on it.

- Can an atheist repent?

To be clear, I'm no longer a believing member.  I believe in God, but not the church and I'm not sure of my beliefs about the atonement.  

I think an atheist can repent.  Overall, repentance creates a changed heart. If no one is perfect at repentance and everyone just does their best, I don't know why an atheist can't do his best job at repentance too. 

I think most people miss perfect repentance with restitution.  I mean you can try to make restitution, but in reality I think there is a lot of butterfly effect that happens and who can ever really even know how to restore all that let alone actually do it.  So if people can try to repent without  restitution then people can try to repent without a belief in God and the repentance label.

An atheist might not believe in sins, but most of them, just like most Christians believe they do things wrong. Christians just put the sin label on it. 

Also, with the doctrine, it's not like the atonement skips the atheists.

5 hours ago, JVW said:

- What is the end result of repentance?

When I was really struggling with the church I got called as gospel doctrine teacher. One of the lessons (I don't remember which one, but in the OT or NT) had something about repentance.  As I read through it, it felt to me that the result was a changed heart - felt that was what the reading meant and what my heart was telling me. 

I went through conference talks and lessons to find the steps of repentance and as I read through them I found those steps while good for a child, actually kind of halted my progress as an adult. That I was more concerned about making sure I had done them than the state of my heart  Talking about in class I was not alone.  

5 hours ago, JVW said:

- How do you repent? Is it just saying sorry to the one you hurt and trying to reconcile?

I think it will depend on the situation. Some things are going to require so much more than other things. 

5 hours ago, JVW said:

- What even needs to be repented of? There's no way I can recognize all of the sins I commit every day. So is it just apologizing whenever I feel sorry about something, even if that something isn't a sin but I still feel bad about it?

My husband has had great anxiety and panic attacks.  One day he told me that he didn't like seeing for sale signs in our neighborhood. "What if the new owner got a job, so he bought the house, but then lost the job and lost the house. Then it would be my fault." 

If that had actually happened it would have been silly for my husband to apologize for even though he would have felt sorry.  

No, you don't need to repent if it's not a sin, but it MAY be a sin not to apologize for something you did that was not a sin.

5 hours ago, JVW said:

As far as I can tell, there is no explicit instruction or definition of repentance in the scriptures. My current thoughts on repentance are that an atheist cannot repent unless they change their beliefs and begin to believe in Jesus Christ. That Jesus is central to, and necessary for, repentance. That the end result of repentance is healing and a change of heart. An example of this being a child wanting to eat the ABC gum under the table and the parents have to restrain them, but that same child as a teen is repulsed by the same gum. I do not think that repentance is so much about listing all of the things I've done wrong and checking them off on a list. I think it's more about recognizing in what ways I've lost focus of the Savior and apologizing and trying to make right any damage I've done to my relationship with him.

What do you all think? I would love to one day be really good at repenting, and I hope that I can learn from you all here.

 

Edited April 1, 2025 by Rain

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, JVW said:

..............................

- Can an atheist repent?

................

 

6 hours ago, Tony uk said:

I think for an atheist to repent would be impossible. There would need to be a belief in God, Jesus, the Bible and an understanding of Christianity.

Nope.  One doesn't have to be a Christian or have a belief in God(s) to repent.  Jews believe deeply in repentance.  They even have a term for someone who is repentant, Ba'al tshuvah בעל תשובה.  Buddhists (who have no God) and atheists can also repent.  First they need to feel sorrow for their wicked and uncaring, unfeeling ways   The only folks not likely to repent, because they don't understand the concept, would be sociopaths.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, rpn said:

Recognize what you've done as against God's laws.

Stop doing it.

Confess to God in prayer.

Feeling sorrow for having hurt others probably comes first.  That may further with maturity.

5 hours ago, rpn said:

Confess to those who have been hurt because of what you did (unless doing so would cause greater harm to the innocent --- a decision that likely requires bishops or other trustworthy thirty party oversight to make sure we don't delude ourselves and are merely trying to avoid this often very hard step.)

Confess to bishop if sin is a serious sin as I identified in the Church Handbook as needing confession to him.

Good advice for anyone who considers the severity of the problem to require it.  Talk to pastor, rabbi, priest, or trusted figure.

5 hours ago, rpn said:

Make restitution ........ to make it fully right for all of those immediately and tangentially that are within your mortal power to do.   It's about changing your heart fully.

Never do it again  (if you ever do it or anything like it again, then you haven't repented the first time either).

...................   It's is about fully changing your heart so you have no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually.

All of us are flawed.  Flawed people cannot be perfected in this life.  Hugh Nibley always said that the principle of repentance is wonderful because it is free, and because we need it all the time.  As long as we live, we need to continually and sincerely repent.  That is what the Lord asks of us.  Then, someday, we may rise incorruptible, our consciences clear -- by God's grace.

[Tony uk]

11 hours ago, JVW said:

Why do you say that? Isn't repentance nearly synonymous with change or apology? Where does God factor into it?

I think that I could have worded my post a bit better than I did, sorry.

 In the first instance, as a Christian. In my own mind, repentance as a Christian. This would require belief in God, and to understand what God expects of us, such as moral behaviour. When we do wrong, for us to fully understand what we have done. As such to repent by asking for forgiveness, and trying to make right out wrong.

In the second instance, I was thinking solely from a Christian perspective. I accept there is an understanding of the difference between right and wrong among all people. So, all people can understand when they have done wrong, and they can try and make amends.

I appreciate the replies to my own post, and given me the opportunity to think more about the matter.

[ZealouslyStriving]

This may come as a shock, but I believe non-believers can repent. If people would just heed the call to repent of bad behavior the world would already be a better place.

Now repentance, absent faith and ordinances, can only get you so far eternally, but one will be further along than one who doesn't. 

Edited April 1, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[JVW]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think most people assume the religions definition of repent in this topic, which is to repent of sin.  Besides that, I doubt any atheist would try to argue for that label since it is so intertwined with a belief in God.

If someone murders someone (to use an extreme example), how would they repent of that without bring God into it?  Would saying sorry for purposefully killing someone be properly termed as a repentance?  I guess maybe, but I've always viewed the word as much deeper and complex than that would suggest.  It seems like so much more than an apology.

I think repentance is like the word 'tithing'. It came from religious text and is inseparable from religion. Therefore, I think that God is a necessary component for repentance.

15 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Announce in fast meeting if there’s anyone who’s ever been offended…. 
 

More seriously, I like Janis Abrahms Spring’s How Can I Forgive You (not a religion text) as a great formula for repentance in the context of a relationship. 

Thanks for the rec. I will look for it at the library.

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nope.  One doesn't have to be a Christian or have a belief in God(s) to repent.  Jews believe deeply in repentance.  They even have a term for someone who is repentant, Ba'al tshuvah בעל תשובה.  Buddhists (who have no God) and atheists can also repent.  First they need to feel sorrow for their wicked and uncaring, unfeeling ways   The only folks not likely to repent, because they don't understand the concept, would be sociopaths.

Jews may not be Christian but they worship the same God that Christians do. The God of Israel is the one who is tied to repentance, we just refer to Him by an additional name. I assume that Muslims also worship the God of Israel as well so they would be included in the same group who can repent -if- Jesus is required for repentance.

Those who do not believe in the Bible and in the commandments will have different definitions of sin, or what is wrong. There may be some overlap based on their religious texts, but in the case of an atheist with no religious text who believes in moral relativism, there ultimately is no true right and wrong as that is determined by the culture, society, and government one finds themselves living in.

28 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

This may come as a shock, but I believe non-believers can repent. If people would just heed the call to repent of bad behavior the world would already be a better place.

Now repentance, absent faith and ordinances, can only get you so far eternally, but one will be further along than one who doesn't. 

The question for you is this. Isn't a prerequisite to repentance faith in Jesus Christ? So a non-believer is called to repentance but in order to do it they first need to believe in the God of Israel and after that point they would no longer be considered a non-believer?

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, JVW said:

I think repentance is like the word 'tithing'. It came from religious text and is inseparable from religion. Therefore, I think that God is a necessary component for repentance.

Thanks for the rec. I will look for it at the library.

Jews may not be Christian but they worship the same God that Christians do. The God of Israel is the one who is tied to repentance, we just refer to Him by an additional name. I assume that Muslims also worship the God of Israel as well so they would be included in the same group who can repent -if- Jesus is required for repentance.

Those who do not believe in the Bible and in the commandments will have different definitions of sin, or what is wrong. There may be some overlap based on their religious texts, but in the case of an atheist with no religious text who believes in moral relativism, there ultimately is no true right and wrong as that is determined by the culture, society, and government one finds themselves living in.

The question for you is this. Isn't a prerequisite to repentance faith in Jesus Christ? So a non-believer is called to repentance but in order to do it they first need to believe in the God of Israel and after that point they would no longer be considered a non-believer?

I think a lot of it depends on whether or not a person believes that the concept of forgiveness from a higher power is tied to repentance.  From my perspective, they are inseparably tied but I can see why others don't see it that way. 

A person who does not believe in God can certain feel deep sorrow for things they did that they believe were wrong for whatever reason, and they can provide restitution as much as they are able and completely change their lives to eschew their previous wrongdoing.  I can see why some would define that as repentance, even without there being any seeking of forgiveness from a power or Being of a higher order than they are. 

In those cases repentance is about righting a wrong done to their personal moral code, I think, since there is no Lawgiver to satisfied or worry about.  They are their own god, so to speak, and they seek forgiveness from violating their own sense of ethics.   There is a lot that is similar to "religious" repenting, but there are some pretty big differences as well.

[JVW]

15 hours ago, Rain said:

To be clear, I'm no longer a believing member.  I believe in God, but not the church and I'm not sure of my beliefs about the atonement.  

I think an atheist can repent.  Overall, repentance creates a changed heart. If no one is perfect at repentance and everyone just does their best, I don't know why an atheist can't do his best job at repentance too. 

Your remarks here remind me of the myriad webtoons (Korean comics) I've read. They are permeated by a unique culture rooted in Eastern tradition (Bhuddism, Taoism) but with western modernism. One theme that consistently stands out in the young adult male genre of action comics is that the main character made mistakes which resulted in the end of the world and right as he is about to be vanquished and the world overrun by the forces of demons and evil he is warped back in time 10 years with the task to prevent the calamity from ever happening due to his knowledge of the future. After going back in time the main character is able to live a perfect life, making no mistakes, as they prepare with utmost zeal for the end that is surely to come.

This theme is what appeals to the readers, it is what makes this genre in the industry make money, it is what the young men fantasize about. In a godless society the young men are reading fantasy tales about being able to go back in time and live a perfect life. The implications here are that people are living with regret and wish they could undo mistakes they've made in the past. Anyone dreaming of that has not repented, which reminds me of something else that maybe repentance offers beyond a change of heart.

Repentance also offers a clear conscience, relief, a lightening of the burden, that sort of thing. While people may talk as if they feel this way, I think there are a lot of sins that build up over time that carry weight, and people deceive themselves into thinking they've let them go when in reality they've actually shoved the pain into a deep, subconscious corner of their mind to be ignored.

An interesting aside, another common theme in these types of comics is ascending to godhood in order to overthrow God, who is regarded as evil.

15 hours ago, Rain said:

I think most people miss perfect repentance with restitution.  I mean you can try to make restitution, but in reality I think there is a lot of butterfly effect that happens and who can ever really even know how to restore all that let alone actually do it.  So if people can try to repent without  restitution then people can try to repent without a belief in God and the repentance label.

I think this may be why God is necessary, because he can perfectly restore everyone in ways that we can't. God works on the heart, we work on material damages and behavior.

15 hours ago, Rain said:

An atheist might not believe in sins, but most of them, just like most Christians believe they do things wrong. Christians just put the sin label on it. 

Doing something "wrong" and "sin" are two completely different things. There is a huge chasm that separates subjective and objective moral law. Sin is breaking objective moral law set by God. Doing something wrong is doing something contrary to the culture, society, and government laws that you live in and expose yourself to.

It used to be that people would feel like they were doing something wrong when they smoked pot. But now that it's legal and social views have shifted people don't feel like it's wrong anymore. So if someone in the 30's was a pothead, felt bad about it, and repented then could it have really been repentance under a relative moral standard? It is impossible to repent of smoking pot today under that same standard because if you feel bad about it, you are the one that's wrong because you aren't doing anything wrong.

15 hours ago, Rain said:

Also, with the doctrine, it's not like the atonement skips the atheists.

Every aspect of life is sustained by, and permeated with, the power given through Christ's sacrifice. However, that power does not usurp a person's ability to choose. If repentance is about becoming one with God, and the atonement certainly makes this a possibility, then a person needs to be intentional about it. But if repentance is just about becoming a better person, then that power is available to all without directly acknowledging their creator, assuming that we can become better people without God which may be up for debate.

15 hours ago, Rain said:

When I was really struggling with the church I got called as gospel doctrine teacher. One of the lessons (I don't remember which one, but in the OT or NT) had something about repentance.  As I read through it, it felt to me that the result was a changed heart - felt that was what the reading meant and what my heart was telling me. 

I agree with you. I do not have the ability to change my own heart though. I can get used to new routines, or adapt to new environments, which will tweak what I find myself doing and what I'm interested in. But ultimately, whatever circumstances I find myself in I'm still me, with the same strengths and flaws, and I have been entirely unsuccessful at changing who I am at my core. God has changed my heart on several occasions though. 

15 hours ago, Rain said:

I went through conference talks and lessons to find the steps of repentance and as I read through them I found those steps while good for a child, actually kind of halted my progress as an adult. That I was more concerned about making sure I had done them than the state of my heart  Talking about in class I was not alone.  

I think it will depend on the situation. Some things are going to require so much more than other things. 

My husband has had great anxiety and panic attacks.  One day he told me that he didn't like seeing for sale signs in our neighborhood. "What if the new owner got a job, so he bought the house, but then lost the job and lost the house. Then it would be my fault." 

If that had actually happened it would have been silly for my husband to apologize for even though he would have felt sorry.  

No, you don't need to repent if it's not a sin, but it MAY be a sin not to apologize for something you did that was not a sin.

Agreed

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

I think repentance is like the word 'tithing'. It came from religious text and is inseparable from religion. Therefore, I think that God is a necessary component for repentance.

Thanks for the rec. I will look for it at the library.

Jews may not be Christian but they worship the same God that Christians do. The God of Israel is the one who is tied to repentance, we just refer to Him by an additional name. I assume that Muslims also worship the God of Israel as well so they would be included in the same group who can repent -if- Jesus is required for repentance.

Those who do not believe in the Bible and in the commandments will have different definitions of sin, or what is wrong. There may be some overlap based on their religious texts, but in the case of an atheist with no religious text who believes in moral relativism, there ultimately is no true right and wrong as that is determined by the culture, society, and government one finds themselves living in.

The question for you is this. Isn't a prerequisite to repentance faith in Jesus Christ? So a non-believer is called to repentance but in order to do it they first need to believe in the God of Israel and after that point they would no longer be considered a non-believer?

Incorrect. Every man and woman born into this world is blessed with the elevating gift of spiritual discernment and empowerment called the of light of Christ. This ennobling gift of spiritual awareness and comprehension is “the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world” and is graciously given to each individual as a blessing extended to them through the love inspired atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and this so that they won’t have to struggle through the temptations, trials and challenges of this fallen mortal world while being utterly devoid of God’s enlightening, uplifting and empowering spiritual influence.

I wasn’t baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints until I was 20, but prior to that blessed day I was very aware of the difference between right wrong and often suffered the painful spiritual consequences that ensued after I consciously violated the indwelling light of Christ that was clearly warning me of the consequences that would inevitably follow if I ignored that inner spiritual voice that was vividly cautioning me that what I was about to do might indeed bring me a temporary measure of carnal pleasure, but that in the long run that wrong choice would backfire and rob me of joy and peace of conscience. As a consequence of experiencing the negative spiritual consequences of doing wrong before I was ever introduced to the restored gospel, there were many times when I mustered the gumption to modify and correct my thinking and behavior (an inborn intuitive manifestation of repentance) that palpably blessed my life for the better.

While it’s true that every man and woman will ultimately have to willingly choose Christ — either here or in the realm of the departed dead — if they are ever going to be able to inherit one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of post-resurrection glory, the fact remains that Lord has blessed ALL of his non-LDS children throughout the world with enough of his intuitive holy influence to enable them to make corrections and positive strides in the direction of spiritual progress and refinement if they have faith and wisdom to follow that blessed inward light’s holy promptings.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. (Moroni 7)

Edited April 1, 2025 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Incorrect. Every man and woman born into this world is blessed with the elevating gift of spiritual discernment and empowerment called the of light of Christ. This ennobling gift of spiritual awareness and comprehension is “the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world” and is graciously given to each individual as a blessing extended to them through the love inspired atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and this so that they won’t have to struggle through the temptations, trials and challenges of this fallen mortal world while being utterly devoid of God’s enlightening, uplifting and empowering spiritual influence.

I wasn’t baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints until I was 20, but prior to that blessed day I was very aware of the difference between right wrong and often suffered the painful spiritual consequences that ensued when I consciously violated the indwelling light of Christ that was clearly warning me of the consequences that would inevitably follow if I ignored that inner spiritual voice that was vividly cautioning me that what I was about to do might indeed bring me a temporary measure of carnal pleasure, but that in the long run that wrong choice would backfire and rob me of joy and peace of conscience. As a consequence of experiencing the negative spiritual consequences of doing wrong before I was ever introduced to the restored gospel, there were many times when I mustered the gumption to modify and correct my thinking and behavior (an inborn intuitive manifestation of repentance) that palpably blessed my life for the better.

While it’s true that every man and woman will ultimately have to willingly choose Christ — either here or in the realm of the departed dead — if they are ever going to be able to inherit one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of post-resurrection glory, the fact remains that Lord has blessed ALL of his non-LDS children throughout the world with enough of his intuitive holy influence to enable them to make positive strides in the direction of spiritual progress and refinement if they have faith and wisdom to follow that inward light’s holy promptings.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. (Moroni 7)

So if the Light of Christ doesn’t warn me against something it isn’t sin?

WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rain]

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

Your remarks here remind me of the myriad webtoons (Korean comics) I've read. They are permeated by a unique culture rooted in Eastern tradition (Bhuddism, Taoism) but with western modernism. One theme that consistently stands out in the young adult male genre of action comics is that the main character made mistakes which resulted in the end of the world and right as he is about to be vanquished and the world overrun by the forces of demons and evil he is warped back in time 10 years with the task to prevent the calamity from ever happening due to his knowledge of the future. After going back in time the main character is able to live a perfect life, making no mistakes, as they prepare with utmost zeal for the end that is surely to come.

This theme is what appeals to the readers, it is what makes this genre in the industry make money, it is what the young men fantasize about. In a godless society the young men are reading fantasy tales about being able to go back in time and live a perfect life. The implications here are that people are living with regret and wish they could undo mistakes they've made in the past.

Interesting that it's reminds you of that as that seems very different than I am thinking.

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

Anyone dreaming of that has not repented, which reminds me of something else that maybe repentance offers beyond a change of heart.

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

Repentance also offers a clear conscience, relief, a lightening of the burden, that sort of thing.

I agree.  I also think that can apply to atheists.

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

While people may talk as if they feel this way, I think there are a lot of sins that build up over time that carry weight, and people deceive themselves into thinking they've let them go when in reality they've actually shoved the pain into a deep, subconscious corner of their mind to be ignored.

I agree

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

An interesting aside, another common theme in these types of comics is ascending to godhood in order to overthrow God, who is regarded as evil.

Which is totally different than I think.

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

I think this may be why God is necessary, because he can perfectly restore everyone in ways that we can't. God works on the heart, we work on material damages and behavior.

Yes.

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

Doing something "wrong" and "sin" are two completely different things. There is a huge chasm that separates subjective and objective moral law. Sin is breaking objective moral law set by God. Doing something wrong is doing something contrary to the culture, society, and government laws that you live in and expose yourself to.

When I wrote what I did I was thinking about Ammon and King Lamoni.  Ammon tells him the Great Spirit is God.  Same being, different name.  Wrong to someone may be something that is culturally wrong, but it also may be a different label for sin.  The church teaches that all have access to the light of Christ which teaches good from evil.  That means atheists have it as well.  

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

It used to be that people would feel like they were doing something wrong when they smoked pot. But now that it's legal and social views have shifted people don't feel like it's wrong anymore. So if someone in the 30's was a pothead, felt bad about it, and repented then could it have really been repentance under a relative moral standard? It is impossible to repent of smoking pot today under that same standard because if you feel bad about it, you are the one that's wrong because you aren't doing anything wrong.

But under the church doctrine of the light of Christ it wouldn't matter.  Just because you don't know where that light comes from doesn't mean you don't use it to make choices.

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

Every aspect of life is sustained by, and permeated with, the power given through Christ's sacrifice. However, that power does not usurp a person's ability to choose.

And I'm not saying that it does.

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

If repentance is about becoming one with God, and the atonement certainly makes this a possibility, then a person needs to be intentional about it. But if repentance is just about becoming a better person, then that power is available to all without directly acknowledging their creator, assuming that we can become better people without God which may be up for debate.

I think God helps even those who don't believe in him so even if they don't believe in God they can be intentional about it and get his help and hopefully some day they will come to recognize his help.

The church allows for baptism after death. If they don't get baptized before death does that mean their accountability is gone?  No.  So if someone without a knowledge of God who is doing his best to repent it doesn't mean that the atonement is working without accountability.

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

I agree with you. I do not have the ability to change my own heart though. I can get used to new routines, or adapt to new environments, which will tweak what I find myself doing and what I'm interested in. But ultimately, whatever circumstances I find myself in I'm still me, with the same strengths and flaws, and I have been entirely unsuccessful at changing who I am at my core. God has changed my heart on several occasions though. 

I think atheists can allow God to change their hearts as well on any sin/wrong they are doing.

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

Agreed

 

[JVW]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Incorrect. Every man and woman born into this world is blessed with the elevating gift of spiritual discernment and empowerment called the of light of Christ. This ennobling gift of spiritual awareness and comprehension is “the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world” and is graciously given to each individual as a blessing extended to them through the love inspired atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and this so that they won’t have to struggle through the temptations, trials and challenges of this fallen mortal world while being utterly devoid of God’s enlightening, uplifting and empowering spiritual influence.

I wasn’t baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints until I was 20, but prior to that blessed day I was very aware of the difference between right wrong and often suffered the painful spiritual consequences that ensued after I consciously violated the indwelling light of Christ that was clearly warning me of the consequences that would inevitably follow if I ignored that inner spiritual voice that was vividly cautioning me that what I was about to do might indeed bring me a temporary measure of carnal pleasure, but that in the long run that wrong choice would backfire and rob me of joy and peace of conscience. As a consequence of experiencing the negative spiritual consequences of doing wrong before I was ever introduced to the restored gospel, there were many times when I mustered the gumption to modify and correct my thinking and behavior (an inborn intuitive manifestation of repentance) that palpably blessed my life for the better.

While it’s true that every man and woman will ultimately have to willingly choose Christ — either here or in the realm of the departed dead — if they are ever going to be able to inherit one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of post-resurrection glory, the fact remains that Lord has blessed ALL of his non-LDS children throughout the world with enough of his intuitive holy influence to enable them to make corrections and positive strides in the direction of spiritual progress and refinement if they have faith and wisdom to follow that blessed inward light’s holy promptings.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. (Moroni 7)

Based off of what you've written would it be correct to say that you believe that someone will repent before they come unto Christ if they weren't raised in a Christian environment? That repentance comes before faith in Jesus Christ because someone needs to follow the light of Christ which enables change and will ultimately lead someone to Christ?

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Based off of what you've written would it be correct to say that you believe that someone will repent before they come unto Christ if they weren't raised in a Christian environment? That repentance comes before faith in Jesus Christ because someone needs to follow the light of Christ which enables change and will ultimately lead someone to Christ?

Not really; I’ll explain. Many Latter-Day Saints are unaware of the fact that their scriptures plainly testify the only way for anyone to obtain even the lowest kingdom of post-resurrection heavenly glory is to come unto Christ and accept him as their personal Savior from physical and spiritual death. This misunderstanding usually comes about due to a misreading of portions of Doctrine and Covenants 76 that leave an incorrect impression unless the verses that lead to this common misunderstanding are read in full context. When these misunderstood verses are read and understood in full context of the succeeding verses, it becomes perfectly clear that the only way to be saved in any of the three post-resurrection heavenly kingdoms of glory is to exercise faith in Christ, repentance sins and reconciliation to God through Christ’s infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice. 

 

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

and…

 

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2)

I bring the aforementioned points of doctrine up as way to help you understand that in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints the only way anyone can obtain any degree of heavenly salvation is by consciously coming unto Christ in faith and humbly seeking from him an absolution of sins through an effective process of humble, sincere repentance. This is the ultimate destiny of all mankind, for all will need to humbly and sincerely accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and Deliverer from sin and death or they will by no means be able to obtain a salvation in any of God’s heavenly mansions of glory. This imperative process of the need to consciously come unto Christ for salvation applies to every individual who has lived, is living, or will yet to live upon this earth. None are exempt, including the multiple millions who never heard of Christ while sojourning on the earth.. This is the reason why the gospel of Christ is preached to ALL the dead, including all those who never heard of Christ and even those rejected Christ while in the flesh.

30 But behold, from among the righteous (dead), he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to ALL the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

Now that I’ve set the groundwork, I’ll be able to answer your question in a very simple way: The reason why the light of Christ and the basic understanding it spiritually conveys of good and evil to all men regardless of their culture, religion and circumstances, is so that when the gospel of Christ is finally preached to them it won’t seem like a totally foreign concept that they will be unable to comprehend and appreciate. All who have ever lived will eventually come to a vivid realization that the spirit of Christ was always a part of their lives, whether to a greater or lesser degree, and that it’s by coming into a fuller communion with that light that they will finally find peace, happiness, enlightenment and spiritual growth. Therefore the repentance processes that unbelievers experience prior to coming unto Christ might correctly be called a “preparatory repentance,” in other words a schoolmaster that opens the way for an even greater level of spiritual understanding.

Edited April 1, 2025 by teddyaware

[Calm]

5 hours ago, JVW said:

Your remarks here remind me of the myriad webtoons (Korean comics) I've read. They are permeated by a unique culture rooted in Eastern tradition (Bhuddism, Taoism) but with western modernism. One theme that consistently stands out in the young adult male genre of action comics is that the main character made mistakes which resulted in the end of the world and right as he is about to be vanquished and the world overrun by the forces of demons and evil he is warped back in time 10 years with the task to prevent the calamity from ever happening due to his knowledge of the future. After going back in time the main character is able to live a perfect life, making no mistakes, as they prepare with utmost zeal for the end that is surely to come.

Chinese and Korean*** shows are pretty common with some version of this theme (it’s typically their life being trashed, maybe the destruction of their family or even country as well, but have seen a few end of the world scenarios; I prefer the not quite so much of a disaster), though mostly it’s women going back, remember two males, including one that goes back to another person’s body so now he’s in a rich family. I have seen mostly males, but at least two females that I recall, more likely being  from a modern time being transported to several hundred years or more where their modern knowledge gives them an edge, often it’s more like a parallel world that has magic.  
 

It seems besides being a doctor, memorizing all the great poetry over the years is the best way to get ahead as everyone loves and respects great poets.

I typically love do overs where knowledge is kept, isn’t that everyone’s dream…to know how to live to maximize benefits and minimize pain?  There always comes a point it gets unpredictable because they have changed things enough, so there is still the testing of them if they have really learned a better way to live.

Quote

Anyone dreaming of that has not repented, which reminds me of something else that maybe repentance offers beyond a change of heart.

Naw, there are plenty of things that happened in my life that I would change that were not sins, but me doing the best I could with the information I have now.  The major ones I dream about sometimes…

First, would be refusing to accept the misdiagnoses that occurred for the first 35 years of my life. I would find the experts that were working on my disorder during that time, but not getting any attention yet.

Second, I would reject my dad’s well meaning advice and stay in physics, with a minor in psych so I would still run into my husband.

Third, would have just accepted my daughter being homeschooled and avoided her getting the wrong medication in our attempt to get her socializing more and back in school.

Then, I would insist my mother had to move by me to be taken care of as planned or my brother could be the one doing it.

None of the above are a result of me sinning nor do I need to repent even if I have regrets.  Lack of knowledge that is not available is not a sin.
 

***I assume Japanese, Malaysia, etc all have similar themes, but for some reason I haven’t been able to get into those performances as much as I have Korean and Chinese.  It’s a common theme in western culture as well (back to the future, all those time travel shows, Quantum Leap, Peggy Sue Got Married, etc, etc)

Edited April 1, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

19 hours ago, rpn said:

Never do it again  (if you ever do it or anything like it again, then you haven't repented the first time either).

This is the part I have a major problem with because too often it gets inferred that all the effort, the work with the Spirit even, is worthless, meaningless, we are back at square one if we stumble even if we lived for years and years without repeating the behaviour and did not actively seek to do it again, but for whatever reason we slipped some back into the rut we had pulled ourselves out of with God’s help and kept out of with God’s help up till then.

I think it’s an insult to the work and commitment of the individual and of God to label a relapse as meaning “you haven’t repented the first time”.  It feels similar, to be blunt, to those lessons on chastity with wood and a nail or a smashed cupcake.   It’s so all or nothing.  Perfectionism.  The Atonement only works for those who are perfect.

 All the effort to help others heal from the hurt, all those we did not hurt during that time because we had repented….that has meaning even if we stumble and commit that sin again.  Someone’s healing doesn’t disappeared because we sinned and even harmed again.  But if we frame it as we haven’t actually repented if we commit the sin again, that just may cause them to look at the good that they had been able to do themselves because of our efforts to repent and dismiss their own achievements or the comfort and happiness they experienced seeing us repent as meaningless as well.  And what a loss that might be for them.  

Then there is the fear that we will never know if we have truly repented or not till we are dead and can no longer be tempted…since any stumble proves we haven’t repented and how will we know we will never stumble again?  Additional stress and pressure that is unnecessary and is more likely to hurt rather than to help.

Grieving for the stumble is enough of a burden for the person who had repented and those affected by the sin they are repenting of.  Believing those efforts to not sin, to heal have value still even if additional sins are committed is important to prevent unnecessary harm and hopelessness, imo.

 I am not saying we should treat a stumble as a brand new sin ignoring the history of the sin in the person’s life and the lives of those around them, but I see it more effective to treat incidents, individual or a string of them as separate if there is significant time and effort that divides them from similar occurrences.  Don't ignore that it’s happen in the past, but look at the causes and triggers and be aware of them as the continual presence in your life, but they are different than the choices you made to sin or to put yourself in situations where you would be tempted that you have been repenting of, that you are working on to change.  This predispositions may be something you may not be responsible for (say a genetic predisposition to alcoholism you were not aware of when you took that first drink) and you may not be able to change them, so that they are present in your life may not mean you are required to repent for them.  As long as you are accepting being accountable for your choices and actively working on changing and moving in a positive direction towards God, I see a great benefit of labeling that as having repented.  Feeling one has been successful at repenting makes it more likely to try again when stumbles occur, not less.  Not being able to declare a successful repentance until one dies because of the belief that any lapse means you have never repented in the first place is much less helpful in preventing lapses, imo and experience for both myself and how I have seen others behave who have given up after a few stumbles because they see their previous efforts as worthless, unaccepted by God as repentance.

Are there people who go through the show of repentance, but haven’t really committed to it and so repeat the behaviour?  No doubt and they may try to even manipulate others demanding forgiveness because after all they have repented (or so they claim).  But I still believe we shouldn’t make equivalent those who have been trying to climb out of the pit, got part way and fell back or even those who got all the way out, but ran into trouble again and pitched back in with those who haven’t tried at all or who are just going through the motions of climbing out without putting effort and energy into the work and saying “then you haven’t repented the first time” to anyone who stumbles does just that, imo.

[Calm]

22 hours ago, Rain said:

think most people miss perfect repentance with restitution.  I mean you can try to make restitution, but in reality I think there is a lot of butterfly effect that happens and who can ever really even know how to restore all that let alone actually do it

This is where the Atonement comes in.

——

An atheist is capable of recognizing they have done wrong, not just a mistake but harmed themselves or someone else.  If they regret this and try to change, removing that inclination to harm, I see no reason why that can’t be labeled as repentance.

And if LDS doctrine is accurate, then God judges by the laws people are aware of in their lives and so would judge the repentance of atheists by how their heart was changed towards themselves and others they had harmed so they no longer acted in those harmful ways, imo.

Added:  the light of Christ is available to all.  I don’t see any reason why that wouldn’t pull good people towards repentance even if they didn’t believe in God or had faith in a non Abrahamic religion.

Edited April 1, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

I think repentance is like the word 'tithing'. It came from religious text and is inseparable from religion.

Maybe in our current culture, maybe not.  It would seem for sure not in at least some previous cultures as if you go into the etymology of tithing, it can apply to taxes as well as giving to churches.  The Latin source of repent means to regret, be sorry….there does not appear to be a religious component, but I am no expert in Latin, so could be.