Overthrowing the church of God

[InCognitus]

13 hours ago, telnetd said:

"Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted
and cast out from the land of their inheritance—I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to
come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions"
(reference).

The original post you responded to said:

On 3/29/2025 at 7:37 AM, telnetd said:

On 3/27/2025 at 1:52 PM, The Nehor said:

If persecution made the Church strong then leaving Missouri and Illinois to go somewhere safer was a bad move.

They were expelled for apostasy.

See?  You were wrong.  Since when is transgression the same as apostasy?  (It's not).

The revelation you quoted above is one group of saints in a specific place, for which the Lord also said, "Verily I say unto you, notwithstanding their sins, my bowels are filled with compassion towards them. I will not utterly cast them off; and in the day of wrath I will remember mercy" (verse 9).

But that is only one place and time.  The prophet Joseph Smith was later killed by a mob and the saints were driven out of the state of Illinois and other areas, and none of that was for any transgression. 

"Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell." (Doctrine and Covenants 121:23)

Edited April 1, 2025 by InCognitus

[telnetd]

On 4/1/2025 at 1:23 AM, InCognitus said:

The revelation you quoted above is one group of saints in a specific place, for which the Lord also said, "Verily I say unto you, notwithstanding their sins, my bowels are filled with compassion towards them. I will not utterly cast them off; and in the day of wrath I will remember mercy" (verse 9).

But that is only one place and time. 

"Behold, I, the Lord, have brought you together that the promise might be fulfilled, that 
the faithful among you should be preserved and rejoice together in the land of Missouri. 
I, the Lord, promise the faithful and cannot lie" (Missouri, August 13, 1831).
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:23 AM, InCognitus said:

The prophet Joseph Smith was later killed by a mob 

But not before he, "as a lamb going to the slaughter", engaged in a gun battle at the
Carthage Jail.  Another factor was when he ordered the destruction of the printing press
used by the Nauvoo Expositor. It was founded by several dissenters from the Church,
including some former members and critics who were disgruntled with Joseph's leadership
and practices.

See the Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith video by Bill McKeever.

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, telnetd said:

On 3/31/2025 at 11:23 PM, InCognitus said:

The prophet Joseph Smith was later killed by a mob 

But not before he, "as a lamb going to the slaughter", engaged in a gun battle at the
Carthage Jail. 

The "he died in a gun battle" twist just shows the lengths that people go to try to defame Joseph Smith. 

And for this to be called the "untold" story is another part of the twist.  The guns that were in possession of Joseph and Hyrum Smith at Carthage Jail are on display in the Church History Museum for everyone to see.  That's an essential part of the story and the way they were used was discussed in my high school seminary manual on church history. Bill McKeever even has photos from the church history museum on his website, so he fully knows this isn't an "untold" part of the story.

A mob of around 200 armed men stormed the Carthage Jail, and many members of the mob rushed up the stairs to the jailor's bedroom where the group was staying and fired several shots into the room hitting Hyrum in the face and killing him instantly, and it was only at that point that Joseph Smith fired three shots back in defense, and then he dropped the gun and went to the window where he was shot twice in the back and once in the front through the outside window, and he fell to his death.  Describing this slaughter as "dying in a gun battle" is a propaganda move to defame Joseph Smith, and is far from the truth. 

And Bill McKeever knows better.  I've talked to him about this before.  He does this on purpose because it's literally his job to make the church look as bad as possible.  And I know you know better as well. 

So you are jumping on that bandwagon too? 

Edited April 2, 2025 by InCognitus

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/20/2025 at 10:33 AM, california boy said:

And then there is the Catholic Church that managed to survive in the face of a lot of persecution and conflict.  How were they able to do that?

Are the martyrs held in esteem in LDS thought? I haven’t seen it on this forum, so I ask. I think in a discussion of “apostasy,” it’s essential to remember what early Christians suffered and what they did to transmit the Faith. 

What early LDS suffered pales in comparison to the early Catholics. 

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/20/2025 at 10:54 PM, InCognitus said:

Actually, that was my question to you.  Where in the world and what other period of time could God have set up his church to send missionaries to all the world, build temples, and be the headquarters of a world wide church?  Where could that have happened between 90 AD and 1830 and have it be preserved with same organization and teachings he intended up to the present time?  It’s an honest question. 

1) Rome was a great headquarters for a worldwide church. The Roman Empire, then Europe, then colonization. 
2) Why would Christ, the Son of God, set up a Church with the original Apostles that barely existed past His death? Your position seems to doubt the importance of the time, place, and people of the Incarnation.

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/20/2025 at 10:54 PM, InCognitus said:

So, the “true faith” became a matter for the state, and those who opposed it were executed.  That’s how they survived.

This seems to be good evidence/precedent for those restorationist branches who claim that the Brighamites are in apostasy because polygamy was abandoned due to pressure by the State. 

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/30/2025 at 5:36 PM, InCognitus said:

I agree completely. 

Also, even though Christ's church didn't continue in its original organization, authority, covenants, or all of its original teachings, the continuation of Christianity (in some form) was crucial to planting the seeds of Christ's teachings all around the world to facilitate the preaching of the restored gospel in the last days and for the preservation of the biblical texts.  Where would we be today without that?

Circular reasoning perhaps?

The restored gospel required the apostasy (the continuation of Christianity). The apostasy (the continuation of Christianity) requires the restoration. 

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/30/2025 at 7:13 PM, OGHoosier said:

Yep. 100%. 

John 12:24, 1 Corinthians 15:36. 

I find that the history of the world and of my own life makes a lot more sense if we view God as working through a cycle of death and resurrection, letting decaying syntheses die and bringing the good of it back to life, as opposed to preventing errors in the first instance. Proving contraries. That is what it means for the gates of hell to not prevail - they cannot keep God's work in. Believers in Christ of all denominations are fellow servants, and indeed believers of all religions oriented towards good principles are fellow servants in a broad sense.

But you’re inserting one of these death/ resurrection cycles between Christ and Joseph Smith. 
 

Will there be another one between Joseph Smith and the second coming? If not, then how is Joseph Smith superior to Christ and Sts. Peter and Paul?

And if you say the historical context, then why have the Incarnation happen when it did?
 

[OGHoosier]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Will there be another one between Joseph Smith and the second coming?

The Second Coming and everything associated with the millenial reign - Christ reigning in majesty, the earth passing away, the coming of a New Heaven and a New Earth - is a death and resurrection, no? The present paradigm passing away. 

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

If not, then how is Joseph Smith superior to Christ and Sts. Peter and Paul?

Why would you suggest that we think he is, just based on chronology? I mean, we LDS believe that John the Baptist, greatest of the prophets by the Lord's own affirmation, addressed Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery as "my fellow servants." A fellow servant is a fellow servant. Must Peter be greater than Moses or Abraham? I suppose I don't see why "later in chronology = superior." The ninth batter is not greater than the fourth, let me tell ya. It's about suitability to circumstances, not rankings of greatness.

Christ is superior to Joseph Smith, there's no doubt on that matter, but that's not owing to His chronological position. 

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

And if you say the historical context, then why have the Incarnation happen when it did?

I don't think anybody is capable of giving God's rationale for His timing there, and as I'm not Him, I won't presume. Why commit to the people of Israel when He did? Why not have the Incarnation in China? Why not put it in Mesoamerica where they were doing human sacrifices? If you want to say "to fulfill the covenant with Israel," well, God is God! Why not make covenants with people in those places? Would your answer to "why the Incarnation happened when it did" be similar to those of early Christians, including Paul, who thought the Parousia was imminent?

I think the answer to this question has more confounding factors than we have neurons and to be quite honest I don't think any Christian denomination can answer it in a way that escapes charges of convenience. I mean, the basic answer is "to bring about X state of affairs, which obtained, and which God wants" but there's very clearly ground to ask "but did it/did He, really?" as long as disagreements exist.

Edited April 3, 2025 by OGHoosier

[InCognitus]

21 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

1) Rome was a great headquarters for a worldwide church. The Roman Empire, then Europe, then colonization.

I agree, it was a great headquarters for a worldwide church - as long as you agreed with the doctrine that was established by that church and the state. But how would that have worked out for someone in that area who publicly held the beliefs of Latter-day Saints during that period of time?  (Honest question).

Maybe it was the right place but the wrong time.

21 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

2) Why would Christ, the Son of God, set up a Church with the original Apostles that barely existed past His death? Your position seems to doubt the importance of the time, place, and people of the Incarnation.

As for the timing, there are several reasons that I can think of, but the most important is the entire reason for the Incarnation: For the Savior Jesus Christ to accomplish the atonement for our sins, die on the cross, and the resurrection from the dead. Without that there is no hope, no salvation, no Church. In fact, everything else is insignificant in comparison.

21 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

On 3/20/2025 at 10:54 PM, InCognitus said:

So, the “true faith” became a matter for the state, and those who opposed it were executed.  That’s how they survived.

This seems to be good evidence/precedent for those restorationist branches who claim that the Brighamites are in apostasy because polygamy was abandoned due to pressure by the State. 

You're going to need to explain to me the comparison you are making between a religious faith that was implemented by the state for hundreds of years, and the schisms that occurred in the restored church that went off on their own way. How is that a valid comparison?

21 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

On 3/30/2025 at 5:36 PM, InCognitus said:

I agree completely. 

Also, even though Christ's church didn't continue in its original organization, authority, covenants, or all of its original teachings, the continuation of Christianity (in some form) was crucial to planting the seeds of Christ's teachings all around the world to facilitate the preaching of the restored gospel in the last days and for the preservation of the biblical texts.  Where would we be today without that?

Circular reasoning perhaps?

The restored gospel required the apostasy (the continuation of Christianity). The apostasy (the continuation of Christianity) requires the restoration. 

St. Thomas Aquinas: "But there is no reason why human nature should not have been raised to something greater after sin. For God allows evils to happen in order to bring a greater good therefrom; hence it is written (Romans 5:20): “Where sin abounded, grace did more abound.” Hence, too, in the blessing of the Paschal candle, we say: “O happy fault, that merited such and so great a Redeemer!” (Summa Theologica, III, 1, 3, ad 3; see also the Catechism, 412.)

Circular reasoning?  No.  As Aquinas aptly put it, "there is no reason why human nature should not have been raised to something greater" after the apostasy. "For God allows evils to happen in order to bring a greater good therefrom".

Edited April 4, 2025 by InCognitus

[telnetd]

On 4/2/2025 at 2:03 PM, InCognitus said:

And Bill McKeever knows better.  I've talked to him about this before.  He does this on purpose because it's literally his job to make the church look as bad as possible.  And I know you know better as well. 

So you are jumping on that bandwagon too?

The entire details are sketchy so I don't take a formal position. But I don't view 
Joseph as acting like a lamb in jail. 

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

The entire details are sketchy so I don't take a formal position. But I don't view 
Joseph as acting like a lamb in jail. 

You seem to have a misconception of what the phrase "like a lamb to the slaughter" means. 

Here's how Jeremiah used the phrase in connection with his description of the judgments and destruction that would come upon Babylon in retribution for what they did to Israel:

"Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will plead thy cause, and take vengeance for thee; and I will dry up her sea, and make her springs dry.  And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant.  They shall roar together like lions: they shall yell as lion's whelps.  In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.  I will bring them down like lambs to the slaughter, like rams with he goats.  (Jeremiah 51:36-40).

Now would you think that this means that Babylon did not put up a fight in connection with this destruction?  The context says not:

"A sound of a cry cometh from Babylon, and great destruction from the land of the Chaldeans:  Because the LORD hath spoiled Babylon, and destroyed out of her the great voice; when her waves do roar like great waters, a noise of their voice is uttered:  Because the spoiler is come upon her, even upon Babylon, and her mighty men are taken, every one of their bows is broken: for the LORD God of recompences shall surely requite."   (Jeremiah 51:54-56)

Here, a whole army of "mighty men", using bows and arrows to defend themselves, are said to have been brought "down like lambs to the slaughter".  Now will you dispute the LORD's use of this phrase in scripture, since these "lambs" apparently picked up bows and arrows to shoot at and wound (or kill) their attackers?  

This same phrase, "brought as a lamb to the slaughter" is used to describe the Savior by Isaiah in Isaiah 53:7:  "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."  Clearly there is a greater contextual description to this verse that explains the Savior's situation beyond the phrase "as a lamb to the slaughter" itself.

At least from a biblical standpoint, "like a lamb to the slaughter" does not mean that the "lamb" or "lambs" will not resist, or that there will not be any weapons used by the "lambs".  The phrase indicates a determined course of destiny, not a peaceable and willing surrender as you are wanting to imply.  Surely the same phrase can be legitimately applied to Joseph Smith and his one borrowed pistol.  And, his martyrdom can definitely be described as a "slaughter".

Edited April 4, 2025 by InCognitus

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

The entire details are sketchy so I don't take a formal position. But I don't view 
Joseph as acting like a lamb in jail. 

Lambs going to the slaughter are not generally passive about it so not sure the analogy holds.

[The Nehor]

So have we dethroned God yet?

[Tony uk]

I am going to step completely out of my comfort zone with this, especially my background as RC.

The Roman Catholic Church was built on the Apostles. And eventually became centered in Rome

After approximately 1,500 years, various people, such as Luther, Calvin with their interpretation/correction of the Christian faith.

Now this is where I completely step into the unknown. So I am less able to get to deep into the following statement. Part of Joseph Smith's calling was related to the priesthood having fallen away from the core purpose.

 

The thinking, on my part. Is in someway to make a connection between the three stages. I would be very interested to read the thoughts of the LDS members of this forum.

 

[telnetd]

On 4/4/2025 at 3:16 PM, InCognitus said:

And, his martyrdom can definitely be described as a "slaughter".

Was he really killed for his faith in Christ or were there other reasons?

[InCognitus]

On 4/7/2025 at 8:11 AM, telnetd said:

Was he really killed for his faith in Christ or were there other reasons?

There are always other reasons in addition to faith in Christ.

Just ask yourself the question, why was Jesus killed?  It's complicated.  

Same for Joseph Smith.  It's a complex issue, but it hinges upon his faith and teachings.  A good source to review the causes can be found here:  Why was Joseph Smith Murdered?

[Mark Beesley]

From my perspective, in Matthew 16:17-19 the Lord is not talking at all about a church as we understand it. He is talking about the Gospel and that body of revelation—His Word—which informs the World about the Gospel. Thus, when the Lord says that the gates of hell (ignorance) shall not prevail against it, He is simply saying, again, that though heaven and earth may pass away, His Word will not pass away, but all which He has spoken shall be fulfilled.

The suggestion that somehow the absence of a fully organized Church of Jesus Christ for 2 Thousand years casts a shadow on anything is simply an exercise in fallen man trying to pigeonhole God into their own limited capacity for understanding. When we finally come to the point in our own quest for truth where we decide to simply trust Him and become submissive as a child, we are more capable of receiving revelation from God, and we become less troubled by the unknown or unrevealed.

[OGHoosier]

On 4/4/2025 at 3:16 PM, InCognitus said:

At least from a biblical standpoint, "like a lamb to the slaughter" does not mean that the "lamb" or "lambs" will not resist, or that there will not be any weapons used by the "lambs".  The phrase indicates a determined course of destiny, not a peaceable and willing surrender as you are wanting to imply.

I would add that the source of Joseph Smith's identification with a lamb, D&C 135:4, does not imply that a "lamb going to the slaughter" is submissive:

Quote

When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me—he was murdered in cold blood.”—The same morning, after Hyrum had made ready to go—shall it be said to the slaughter? yes, for so it was—he read the following paragraph, near the close of the twelfth chapter of Ether, in the Book of Mormon, and turned down the leaf upon it:

I have emphasized the "but" because it separates the clause "lamb to the slaughter" from "calm as a summer's morning." At the very least, it makes clear that "lamb to the slaughter" does not imply "calm as a summer's morning." The suggestion that "lamb to the slaughter" is meant to communicate a sense of fate or destiny makes more sense here.

Edited April 10, 2025 by OGHoosier

[theplains]

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

First of all, Section 138:50 tells us that “the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage”, so both the righteous and the wicked were considered to be in spirit “prison”.  And in Luke 4:18, Jesus quoted from Isaiah 61:1 in application to himself, where it tells us that he is “to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound”.  That is for the righteous.

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings 
unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, 
and the opening of the prison to them that are bound" (Isaiah 61:1). 

Much of this applies to Christ's mortal ministry.  

As for the part about being bound in prison, all (the righteous and the wicked) are bound as 
section 138:50 says.

In the days of Christ, the concept of being "in prison" or "bound" is often used metaphorically 
in the scriptures to describe those who are spiritually or physically oppressed.

Spiritual Captivity: Jesus frequently referred to the Pharisees and others as being spiritually 
blind or in bondage to sin. He emphasized the importance of spiritual liberation through His 
teachings and Atonement. For example, in John 8:34, Jesus says, "Whosoever committeth sin is the 
servant of sin".

Physical and Social Oppression: Many in society at that time were marginalized or oppressed, such 
as the poor, the sick, and those possessed by evil spirits. Jesus's ministry often focused on 
these groups, offering healing and deliverance.

Jesus's mission included liberating those who were bound by various forms of captivity, whether 
spiritual, social, or physical.
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

Second, Section 138:20 says that Jesus did not go to the wicked or the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and warnings of the ancient prophets.  On the other hand, Section 76 tells us that Jesus went to those who “died without law” and to the “honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (verses 72 and 75), and Section 76 defines the wicked and rebellious (the “liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie”, verse 103) as those of the Telestial kingdom and Jesus did not preach to them. So there is nothing incompatible between these teachings.

Where were they when Jesus went to them – in paradise or in darkness?
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

You are not reading the context.  The purpose of the revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 138 was to primarily answer the following question:  How was it possible for the Son of God to preach to all the spirits in the spirit world and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time?

Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14 introduces the answer to the question by describing those who had gathered to wait for Jesus to come to the spirit world, they were those who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality, “they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand”.  

Verses 18-19 say, “While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;  And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.”

Clearly these verses above describe those who would inherit the celestial kingdom.  They are the focus of this revelation because they are those whom Jesus called to preach the gospel to the wicked.

Are those who would inherit the terrestrial kingdom in paradise with the spirits of the just or 
in darkness when they died?

What accounts for George Q. Cannon (former First Presidency member) teaching in "Gospel Truth" 
that Jesus visited and preached to the wicked spirits?
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

The revelation also describes the group of people that Jesus did not go to teach.  This is explained in verses 20-22 where it says, “unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.”

We have devout Muslims who are ungodly and unrepentant when they knowingly reject Christ's 
atonement.  We have devout Hindus who know about Christ's atonement and reject it; defiling 
themselves in their worship of idols. They heard the truth but they allowed themselves to follow 
the false doctrines of their leaders.

Are these groups of people the honourable men spoken of in Doctrine and Covenants 76:75?
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

But what about those of the terrestrial kingdom?  They are not included among those that Jesus did not teach as described in verses 20-22 and 29 of section 138. The individuals of the terrestrial world would be those who died without law, those who didn’t receive a testimony of Jesus in the flesh (they may not have been taught the gospel while in mortality) but afterward would receive it, the honorable men of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men (see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-77).

The terrestrials, classified as living honorably in mortality (D&C 76:75), are not in paradise 
with the spirits of the just (D&C 138:12-19).  They are in darkness (D&C 138:20-22; 36-37).

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled 
themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; 21 Neither did the rebellious who 
rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look 
upon his face. 22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of 
spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him 
in the flesh; 37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he 
could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the 
ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

But when I flip back to Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-79, speaking of the terrestrial world, it 
shows Christ visited them and preached the gospel unto them. 

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the 
terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the 
fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. 72 Behold, 
these are they who died without law; 73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, 
whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to 
men in the flesh.

Verse 73 is not speaking about the celestials.

This being "judged according to men in the flesh" is also a reference to those who rejected Noah's 
message (D&C 138:7-10). These are the spirits of the unjust.

7 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us 
to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 8 "By which also he went 
and preached unto the spirits in prison; 9 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the 
longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, 
that is, eight souls were saved by water". (1 Peter 3:18–20.) 10 "For for this cause was the 
gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the 
flesh, but live according to God in the spirit".
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

Jesus went first to the righteous but then taught the repentant, "that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6).

Where is this group before they repent? With the righteous in paradise or the wicked in darkness?
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

The context of Romans 2:12 is important:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)  16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”  (Romans 2:12–16)

Those verses explain that everyone is judged according to the knowledge they are given while in mortality.  Those who have no law are not as accountable as those who know God’s commandments.  This is also explained in a parable by Jesus in Luke 12:43-48:

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.  (Luke 12:43–48)

This is speaking about living people and how they spend their mortal life. It's not about a period 
of making choices after death and accepting saving ordinances.

Muslims who know about and reject Christ's atonement have their portion with the unbelievers.
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

This is a strange objection.  Everyone should be thanking Jesus for their redemption from the chains of hell, don’t you think?  For without Jesus and his atonement, where would we all be?

Doctrine and Covenants 138:23 describes this deliverance: “And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell”.   Hell in this context is the hades “hell”, which is death or the grave.  As the same section explains later, “For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 138:50)

I see what you're saying but the righteous are mentioned as being in the chains of hell.  The 
bondage part is applicable to all the dead.

Alms 12:11 defines what this [chains of hell] means. "And they that will harden their hearts, to 
them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; 
and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this 
is what is meant by the chains of hell".
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

And this is what Jesus also proclaimed of himself:  “Fear not; I am the first and the last:  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”  (Revelation 1:17–18)

The first and the last what?
 

On 4/1/2025 at 1:08 AM, InCognitus said:

Do you believe everyone who lived at the time of Noah heard his warning and rejected his message?  I don’t see how that is possible, do you?

The disobedient at the time of Noah could include a vast number of people who simply didn’t know any better. And as explained above, there isn’t anything in section 138 that denies that Jesus didn’t teach the repentant spirits in prison.

The exact time it took Noah to build the ark isn't specified directly in the Bible. However, some 
interpretations suggest it could have taken several decades.

One common understanding is based on Genesis 6:3, where God declares, "My spirit shall not always 
strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years". 
Some believe this indicates a period of 120 years of warning and preparation, which might include 
the time Noah spent building the ark.

So it's possible if word spread of a man and his family building an ark to save them from 
impending doom. Unfortunately, none but eight were saved.

I see 1 Peter 3:18-20 (whom Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison) as representing 
the wicked who had rejected Noah's message.  They don't possess the qualities of D&C 138:14-19, 
even though verse 20 says he did not go to preach to the wicked spirits.

That all goes back to what I mentioned earlier.  Seeing that you said all those in the paradise 
(the spirits of the just) would inherit a celestial glory, those who would later inherit a 
terrestrial glory after they died are not in paradise, but with the wicked (the spirits of the 
unjust).

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings 
unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, 
and the opening of the prison to them that are bound" (Isaiah 61:1). 

Much of this applies to Christ's mortal ministry.  

As for the part about being bound in prison, all (the righteous and the wicked) are bound as 
section 138:50 says.

In the days of Christ, the concept of being "in prison" or "bound" is often used metaphorically 
in the scriptures to describe those who are spiritually or physically oppressed.

Spiritual Captivity: Jesus frequently referred to the Pharisees and others as being spiritually 
blind or in bondage to sin. He emphasized the importance of spiritual liberation through His 
teachings and Atonement. For example, in John 8:34, Jesus says, "Whosoever committeth sin is the 
servant of sin".

Physical and Social Oppression: Many in society at that time were marginalized or oppressed, such 
as the poor, the sick, and those possessed by evil spirits. Jesus's ministry often focused on 
these groups, offering healing and deliverance.

Jesus's mission included liberating those who were bound by various forms of captivity, whether 
spiritual, social, or physical.

I agree completely, that doesn’t change anything I said. 

5 hours ago, theplains said:

On 3/31/2025 at 11:08 PM, InCognitus said:

Second, Section 138:20 says that Jesus did not go to the wicked or the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and warnings of the ancient prophets.  On the other hand, Section 76 tells us that Jesus went to those who “died without law” and to the “honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (verses 72 and 75), and Section 76 defines the wicked and rebellious (the “liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie”, verse 103) as those of the Telestial kingdom and Jesus did not preach to them. So there is nothing incompatible between these teachings.

Where were they when Jesus went to them – in paradise or in darkness?

Those who inherit the terrestrial realm are neither celestial nor telestial, so why must it be one or the other?  The judgement isn’t binary. 

The revelation in section 138 focuses only on the extremes:  those of the celestial realm who are called to preach the gospel to others, and those of the telestial realm (those in darkness) to whom Jesus did not go to teach personally.  

But even so, paradise would likely include those of the terrestrial realm.  Joseph Smith taught that during the Millennium, “the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory” (Articles of Faith 1:10), and those of the terrestrial realm will be on the earth during the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.  So why wouldn’t they be part of “paradise” in the spirit world?

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Are those who would inherit the terrestrial kingdom in paradise with the spirits of the just or 
in darkness when they died?

You are asking the same question over again.  Why?  I answered that above.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

What accounts for George Q. Cannon (former First Presidency member) teaching in "Gospel Truth" 
that Jesus visited and preached to the wicked spirits?

Further revelation on a matter can change one’s perspective, and it’s not fair to judge George Q. Cannon and hold him responsible for a revelation that was received by someone else seventeen years after his death.  It’s like the apostle Paul at first teaching that the second coming of Christ would occur during his lifetime, but later changing that by saying that the second coming would not come “soon” because he learned that there must be an apostasy first.

But George Q. Cannon did quite well in what he taught, because he explained how the gospel would be taught to the “spirits of the damned” (those who are in darkness) in the same way as the October 1918 revelation to Joseph F. Smith that’s found in Doctrine and Covenants section 138.

This is how George Q. Cannon taught it:

“The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors of  the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness because of their sins, who may be in the condition of the antediluvians, whom the Lord consigned to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and those associated with him.”

And this lines up precisely with what section 138 says about how those people will be taught.  It says:

“[F]rom among the righteous, he [Jesus] organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 138:30–32)

5 hours ago, theplains said:

We have devout Muslims who are ungodly and unrepentant when they knowingly reject Christ's 
atonement.  We have devout Hindus who know about Christ's atonement and reject it; defiling 
themselves in their worship of idols. They heard the truth but they allowed themselves to follow 
the false doctrines of their leaders.

Are these groups of people the honourable men spoken of in Doctrine and Covenants 76:75?

Sorry, I’m not their judge, and I certainly won’t pass judgement on groups of people with a broad brush.  That matter is in God’s hands.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

The terrestrials, classified as living honorably in mortality (D&C 76:75), are not in paradise 
with the spirits of the just (D&C 138:12-19).  They are in darkness (D&C 138:20-22; 36-37).

See my response above.  The people of the terrestrial realm are likely in paradise just as they will be during the Millennium.  But Doctrine and Covenants section 138 doesn’t mention them specifically since that revelation focuses upon the question about how Jesus organized the righteous to preach to those in darkness.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

On 3/31/2025 at 11:08 PM, InCognitus said:

Jesus went first to the righteous but then taught the repentant, "that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6).

Where is this group before they repent? With the righteous in paradise or the wicked in darkness?

The judgement isn’t binary.  That’s why there’s a terrestrial kingdom.  And you are asking the same question over again.  I already answered your view of a binary judgement above.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

On 3/31/2025 at 11:08 PM, InCognitus said:

The context of Romans 2:12 is important:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)  16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”  (Romans 2:12–16)

Those verses explain that everyone is judged according to the knowledge they are given while in mortality.  Those who have no law are not as accountable as those who know God’s commandments.  This is also explained in a parable by Jesus in Luke 12:43-48:

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.  (Luke 12:43–48)

This is speaking about living people and how they spend their mortal life. It's not about a period 
of making choices after death and accepting saving ordinances.

Did you not read what I said?  I said, “Those verses explain that everyone is judged according to the knowledge they are given while in mortality. “

This is about how people are judged according to the truths they received while in the flesh and how they responded to those truths.

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”  (1 Peter 4:6)

Exactly that.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

That all goes back to what I mentioned earlier.  Seeing that you said all those in the paradise 
(the spirits of the just) would inherit a celestial glory, those who would later inherit a 
terrestrial glory after they died are not in paradise, but with the wicked (the spirits of the 
unjust).

You are the one who said that, not me.  Don’t put words in my mouth.  See my responses above.

[theplains]

On 4/23/2025 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

Those who inherit the terrestrial realm are neither celestial nor telestial, so why must it be one or the other?  The judgement isn’t binary. 

The revelation in section 138 focuses only on the extremes:  those of the celestial realm who are called to preach the gospel to others, and those of the telestial realm (those in darkness) to whom Jesus did not go to teach personally.  

But even so, paradise would likely include those of the terrestrial realm.  Joseph Smith taught that during the Millennium, “the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory” (Articles of Faith 1:10), and those of the terrestrial realm will be on the earth during the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.  So why wouldn’t they be part of “paradise” in the spirit world?

The terrestrials are not in paradise according to the descriptions given in Doctrine and Covenants 
138.

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, 
who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and 
had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through 
the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

Receiving the fulness of joy is reserved for those who are formed into Gods.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews 
and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that 
they might receive a fulness of joy.

They had been faithful. They were not honorable men who were blinded by the craftiness of men (as 
shown in 76:75).

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from 
the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been 
faithful;

Jesus is said to have preached to those in paradise.

19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the 
redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

The next verse says he didn't go to the wicked.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled 
themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

But when we go to Doctrine and Covenants 138:73-76, it's clear that Jesus visited the wicked 
"honorable" people [the terrestrials] and preached to them.  Paradise was only for those who died 
with a testimony of Christ before they had died. Paradise is for the vast assembly of the righteous 
(verse 38).

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached 
the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

The terrestrials, unlike those in paradise, do not receive of God's fulness. They are not in the 
resurrection of the just. This is reserved for those who are formed into Gods (Doctrine and 
Covenants 76:54-65).
 

On 4/23/2025 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

Further revelation on a matter can change one’s perspective, and it’s not fair to judge George Q. Cannon and hold him responsible for a revelation that was received by someone else seventeen years after his death.  It’s like the apostle Paul at first teaching that the second coming of Christ would occur during his lifetime, but later changing that by saying that the second coming would not come “soon” because he learned that there must be an apostasy first.

The Apostle Paul frequently wrote about the Second Coming of Jesus, but he didn't explicitly 
state that Jesus would return during his own lifetime. Some interpretations of Paul's writings, 
like 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, suggest to some that he anticipated this event soon.

Paul's language in verse 15, "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," suggests 
to some that he expected Jesus' return to happen soon, possibly within his lifetime. However, 
interpretations vary, and this reflects the hope and anticipation of early Christians rather than 
a definitive prophecy about the timing of the Second Coming.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the 
coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, 
and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the 
Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15-17).

These verses apply to those that will actually live to see the Second Coming.

The apostasy and that man of sin who fulfills the following has not occurred in the past.

2 Thess 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, 
nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 

2 Thess 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come 
a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

2 Thess 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; 
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

And he will deceive people with power and signs and wonders.

2 Thess 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and 
lying wonders, 

2 Thess 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they 
received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 

2 Thess 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe 
a lie: 

2 Thess 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in 
unrighteousness. 

These events have not occurred yet.

We find something similar in the 1832 revelation that Joseph Smith is said to have received.

"Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering 
of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared 
in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be 
built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the 
Lord, which shall fill the house" (Doctrine and Covenants 84:4-5).

This is believed to be a future fulfillment.

From the seminary manual.

Building of the New Jerusalem

Near the time of the coming of Jesus Christ, the faithful Saints will build a righteous city, a 
city of God, called the New Jerusalem. Jesus Christ Himself will rule there.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-43-signs-of-the-second-coming?lang=eng
 

On 4/23/2025 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

But George Q. Cannon did quite well in what he taught, because he explained how the gospel would be taught to the “spirits of the damned” (those who are in darkness) in the same way as the October 1918 revelation to Joseph F. Smith that’s found in Doctrine and Covenants section 138.

This is how George Q. Cannon taught it:

“The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors of  the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness because of their sins, who may be in the condition of the antediluvians, whom the Lord consigned to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and those associated with him.”

And this lines up precisely with what section 138 says about how those people will be taught.  It says:

“[F]rom among the righteous, he [Jesus] organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 138:30–32)

I'll add the second paragraph for context.

First paragraph

The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine 
preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors 
of the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come, 
in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness 
because of their sins—who may be in the condition of the antediluvian, whom the Lord consigned 
to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and 
those associated with him.

Second paragraph

The Lord had promised His servants, however, that these people [the spirits of the damned; the 
wicked in Noah's day] should be visited after they had atoned to some extent for their violation 
of His laws; and this was the glorious mission of our Lord and Savior Jesus while His body lay 
in the sepulchre. He went into the spirit world and visited these spirits [the spirits of the 
damned; the wicked who rejected Noah's message] in prison, unlocked the doors of their prisons 
and started again the work of preaching salvation to them to see whether, after having endured 
the wrath of God from the time when they were overwhelmed with the flood [the wicked in Noah's 
day] until then, they would receive the Gospel of salvation and repent of their sins. That is 
the labor that we have upon us as a people, both here and hereafter. (Millennial Star. 1899-02-23: 
Volume 61, Issue 8, pages 115-116)

These people form the context of 1 Peter 3:18-20.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us 
to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and 
preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering 
of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight 
souls were saved by water". 

The Religion 211-212 seminary manual has a brief explanation of this.

1 Peter 3:18–20; 4:6. Jesus Christ Preached to the Spirits in Prison

While the Gospels do not mention details about Jesus Christ's experiences between the time of 
His Crucifixion and His Resurrection, Peter provided the insight that Jesus "went and preached 
unto the spirits in prison; some of whom were disobedient in the days of Noah, while the long-
suffering of God waited" (Joseph Smith Translation, 1 Peter 3:19–20 [in 1 Peter 3:19–20, footnote 
20a]).

The wicked in Noah's day were subsequently excluded from Christ visiting and preaching to them 
by a supposed revelation.  "Some of them [some of the wicked]" became "none of them [none of the 
wicked]".

President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918) was pondering the meaning of 1 Peter 3:18–20; 4:6 when he 
received a vision, now recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 138. In this vision he learned that 
following the Savior's death, the Lord ministered in the spirit world, preparing the way for the 
gospel to be preached to the spirits of the wicked.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/1-peter-and-2-peter/chapter-51-1-peter-and-2-peter?lang=eng

That is why I don't believe the vision given to Joseph F. Smith.  It lacks understanding of what 
Peter said.

It's worth noting that the Book of Mormon doesn't address this [what Jesus did between his death 
and resurrection] either. It must appeal to the Bible.
 

On 4/23/2025 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

Did you not read what I said?  I said, “Those verses explain that everyone is judged according to the knowledge they are given while in mortality. “

This is about how people are judged according to the truths they received while in the flesh and how they responded to those truths.

There are devout Buddhists, Sikhs, and Hindus who have knowingly rejected the Atonement of Christ, 
and in the case of Hindus offered plant and animal sacrifices to their pagan gods.

These groups (even though viewed as honorable in the sense that they were morally good in the eyes 
of man – did not kill, did not steal, helped the needy, etc) are wicked in the sight of God. They 
believed and followed the false doctrines of their leaders instead.

They could not be in paradise with the righteous saints.

Alma 40:11-14 gives a good description of their state between death and resurrection.

"Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been 
made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from 
this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to 
that God who gave them life.  And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are 
righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a 
state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And 
then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they 
have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than 
good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—
and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing 
of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now 
this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful 
looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, 
as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection".

These wicked are the terrestrials mentioned in Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-80 (" ... whom the 
Son visited and preached the gospel unto them ...", verse 73).  They did not have a testimony of 
Jesus in the flesh (verse 74).  Those in paradise had a testimony of Jesus in the flesh (138:12).
 

On 4/23/2025 at 12:47 AM, InCognitus said:

You are the one who said that, not me.  Don’t put words in my mouth.  See my responses above.

I might have misunderstood what you said previously.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:50 discusses the "resurrection of the just," which is associated with 
those who receive celestial glory. They are classified as gods (priests and kingdoms); members 
of the Church of the Firstborn (76:51-70).

This resurrection is for those who have embraced the gospel, been perfected through Jesus Christ, 
and have kept the commandments. They received the testimony of Jesus, were baptized, and were 
faithful to the covenants made with God.

The terrestrials are not in the resurrection of the just. They are harmed by the second death 
(Revelation 20:6). They do not become gods, priests, and kings.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:38, 49-52 also indicates the vast assembly of the righteous coming 
forth after Christ's resurrection "to enter into his Father's kingdom, there to be crowned with 
immortality and eternal life".  

I can't find any scripture or example that supports the idea of either a wicked or an honorable 
person (perhaps someone like a devout and moral Hindu who rejects Christ's atonement and worships 
idols?) being sent the darkness and misery of spirit prison, only to later become a God or 
entering one of the other divisions of the Celestial Kingdom.

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

That is why I don't believe the vision given to Joseph F. Smith.  It lacks understanding of what 
Peter said.

1. Joseph F. Smith Elaborates, He Does Not Misunderstand

I think you give him too little credit. Joseph F. Smith is aware of what Peter said, and you can see that for yourself in D&C 138:28-29 - Joseph F. Smith very clearly declares that this revelation expands on Peter here: 

Quote

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

It's pretty hard to argue that Joseph F. Smith didn't understand "Jesus went to preach to the souls in prison" when he says it, right there, practically verbatim. These are not difficult words. Joseph F. Smith is not representing Peter as having said something which he did not - instead, he's offering a higher-resolution view of something that Peter described in low-res. Does "preach to" mean "deliver a sermon" or can it also encompass "commission messengers"? Was Paul preaching when he sent his epistles? If Jesus said "tell them this word for word", would that be preaching to them, or is only direct, verbal delivery allowed? Joseph F. Smith doesn't seem to think so. So very much depends on how you define preaching, which highlights the weakness of adjudicating doctrines based on a presumed unanimity of definitions across thousands of years of scripture. I would argue that if this interpretation bothers you, you will also have a hard time with the appropriation of the Old Testament by the Gospel authors. Do you?

Even if I were to grant your basic objection for the sake of charity, it would then seem that Peter knew that Christ went to the world of spirits to preach, but that doesn't mean he knew all the details about it. Likewise, Joseph Smith Jr. seems to have taken Peter at his word and not inquired further. Prophets miss details (1 Nephi 15:27; 3 Nephi 23:7-13) and even the most momentous revelation can be ambiguous and up to interpretation (Acts 10-11). That's what ongoing revelation is for.

2. Incorrect Focus on "Paradise" as the Interpretive Key

From this point on is a separate argument, focusing on your methodology and application of logic. I must state, first and foremost, that you make it very hard to follow your argument because you volley-fire prooftexts and then weave references between them, so it is difficult to keep your definitions, assertions, and references straight.This makes it very difficult to clearly perceive both your argument and your interpretive toolset. To elucidate them, I will ask the following questions:

Why are you so focused on the concept of "paradise" as an interpretive key to D&C 138 when that word does not appear even once in the text of the revelation? 

What do you make of the assertion that you yourself quoted in Alma 40:12, in which "paradise" is defined as a state of being, as opposed to a place?

The scripture says that Jesus did not go among "the wicked," "the ungodly and unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh," and "the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets." The nouns here are wicked, ungodly, unrepentant, and rebellious. What does D&C 138 not say? It says nothing about avoiding "prison", and it says nothing about going only to "paradise." This is a big problem for your argument, because your argument hinges entirely on the litigation of who is in paradise and who isn't, and the identification of the host of the just with paradise. 

3. Incorrect Inference of Exclusivity from Mere Positive Statements

I've noticed you have a tendency to interpret positive statements as exclusive statements. As an example, let's look at your usage of Revelation 20:6:

Quote

The terrestrials are not in the resurrection of the just. They are harmed by the second death 
(Revelation 20:6). They do not become gods, priests, and kings.

What does Revelation 20:6 say?

Quote

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Does it assert that terrestrials are harmed by the second death? No. Does it say that only those who have part in the first resurrection escape the second death? No. On the contrary, Revelation 20:15 assigns the second death to those whose names are not written in the book of life. The book of life is not equated exclusively with the first resurrection, and since the judgment is placed after the Millennium, the roster of the book of life would seem to include those not resurrected in the first resurrection. What we have here is a positive statement, "A entails B"...but that does not mean "Not A entails Not B!" B could still happen independent of A!

You interpreted a positive statement (those of the first resurrection escape the second death) as an exclusive statement (only those of the first resurrection escape the second death.)  This is a basic logical error. (A-->B) does not entail (~A-->~B). Meanwhile, I note that, despite your extensive citation of D&C 76 in the above post, you don't mention D&C 76:31-37, which holds that the second death only has power over sons of perdition. 

This same error (confusing positive statements for exclusive statements) is evident in your identification of D&C 138's "innumerable company of the spirits of the just" with "paradise." You do this a couple of times in the above post. I will go through these instances, placing your quote in the same quote box as the scripture it references. Where do you draw the authority for these assertions, since your citations don't provide it?

Quote

"Paradise was only for those who died with a testimony of Christ before they had died. Paradise is for the vast assembly of the righteous (verse 38)." - theplains

38 Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all.

It doesn't say that paradise is only for that "vast congregation of the righteous" described therein.

Quote

"They did not have a testimony of Jesus in the flesh (verse 74).  Those in paradise had a testimony of Jesus in the flesh (138:12)." - theplains

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

Does it say that only those who had a testimony of Jesus in the flesh are in paradise? Only if you identify the innumerable company of the spirits of the just exclusively with paradise, so that nobody else could be in that state. Your citation doesn't prove that! That is the very point in question! This argument is viciously circular!

Your whole argument is dependent on the assertion that D&C 138 describes paradise in totality, as opposed to a subset of people within it, those who gathered to welcome the Lord at the moment of His death. But you fail to substantiate that with anything but circular references. And you rely heavily on the equation of "terrestrial" = "wicked", when that is not stated in D&C 76 nor established by Alma 40. 

Now, this third argument that I have presented is pretty much vitiated by D&C 76:73, to be sure. That only matters, though, if (a) paradise is actually the interpretive key you make it out to be, which I have disputed, and (b) prison is a place, not a state of being like Alma describes. Even if both of those go your way, I will note that Joseph Smith Jr. himself updated D&C 76:72 with D&C 137:7-10 four years later. It appears that the descriptions of the "membership requirements" of the kingdoms of glory were "analytical overlay" contributed by Joseph Smith according to his understanding at the time of receiving the Vision in 1832. If he could update it in 1836 then so could Joseph F. Smith, who inherited his mantle. 

[InCognitus]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

The terrestrials are not in paradise according to the descriptions given in Doctrine and Covenants 
138.

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, 
who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and 
had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through 
the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

The word “paradise” is not found anywhere in section 138.  So you are making up your own definition of paradise which has already been pointed out to you is in error.

It doesn’t say what you claim.

What these verses describe are the people that greeted Jesus when he arrived.  But nowhere in section 138 does it exclude the people of the terrestrial realm from Jesus’ visit, and section 76 specifically says Jesus taught the people of the terrestrial realm as well.

7 hours ago, theplains said:

Receiving the fulness of joy is reserved for those who are formed into Gods.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews 
and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that 
they might receive a fulness of joy.

Again, you are completely misrepresenting the verse.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33–34 teaches:

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;  And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.”

This is referring to the resurrection.  When spirit and body inseparably connected, the individual will “receive a fulness of joy”.  Couple that with Doctrine and Covenants 138:14-17 which is also clearly talking about the resurrection:

“All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.  I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.  They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.  Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 138:14-17)

Furthermore, everyone will be resurrected from the dead (the wicked and the righteous – John 5:29).  And those who are resurrected to eternal life will receive a greater “fulness of joy” having the kind of life that God has. 

Consequently, this verse does nothing to support your idea that the people of the terrestrial realm were not visited by Jesus in the spirit world.

7 hours ago, theplains said:

They had been faithful. They were not honorable men who were blinded by the craftiness of men (as 
shown in 76:75).

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from 
the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been 
faithful;

As I have already said several times, the main point of the revelation in section 138 is to answer the question stated in verse 28: “how it was possible for [Jesus] to preach to those spirits [in prison] and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time”?

The answer to that question is given in the revelation, so its purpose is to explain that Jesus organized the righteous individuals to preach the gospel to those in “darkness” (those of the telestial realm), and there is no reason to describe anything that happened to the people of the terrestrial realm.  Section 76 answer that question and explains that Jesus did teach those in the terrestrial realm.

7 hours ago, theplains said:

Jesus is said to have preached to those in paradise.

Nowhere in section 138 is the word “paradise” mentioned.  Your entire argument rests on a faulty premise and circular reasoning.  You are also limiting God's judgment to your binary view of heaven and hell, which clearly is not the case.  

The presence of the Son is included among the organization structure available to those in the terrestrial kingdom: 

“These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.” (D&C 76:77)

They would have received the presence of the Son while also in the spirit world.

Those of the terrestrial world will be among those who are on the earth during the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.  

There is therefore absolutely no reason to assume that section 138 excludes from the teaching of Jesus to those in the spirit world.

7 hours ago, theplains said:

On 4/22/2025 at 10:47 PM, InCognitus said:

But George Q. Cannon did quite well in what he taught, because he explained how the gospel would be taught to the “spirits of the damned” (those who are in darkness) in the same way as the October 1918 revelation to Joseph F. Smith that’s found in Doctrine and Covenants section 138.

This is how George Q. Cannon taught it:

“The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors of  the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness because of their sins, who may be in the condition of the antediluvians, whom the Lord consigned to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and those associated with him.”

And this lines up precisely with what section 138 says about how those people will be taught.  It says:

“[F]rom among the righteous, he [Jesus] organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 138:30–32)

I'll add the second paragraph for context.

You’re just saying the same thing you said before.  This has already been addressed in my prior post.  Nothing new here.

[theplains]

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

1. Joseph F. Smith Elaborates, He Does Not Misunderstand

I think you give him too little credit. Joseph F. Smith is aware of what Peter said, and you can see that for yourself in D&C 138:28-29 - Joseph F. Smith very clearly declares that this revelation expands on Peter here: 

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, 
when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary 
labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and 
the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

It's pretty hard to argue that Joseph F. Smith didn't understand "Jesus went to preach to the souls in prison" when he says it, right there, practically verbatim. These are not difficult words. Joseph F. Smith is not representing Peter as having said something which he did not - instead, he's offering a higher-resolution view of something that Peter described in low-res. Does "preach to" mean "deliver a sermon" or can it also encompass "commission messengers"?

1 Peter 3 does not say that Christ commissioned righteous spirits in paradise to eventually go 
into spirit prison to preach to the wicked there. It says Christ went and preached himself.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to 
God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and 
preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering 
of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight 
souls were saved by water". 

People alter the words and meaning if they believe that "Jesus went and preached" means "Jesus 
didn't personally go and preach". 

Here's a teaching of James Talmage from "Jesus the Christ" which reflects this personal visit of 
Christ to the wicked.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-36?lang=eng

While divested of His body Christ ministered among the departed, both in paradise and in the 
prison realm where dwelt in a state of durance the spirits of the disobedient. To this effect 
testified Peter nearly three decades after the great event: "For Christ also hath once suffered 
for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, 
but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which 
sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while 
the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."f

The disobedient who had lived on earth in the Noachian period are especially mentioned as 
beneficiaries of the Lord's ministry in the spirit world. They had been guilty of gross offenses, 
and had wantonly rejected the teachings and admonitions of Noah, the earthly minister of Jehovah. 
For their flagrant sin they had been destroyed in the flesh, and their spirits had endured in a 
condition of imprisonment, without hope, from the time of their death to the advent of Christ, 
who came as a Spirit amongst them.

Here's a teaching from George Q. Cannon which indicates the same.

The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine 
preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors of 
the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come, in 
this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness because 
of their sins—who may be in the condition of the antediluvian, whom the Lord consigned to prison 
after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and those associated 
with him.

The Lord had promised His servants, however, that these people should be visited after they had 
atoned to some extent for their violation of His laws; and this was the glorious mission of our 
Lord and Savior Jesus while His body lay in the sepulchre. He went into the spirit world and 
visited these spirits in prison, unlocked the doors of their prisons and started again the work 
of preaching salvation to them to see whether, after having endured the wrath of God from the time 
when they were overwhelmed with the flood until then, they would receive the Gospel of salvation 
and repent of their sins. That is the labor that we have upon us as a people, both here and 
hereafter. (Millennial Star. 1899-02-23: Volume 61, Issue 8, pages 115-116)

https://ia600403.us.archive.org/13/items/per_utah-and-the-mormons_the-latter-day-saints-millennial-star_1899-02-23_61_8/per_utah-and-the-mormons_the-latter-day-saints-millennial-star_1899-02-23_61_8.pdf

D&C 138:14 says Jesus visited those in peace (who died with a testimony of him in mortality) 
while D&C 76:74-75 says Jesus also visited those who did not have a testimony of him in 
mortality.

That is confirmed in a 2019 General Conference talk.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng

"The wicked also suffer an additional bondage. Because of unrepented sins, they are in what the 
Apostle Peter referred to as spirit "prison" (1 Peter 3:19; see also Doctrine and Covenants 138:42).  
These spirits are described as "bound" or as "captives" (Doctrine and Covenants 138:31, 42) or 
as "cast out into outer darkness" with "weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth" as they 
await resurrection and judgment (Alma 40:13–14)".

It is also confirmed in this teaching by Joseph F. Smith.

https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-f-smith-reflections-man-his-times/development-understanding-postmortal-spirit-world

"The separation of the just and the unjust described in Alma 40 of the Book of Mormon suggests 
that there is a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous in the spirit world. In 
addition to the writings of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith further taught, "Jesus Christ became 
a ministering spirit (while His body was lying in the sepulchre) to the spirits in prison, to 
fulfill an important part of His mission." [2] Joseph also taught, "Peter, also, in speaking 
concerning our Savior, says that, ‘He went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which 
sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah,' 
(1 Peter 3:19, 20). Here then we have an account of our Savior preaching to the spirits in 
prison, to spirits that had been imprisoned from the days of Noah".

These were the wicked people who had rejected the message in the days of Noah.

Here are several teachings of the LDS Church regarding paradise, the spirit world, and spirit 
prison.  In short, the righteous are in paradise, the wicked are in spirit prison, and Christ 
went and preached to those in prison.

Paradise: That part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from 
this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace.

The spirits of the righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, 
Alma 40:11–12.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/paradise?lang=eng

Paradise is that part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from 
this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/paradise?lang=eng

The postmortal spirit world is a place where the spirits of those who have died live before the 
Resurrection. The spirit world consists of paradise, where the righteous dwell, and spirit prison, 
where those who were wicked in mortality dwell.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng

"The spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called 
paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and 
from all care, and sorrow.

"Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful 
looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, 
as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection" (Alma 40:12–14).

The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will 
of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), 
but the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The 
spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

There are two major states or divisions among the spirits in the spirit world: paradise and spirit prison.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2016/06/what-do-we-know-about-life-after-death?lang=eng

After death, our spirit bodies go to the spirit world. There, the spirits of the righteous "are 
received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, 
where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow" (Alma 40:12). "Those 
who … died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected 
the prophets," are spirits in prison (Doctrine and Covenants 138:32; see also 1 Peter 3:18–20).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world-study-guide?lang=eng

Jesus was the first man that ever went to preach to the spirits in prison, holding the keys of the 
Gospel of salvation to them. Those keys were delivered to him in the day and hour that he went into 
the spirit world, and with them he opened the door of salvation to the spirits in prison (DBY, 378).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-38?lang=eng

Out of all the spirits in the spirit world, only those in paradise are referred to as being in 
the chains of hell (D&C 138:23).

What are the chains of hell?  The Book of Mormon explains it this way:

"And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until 
they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and 
led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell" (Alma 12:11).
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

Was Paul preaching when he sent his epistles? If Jesus said "tell them this word for word", would that be preaching to them, or is only direct, verbal delivery allowed? Joseph F. Smith doesn't seem to think so. So very much depends on how you define preaching, which highlights the weakness of adjudicating doctrines based on a presumed unanimity of definitions across thousands of years of scripture. I would argue that if this interpretation bothers you, you will also have a hard time with the appropriation of the Old Testament by the Gospel authors. Do you?

The same thing happens for Christ's reference to paradise when he addressed one of the thieves 
on the cross.

"Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).

The church teaches this is a mistranslation, like other mistranslations Joseph Smith believed in.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/paradise?lang=eng

A second use of the word paradise is found in Luke's account of the Savior's Crucifixion. When 
Jesus was on the cross, a thief who also was being crucified said, "Lord, remember me when thou 
comest into thy kingdom." The Lord replied, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me 
in paradise."  The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that this is a mistranslation; the Lord actually 
said that the thief would be with Him in the world of spirits".

Since Jesus is with the thief, they are either both in paradise or in the LDS spirit prison.

A similar Greek use of paradise in Luke 23:43 is found in Revelation 2:7 and 2 Corinthians 12:4.
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

Even if I were to grant your basic objection for the sake of charity, it would then seem that Peter knew that Christ went to the world of spirits to preach, but that doesn't mean he knew all the details about it. Likewise, Joseph Smith Jr. seems to have taken Peter at his word and not inquired further. Prophets miss details (1 Nephi 15:27; 3 Nephi 23:7-13) and even the most momentous revelation can be ambiguous and up to interpretation (Acts 10-11). That's what ongoing revelation is for.

I don't have all the details about Luke 23:43, but I'll take Christ as his word – he and the thief 
being in paradise.

Same for Peter.  Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19-20).  

Some believe this is a reference to Christ preaching to the wicked spirits in the years before the 
flood through Noah's life instead of Christ visiting the wicked spirits between his death and 
resurrection.  

According to how the LDS Church defines the spirit world, spirit prison is one subset and paradise 
is the other.  

You can change the context and modify it to "Jesus did not go" but that would not agree with what 
Peter taught.

Joseph Smith updating certain parts of the Bible has led to different meanings from the original. 
Jehovah's Witnesses do the same with their New World Translation.  Jesus even becomes Michael the 
Archangel. Joseph Smith also added new sections to the Old Testament and made a few tweaks to the 
New Testament. 1,260 days becoming 1,260 years in Revelation 12 is just one example.
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

2. Incorrect Focus on "Paradise" as the Interpretive Key

Why are you so focused on the concept of "paradise" as an interpretive key to D&C 138 when that word does not appear even once in the text of the revelation? 

I agree with you in that the word "paradise" is not in D&C 138:12-14 but that hasn't stopped the 
LDS Church from making the connection.  I've addressed this already.

The connection is clearer when you read Alma 40:12,14.

"And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a 
state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall 
rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful 
looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, 
as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection".
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

What do you make of the assertion that you yourself quoted in Alma 40:12, in which "paradise" is defined as a state of being, as opposed to a place?

The state of being is not the same as a location.

But if you want to apply your logic, then the terrestrial, telestial, and celestial kingdom 
inhabitants are all in the same place; a key difference being their mental state.  You have joy 
and misery coexisting in God's presence. And the righteous spirits are coexisting in the same 
place as the wicked.

Speaking of misery, Joseph Smith taught :

"The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng

The phrase "Jesus went" implies him going to a place, not entering a state of being (emotionally).

Even Luke 16 (the parable of the rich man and Lazarus) denotes two places, where people from one 
section cannot traverse the other.  

But if you want to equate this with a state of being, then the rich man is not in hell and Lazarus 
in not in Abraham's bosom.  That would put them in the same place, only existing with different 
emotional states. This would mess up the meaning of the great gulf separating the two and people 
not being able to traverse the gulf.  Gospel Principles updates this teaching in stating that the 
wicked in spirit prison can go to paradise.

I believe paradise is a place that the righteous spirits go to.  They do not remain single, all 
by themselves, in a state of peace and happiness in their grave.

Imagine Jesus speaking to the good and wicked people gathered together on a hillside by the Sea 
of Galilee during the Sermon on the Mount.  Now picture someone claiming that Jesus went up to 
the Mount but the wicked did not hear his preaching.

LDS Church teachings also regard them as different places, not a state of being in the same place:

"The postmortal spirit world is a place where the spirits of those who have died live before the 
Resurrection. The spirit world consists of paradise, where the righteous dwell, and spirit prison, 
where those who were wicked in mortality dwell.

If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the 
spirit prison and dwell in paradise".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

The scripture says that Jesus did not go among "the wicked," "the ungodly and unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh," and "the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets." The nouns here are wicked, ungodly, unrepentant, and rebellious. What does D&C 138 not say? It says nothing about avoiding "prison", and it says nothing about going only to "paradise." This is a big problem for your argument, because your argument hinges entirely on the litigation of who is in paradise and who isn't, and the identification of the host of the just with paradise.

The only reference to paradise in Doctrine and Covenants 138 is in the introduction notes.  

1–10, President Joseph F. Smith ponders upon the writings of Peter and our Lord's visit to the 
spirit world; 11–24, President Smith sees the righteous dead assembled in paradise and Christ's 
ministry among them;

The other teachings of spirit paradise and spirit prison and who goes where are found in other 
teachings. I mentioned some above.

Do you find the unjust gathered in the same place as the just in Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14?  
Does darkness also reign in paradise (138:22)?
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

3. Incorrect Inference of Exclusivity from Mere Positive Statements

What does Revelation 20:6 say?

Does it assert that terrestrials are harmed by the second death? No. Does it say that only those who have part in the first resurrection escape the second death? No. On the contrary, Revelation 20:15 assigns the second death to those whose names are not written in the book of life. The book of life is not equated exclusively with the first resurrection, and since the judgment is placed after the Millennium, the roster of the book of life would seem to include those not resurrected in the first resurrection. What we have here is a positive statement, "A entails B"...but that does not mean "Not A entails Not B!" B could still happen independent of A!

You interpreted a positive statement (those of the first resurrection escape the second death) as an exclusive statement (only those of the first resurrection escape the second death.)  This is a basic logical error. (A-->B) does not entail (~A-->~B). Meanwhile, I note that, despite your extensive citation of D&C 76 in the above post, you don't mention D&C 76:31-37, which holds that the second death only has power over sons of perdition.

Those in the first resurrection are kings and priests (Revelation 1:6; 20:6).  Doctrine and 
Covenants 76 identifies them as gods, members of the Church of the Firstborn.

Do you believe terrestrial and telestials are in the first resurrection?
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

This same error (confusing positive statements for exclusive statements) is evident in your identification of D&C 138's "innumerable company of the spirits of the just" with "paradise." You do this a couple of times in the above post. I will go through these instances, placing your quote in the same quote box as the scripture it references. Where do you draw the authority for these assertions, since your citations don't provide it?

I didn't have anything extra to add here other than to refer you to what the LDS Church identifies 
as the spirit world being a place called paradise and another place called spirit prison.

If those teachings are in error, then it is what it is.
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

It doesn't say that paradise is only for that "vast congregation of the righteous" described therein.

I make that assertion based on Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14.

Maybe you're basing your statement on the belief that the wicked in spirit prison can repent, accept 
the ordinances of the gospel, and then travel to paradise.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:28 says, "And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said [Peter 
said went and preached] that the Son of God preached [the word "went" is omitted] unto the spirits 
in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days 
of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor 
among them in so short a time".

Do you believe this refers to the wicked humans who were killed in the global flood, wherein only 
8 were saved?
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

Does it say that only those who had a testimony of Jesus in the flesh are in paradise? Only if you identify the innumerable company of the spirits of the just exclusively with paradise, so that nobody else could be in that state. Your citation doesn't prove that! That is the very point in question! This argument is viciously circular!

Speaking of those in paradise, Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14 says, "And there were gathered 
together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful 
in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; And who had offered sacrifice in the 
similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's 
name. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through 
the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ".

ALL does not initially include the wicked who rejected the prophets in mortality (D&C 138:20-21).  
The "wicked" are not gathered together in the same subnet of the spirit world with the "righteous". 
 
While the LDS Church teaches those in spirit prison can eventually travel to paradise under certain 
conditions, it is not explicitly taught in scripture.

"If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave 
the spirit prison and dwell in paradise" (Gospel Principles, chapter 41).
  
Doctrine and Covenants 138 only shows the righteous (in paradise) being commissioned to go forth 
to preach the gospel to the lost (to those in spirit prison).

But Doctrine and Covenants 76:73 -75 has Jesus visiting the terrestrial inhabitants – "And also 
they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel 
unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony 
of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the 
earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men".

This seems to mark a time before their conversion and acceptance of the saving ordinances performed 
in the LDS Church.

Some of these honorable people were the wicked Hindus and Buddhists, who while living devout and 
noble lives, still followed their false leaders instead of believing Christian evangelists.

As we noted earlier, those who received a testimony of Jesus in the flesh, and who had died, were 
in paradise.
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

Your whole argument is dependent on the assertion that D&C 138 describes paradise in totality, as opposed to a subset of people within it, those who gathered to welcome the Lord at the moment of His death. But you fail to substantiate that with anything but circular references. And you rely heavily on the equation of "terrestrial" = "wicked", when that is not stated in D&C 76 nor established by Alma 40.

The terrestrials are identified as "honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness 
of men".

I would classify some of these as devout or nice people who heard about but rejected the gospel 
of Christ in mortality and listened to false teachers instead.  In God's eyes, they are the 
wicked; the condemned. Let's call them "group 1".

Another group of people could be classified as honorable – those who were devout in their religious 
or atheist/agnostic beliefs, were nice people, but never heard the gospel. They too were blinded 
somehow by the craftiness of men. They are wicked too. Let's call them "group 2".

I believe the following verses in the gospel according to John would be more applicable to 
terrestrial group 1:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him 
should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn 
the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not 
condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the 
name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the 
world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil". 

Do the terrestrials have the "paradise" qualifications of Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-15?  No.

Did Christ visit those whose deeds were evil in God's eyes and had died?  According to Doctrine 
and Covenants 76:73, I would say yes.

Based on what I provided about the LDS Church teachings, paradise and spirit prison are subsets 
of the spirit world.

The introduction notes of Alma 40 says:

"Christ brings to pass the resurrection of all men—The righteous dead go to paradise and the wicked 
to outer darkness to await the day of their resurrection".

Alma 34:32-35 describes this further.
 

On 4/28/2025 at 10:23 PM, OGHoosier said:

Now, this third argument that I have presented is pretty much vitiated by D&C 76:73, to be sure. That only matters, though, if (a) paradise is actually the interpretive key you make it out to be, which I have disputed, and (b) prison is a place, not a state of being like Alma describes. Even if both of those go your way, I will note that Joseph Smith Jr. himself updated D&C 76:72 with D&C 137:7-10 four years later. It appears that the descriptions of the "membership requirements" of the kingdoms of glory were "analytical overlay" contributed by Joseph Smith according to his understanding at the time of receiving the Vision in 1832. If he could update it in 1836 then so could Joseph F. Smith, who inherited his mantle. 

I see that Doctrine and Covenants 137 is a picture of those who are taught to have achieved their 
exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God. In another place it's called the celestial kingdom of 
heaven. The word "heirs" of the celestial kingdom of God in verse 7 is linked to D&C 76:50-70 (TG 
Exaltation). These are the gods/priests/kings of the Church of the Firstborn. They come forth in 
the first resurrection.