Overthrowing the church of God

[telnetd]

On 3/19/2025 at 7:25 PM, CV75 said:

What is the concern with Mosiah 27:13 (see also Mosiah 26:15-39; 3 Nephi 11:39; and 3 Nephi 27), that God established a church more than once in Zarahemla, that He established one in Jerusalem around the same time as the later one in Zarahemla, or that the transgression of His people overthrew one or more of these?

I don't believe man can overthrow Christ's church.

[telnetd]

On 3/20/2025 at 2:26 AM, InCognitus said:

The “great gulf” was bridged by Jesus Christ only after he went and preached the gospel to the spirits in prison (as mentioned in 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 4:6) while his body was in the tomb, between the time of his death and resurrection.

Who did he preach to?
 

On 3/20/2025 at 2:26 AM, InCognitus said:

 It is only the final establishment of God’s kingdom that shall “never be destroyed”.

What is God's kingdom on earth?

[california boy]

7 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I don't believe man can overthrow Christ's church.

  Evidently according to InCognitus, man can overthrow Christ's Church and has on several occasions.

 

On 3/20/2025 at 9:54 PM, InCognitus said:

Actually, that was my question to you.  Where in the world and what other period of time could God have set up his church to send missionaries to all the world, build temples, and be the headquarters of a world wide church?  Where could that have happened between 90 AD and 1830 and have it be preserved with same organization and teachings he intended up to the present time?  It’s an honest question. 

But all the examples you provided above are from when God was recovering His people and when they were trusting in direction from Him rather than following after their own whims. 

And your example of the Israelites fits your question perfectly, because it provides us some very good examples for comparison.  God called Moses as a prophet to gather the house of Israel after they had been in bondage for over 400 years. Why the 400 years?  Why not sooner?  And Moses led them out of bondage and to Mount Sinai (essentially the temple) where God gave them a covenant, a covenant that they promptly broke, resulting in God giving them a lesser covenant more fitting to their circumstances.  God led them into their promised land and also promised them great blessings if they would keep their covenant, but he also told them they would be scattered among the nations if they broke their covenants. 

And I think you know what happened to them a few hundred years after that:  The ten northern tribes became rebellious and were scattered among the nations, and then (another few hundred years later) the remaining tribes rejected Jesus as the Messiah and they were scattered among the nations.

In Luke chapter 21, when the disciples asked Jesus about the timing of the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem, Jesus prophesied of the destruction of the temple and of the scattering of the Jews and even foretold how long it would last: 

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.  Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”  (Luke 21:20–24)

So according to Jesus, all of the Israelites would be scattered and Jerusalem would be “trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

How long has Jerusalem been trodden down by the Gentiles?  The Jewish Virtual Library website has a timeline that summarizes the history quite well:  History of Jerusalem: Timeline for the History of Jerusalem

The timeline shows that during the “Roman Period (70 – 324 CE)” that Roman forces destroyed Jerusalem and demolished the second temple in 70 CE.  And it’s not until the bottom of the summary in the “Reunification (1967-Present)” section that it says Israel captured Jerusalem’s Old City and the Eastern half and reunites the city in 1967.

From 70 AD to 1967, that’s a total of 1,897 years from the time Jerusalem was destroyed and “trodden down by the Gentiles” until it was reoccupied in 1967.  And add to that another 700+ years for the time the northern tribes of Israel were scattered among the nations. That's a very long time.  And (as Jesus prophesied) Israel would remain in that scattered state at least until Jerusalem was no longer trodden down by the Gentiles.  And Israel is being gathered again now as part of the restoration.

Now, you gave examples of God protecting his people.  But how do you explain the prophecy of Luke 21:20-24 and the roughly 1,897 years that Israel would be in apostasy and scattered among the nations before God would begin to restore them again?

I see this as a direct parallel to the roughly 1,700-year period of apostasy of Christ’s church that we have been discussing. 

So why would God leave Christ's church and the house of Israel in this fallen state for such a long period of time?  I believe it's because of the reasons I gave you before, the overall plan of salvation includes the preaching the gospel to the dead and provides a way to recover all of those individuals in all periods of time.  God looks at the big picture, and judges each individual according to the light and truth they are given in whatever period of time they live in.

Your question above hits to the very heart of the survival problem and also at the very cause of the “captivity” that prevented freedom of belief and the pursuit of truth, because it was the same controlling governmental forces that persecuted Christianity that later adopted it as a means of perpetuating their power and control over the people. 

In 325 AD at the first Nicene Council, the Roman emperor Constantine was the one who insisted that a specific word be inserted into the creed that later redefined the oneness of God, as a way of supposedly unifying Christianity (the word is now the core of the doctrine of the Trinity, it is the word (homoousious) that defines the three persons as one substance or one being). 

And then on November 27, 380 AD, Theodosius I (the Roman emperor from 379 to 395), Gratian (the emperor of the Western Roman Empire from 367 to 383) and Valentinian II (the Roman emperor in the western part of the Roman Empire between AD 375 and 392), published the "Edict of Thessalonica", whereby they ordered that all their subjects should profess the faith of the bishops of Rome and Alexandria, threatening both divine punishment and imperial retribution for those who rejected the Nicene creed. 

So, the “true faith” became a matter for the state, and those who opposed it were executed.  That’s how they survived.

Right, in the beginning and in dire times.  And that’s how it worked in early Christianity and in the early days of the restoration.  But how could that be perpetuated throughout the world in the environment I described immediately above?

I see where you are coming from. But you are not able to show that the ENTIRE world would not allow for the Church to exist.  There are places in the world now that the Church can not exist.  China for example.  Even during the Egyptian captivity, even though it was suppressed, it still managed to survive.  I have a hard time believing that if God wanted the Church to provide, there would have been places that could have supported that Church.  What you describe seems like a pretty flawed plan.  Or the only other conclusion to be drawn is as you seem to believe, that it is not really necessary or even important to have the Church during one's lifetime.

 I guess that is good news for me.  I certainly feel like the Church is not something I can have in my life while here on earth.  

 

 

[CV75]

45 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I don't believe man can overthrow Christ's church.

Semantics.

[InCognitus]

22 hours ago, telnetd said:

Who did he preach to?

He preached to the spirits in "prison", as Doctrine and Covenants 138:50 tells us that “the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage”.  So both the righteous and the wicked were considered to be in spirit “prison” in that regard.  But Jesus didn't preach to the wicked (those who would be of the Telestial realm).  He sent others to do that.

22 hours ago, telnetd said:

What is God's kingdom on earth?

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.2, KINGDOM OF GOD

Quote

On Earth

The kingdom of God on earth exists wherever the priesthood of God is (TPJS, pp. 271-74). At present it is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church was established by divine authority to prepare its members to live forever in the Celestial Kingdom or kingdom of God in heaven. Its nature is ecclesiastical and nonpolitical. It "asserts no claim to temporal rule over nations; its scepter of power is that of the Holy Priesthood, to be used in the preaching of the gospel and in administering its ordinances for the salvation of mankind living and dead" (JC, p. 788).

The kingdom of God on the earth is the stone, spoken of by Daniel, that in the latter days would roll forth to fill the earth and never be destroyed (Dan. 2:34-45). It is the kingdom that the Savior prayed would come (Matt. 6:10), and he taught us to pray in like manner. In the meridian of time Jesus set up the kingdom of God on earth, called and ordained apostles and prophets, bestowed the necessary priesthood authority (Matt. 16:19; John 15:16), and charged them with the responsibilities of the Church. After an apostasy removed that priesthood from earth, the authority to reestablish the kingdom of God on the earth was given to the Prophet Joseph Smith by heavenly messengers (see Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ). Through Joseph Smith the Lord said:

The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth…. Call upon the Lord, that his kingdom may go forth upon the earth, that the inhabitants thereof may receive it, and be prepared for the days to come, in the which the Son of Man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory, to meet the kingdom of God which is set up on the earth. Wherefore, may the kingdom of God go forth, that the kingdom of heaven may come [D&C 65:2, 5-6].

 

[InCognitus]

22 hours ago, california boy said:

Evidently according to InCognitus, man can overthrow Christ's Church and has on several occasions.

Only from an earthly point of view, of course.  Christ's church is built upon the rock of revelation, therefore it can never be really destroyed completely, because it can be restored by revelation when the time is ready.

22 hours ago, california boy said:

I see where you are coming from. But you are not able to show that the ENTIRE world would not allow for the Church to exist.  There are places in the world now that the Church can not exist.  China for example.  Even during the Egyptian captivity, even though it was suppressed, it still managed to survive.  I have a hard time believing that if God wanted the Church to provide, there would have been places that could have supported that Church.  What you describe seems like a pretty flawed plan.  Or the only other conclusion to be drawn is as you seem to believe, that it is not really necessary or even important to have the Church during one's lifetime.

 I guess that is good news for me.  I certainly feel like the Church is not something I can have in my life while here on earth.

Well, in the ENTIRE world maybe some remote areas (like Antarctica?) might work for a while (I'm kidding of course), but since the point would be to preach the gospel to all the world, it would need to be an accessible location and it would draw a lot of attention to itself which would result in the same kinds of governmental controls, persecution, and martyrdom of the true saints of God that led up to the great apostasy to begin with. 

There are several allegories or parables in scripture that teach the principles that I believe are how God looks at the big picture.  The allegory of the tame and wild olive trees in Jacob chapter 5, the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:24–25, are two examples.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Well, in the ENTIRE world maybe some remote areas (like Antarctica?) might work for a while (I'm kidding of course), but since the point would be to preach the gospel to all the world, it would need to be an accessible location and it would draw a lot of attention to itself which would result in the same kinds of governmental controls, persecution, and martyrdom of the true saints of God that led up to the great apostasy to begin with. 

It seems to me two very different cultures were needed to provide the requirements for the acting out of the mortal part of the Atonement (not only the attitudes present that lack of awareness of the world, but slow transportation and communication allowing for more isolation, no one powerful enough sweeping in last minute to save the day or at least disrupt and slow things down, I don’t think the crucifixion could have happened if the world was watching…plus there would be the issue of faith if there was better documentation of the multiple miracles, even video evidence) and for the Church to be able to spread the gospel in an intact enough form and to be able to create a truly global Church where the most distant member has access to the prophetic revelation of current leaders almost as easily as those in the actual presence of the prophets.  For the latter, we aren’t quite there yet, imo, but it seems quite close (more a logistics issue than a technology one at this point).  This does not equate to a world that allows the gospel to flourish everywhere.  That promise seems to be about the Millennium.

If my interpretation is even a bit accurate, it would seem to be an inherent requirement that there would be an extensive time between Christ’s mortal experience and the fulfillment of preaching the gospel to the world (for technology to develop sufficiently)…and therefore lots of opportunities for things to get derailed and require a restoration for the latter occurrence to take place.

Edited March 25, 2025 by Calm

[CV75]

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Only from an earthly point of view, of course.  Christ's church is built upon the rock of revelation, therefore it can never be really destroyed completely, because it can be restored by revelation when the time is ready.

Well, in the ENTIRE world maybe some remote areas (like Antarctica?) might work for a while (I'm kidding of course), but since the point would be to preach the gospel to all the world, it would need to be an accessible location and it would draw a lot of attention to itself which would result in the same kinds of governmental controls, persecution, and martyrdom of the true saints of God that led up to the great apostasy to begin with. 

There are several allegories or parables in scripture that teach the principles that I believe are how God looks at the big picture.  The allegory of the tame and wild olive trees in Jacob chapter 5, the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:24–25, are two examples.

@california boy as well. I like this scripture: 1 Nephi 19: 7, "For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet ["overthrow"]. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet ["overthrow"]; I say, trample under their feet ["overthrow"] but I would speak in other words—they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels."

Many years later Mosiah 27:13 says, "...For the Lord hath said: This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people."

Jacob 5 also teaches that the entire ("ENTIRE") vineyard became corrupted. It was indeed overthrown by wild fruit. But the Lord had a comeback for that. So His kingdom on earth can be, and was expected to be, overthrown temporarily. Just as He was supposed to be betrayed and die temporarily ["overthrown"], and just because it's temporary doesn't mean it isn't the most horrible thing that could have happened in this world, offset according to the law of opposition with His resurrection, the most wonderful thing that could have happened in this world.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. (John 12: 24, 25)."

Yet people expect goodness to always prevail in every circumstance. At some level, this validates whatever they see fit to do. But the guarantee for goodness to prevail eternally are the prevailing conditions of agency in mortality. Everyone gets this in their physical lifetime, and then in the spirit world if the Church has not been a part of that. They do benefit from the Church in its limited (and absolutely necessary, no matter how relatively brief) presence on the earth by proxy, as thoroughly if they had it in their mortal lifetime. Just as we apply the scriptures to ourselves, they retrospectively apply the ordinances to their mortal experience (Peter 1:4, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.").

[InCognitus]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

If my interpretation is even a bit accurate, it would seem to be an inherent requirement that there would be an extensive time between Christ’s mortal experience and the fulfillment of preaching the gospel to the world (for technology to develop sufficiently)…and therefore lots of opportunities for things to get derailed and require a restoration for the latter occurrence to take place.

I agree completely.  There's no coincidence that the technology advancements in communication and travel have been inspired to help with preaching the gospel to the world and to provide access to temple covenants for all those who desire to have them.

About a week ago I finished all four volumes of Saints.  It was interesting to read of the challenges in getting the temple ordinances ready in German, French, Danish, Dutch, Norwegian, and the Swedish languages prior to the dedication of the Bern Switzerland Temple in 1955, and I didn't realize that the church created a film for the endowment ceremony in 1955 in those six languages in order to reduce the number of temple workers needed.  And getting a temple built in Freiberg Germany was another challenge, along with maintaining the church behind the Berlin Wall.  

So it's still a struggle in modern times, but doors have been opened.

[telnetd]

On 3/25/2025 at 11:19 AM, InCognitus said:

So both the righteous and the wicked were considered to be in spirit “prison” in that regard.  But Jesus didn't preach to the wicked (those who would be of the Telestial realm).  He sent others to do that.

What of the terrestrials?

[telnetd]

On 3/24/2025 at 12:40 PM, california boy said:

There are places in the world now that the Church can not exist.  China for example.

The church in China is more spiritually strong than churches in the west. Persecution
makes it stronger.

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

What of the terrestrials?

Aren't they implied as being included in what I posted above?  (Yes, they are.)

[The Nehor]

On 3/24/2025 at 11:19 AM, telnetd said:

I don't believe man can overthrow Christ's church.

Well not with that attitude.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, telnetd said:

The church in China is more spiritually strong than churches in the west. Persecution
makes it stronger.

Does it though? I am not convinced. I keep hearing that hard times make for strong people and they can but it also creates a lot of very broken people.

If persecution made the Church strong then leaving Missouri and Illinois to go somewhere safer was a bad move.

[telnetd]

On 3/27/2025 at 3:52 PM, The Nehor said:

If persecution made the Church strong then leaving Missouri and Illinois to go somewhere safer was a bad move.

They were expelled for apostasy.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

They were expelled for apostasy.

who is they that you are referring to?  The Church?

 

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

They were expelled for apostasy.

Right.  They were hated and persecuted, spoken against everywhere, were said to be teaching heresy, had false things said against them and were said to be speaking blasphemy and teachings doctrines contrary to scripture.  But wait, that's all from the book of Acts (Acts 6:11-14, Acts 21:27-28,Acts 24:14, and Acts 28:22).  Sounds familiar.

[OGHoosier]

On 3/21/2025 at 12:54 AM, InCognitus said:

So, the “true faith” became a matter for the state, and those who opposed it were executed.  That’s how they survived.

I have some nagging thoughts that a) this needed to occur in order for Christianity to survive the decline of Roman patrimony/the rise of Islam in institutional form, and b) by making Christianity a government problem, it also increased Christianity's exposure to contemporary philosophical disputes, thus warping the definitions through time. It seems that, as usual, God acts through a cycle of death/resurrection as opposed to eternal persistence.

[InCognitus]

10 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

I have some nagging thoughts that a) this needed to occur in order for Christianity to survive the decline of Roman patrimony/the rise of Islam in institutional form, and b) by making Christianity a government problem, it also increased Christianity's exposure to contemporary philosophical disputes, thus warping the definitions through time. It seems that, as usual, God acts through a cycle of death/resurrection as opposed to eternal persistence.

I agree completely. 

Also, even though Christ's church didn't continue in its original organization, authority, covenants, or all of its original teachings, the continuation of Christianity (in some form) was crucial to planting the seeds of Christ's teachings all around the world to facilitate the preaching of the restored gospel in the last days and for the preservation of the biblical texts.  Where would we be today without that?

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Also, even though Christ's church didn't continue in its original organization, authority, covenants, or all of its original teachings, the continuation of Christianity (in some form) was crucial to planting the seeds of Christ's teachings all around the world to facilitate the preaching of the restored gospel in the last days and for the preservation of the biblical texts.  Where would we be today without that?

Yep. 100%. 

John 12:24, 1 Corinthians 15:36. 

I find that the history of the world and of my own life makes a lot more sense if we view God as working through a cycle of death and resurrection, letting decaying syntheses die and bringing the good of it back to life, as opposed to preventing errors in the first instance. Proving contraries. That is what it means for the gates of hell to not prevail - they cannot keep God's work in. Believers in Christ of all denominations are fellow servants, and indeed believers of all religions oriented towards good principles are fellow servants in a broad sense.

[theplains]

On 3/25/2025 at 11:19 AM, InCognitus said:

So both the righteous and the wicked were considered to be in spirit “prison” in that regard.  But Jesus didn't preach to the wicked (those who would be of the Telestial realm).  He sent others to do that.

@telnetd

A former member of the First Presidency taught Jesus visited the wicked spirits in spirit prison 
and preached the gospel to them.

"The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine 
preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors 
of the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come, 
in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness 
because of their sins—who may be in the condition of the snvediluvians, whom the Lord consigatd 
to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and 
those associated with him.  The Lord had promised His servants, however, that these people should 
be visited after they had atoned to some extent for their violation of His laws; and this was the 
glorious mission of our Lord and Savior Jesus while His body lay in the sepulchre.  He went into 
the spirit world and visited these spirits in prison, unlocked the doors of their prisons and 
started again the work of preaching salvation to them to see whether, after having endured the 
wrath of God from the time when they were overwhelmed with the flood until then, they would 
receive the Gospel of salvation and repent of their sins. That is the labor that we have upon us 
as a people, both here and hereafter". (Millennial Star. 1899-02-23: Volume 61, Issue 8, pages 
115-116)

It's also published in "Gospel Truth - Volume 1".

Joseph F Smith (Doctrine and Covenants 138:20-22,29) said Christ did not visit the wicked, the
ungodly, the unrepentant, or those who rejected warnings of the prophets and the truth. He only 
visited those who died with a testimony of him in mortality and firm in the hope of a resurrection
(D&C 138:12-14).

But the supposed revelation in 1832 (D&C 76:71-75) would confirm the teaching of George Q. Cannon 
(Millennial Star).  Jesus also visited those in misery (the terrestrials who did not have a 
testimony of him in mortality). The so-called "honorable" mean were blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4:4).  
D&C 76:72 says "Behold, these are they who died without law".  This passage is linked to Romans 
2:12 ("For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have 
sinned in the law shall be judged by the law".
 
One other thing. Regarding what is written about the wicked and the righteous in spirit prison, 
only the righteous in paradise are specifically described as being in chains of hell (D&C 138:23)

Latter-day Saints use 1 Peter 3:19 to confirm their belief that Christ went to preach to the spirits 
in prison, but they seem to only focus on him preaching to the righteous spirits.

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison".

But the following verse indicates that these spirits were the wicked of Noah's day, who
rejected his message.

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, 
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".

That is confirmed in a 2019 General Conference talk.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng

"The wicked also suffer an additional bondage. Because of unrepented sins, they are in what the 
Apostle Peter referred to as spirit “prison” (1 Peter 3:19; see also Doctrine and Covenants 138:42). 
These spirits are described as “bound” or as “captives” (Doctrine and Covenants 138:31, 42) or as 
“cast out into outer darkness” with “weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth” as they await 
resurrection and judgment (Alma 40:13–14)".

It is also confirmed in this teaching by Joseph F. Smith.

https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-f-smith-reflections-man-his-times/development-understanding-postmortal-spirit-world

"The separation of the just and the unjust described in Alma 40 of the Book of Mormon suggests 
that there is a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous in the spirit world. In 
addition to the writings of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith further taught, “Jesus Christ 
became a ministering spirit (while His body was lying in the sepulchre) to the spirits in 
prison, to fulfill an important part of His mission.” [2] Joseph also taught, “Peter, also, 
in speaking concerning our Savior, says that, ‘He went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 
which sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of 
Noah,’ (1 Peter 3:19, 20). Here then we have an account of our Savior preaching to the spirits 
in prison, to spirits that had been imprisoned from the days of Noah".

These were the wicked people who had rejected the message in the days of Noah.

[telnetd]

On 3/29/2025 at 11:42 AM, InCognitus said:

Right.  They were hated and persecuted, spoken against everywhere, were said to be teaching heresy, had false things said against them and were said to be speaking blasphemy and teachings doctrines contrary to scripture.  But wait, that's all from the book of Acts (Acts 6:11-14, Acts 21:27-28,Acts 24:14, and Acts 28:22).  Sounds familiar.

"Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted
and cast out from the land of their inheritance—I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to
come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions"
(reference).

[telnetd]

On 3/29/2025 at 10:59 AM, california boy said:

who is they that you are referring to?  The Church?

 

The Latter-day Saints. See this reference.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

@telnetd

A former member of the First Presidency taught Jesus visited the wicked spirits in spirit prison 
and preached the gospel to them.

"The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine 
preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors 
of the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come, 
in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness 
because of their sins—who may be in the condition of the snvediluvians, whom the Lord consigatd 
to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and 
those associated with him.  The Lord had promised His servants, however, that these people should 
be visited after they had atoned to some extent for their violation of His laws; and this was the 
glorious mission of our Lord and Savior Jesus while His body lay in the sepulchre.  He went into 
the spirit world and visited these spirits in prison, unlocked the doors of their prisons and 
started again the work of preaching salvation to them to see whether, after having endured the 
wrath of God from the time when they were overwhelmed with the flood until then, they would 
receive the Gospel of salvation and repent of their sins. That is the labor that we have upon us 
as a people, both here and hereafter". (Millennial Star. 1899-02-23: Volume 61, Issue 8, pages 
115-116)

It's also published in "Gospel Truth - Volume 1".

Joseph F Smith (Doctrine and Covenants 138:20-22,29) said Christ did not visit the wicked, the
ungodly, the unrepentant, or those who rejected warnings of the prophets and the truth. He only 
visited those who died with a testimony of him in mortality and firm in the hope of a resurrection
(D&C 138:12-14).

But the supposed revelation in 1832 (D&C 76:71-75) would confirm the teaching of George Q. Cannon 
(Millennial Star).  Jesus also visited those in misery (the terrestrials who did not have a 
testimony of him in mortality). The so-called "honorable" mean were blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4:4).  
D&C 76:72 says "Behold, these are they who died without law".  This passage is linked to Romans 
2:12 ("For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have 
sinned in the law shall be judged by the law".
 
One other thing. Regarding what is written about the wicked and the righteous in spirit prison, 
only the righteous in paradise are specifically described as being in chains of hell (D&C 138:23)

Latter-day Saints use 1 Peter 3:19 to confirm their belief that Christ went to preach to the spirits 
in prison, but they seem to only focus on him preaching to the righteous spirits.

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison".

But the following verse indicates that these spirits were the wicked of Noah's day, who
rejected his message.

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, 
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".

That is confirmed in a 2019 General Conference talk.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng

"The wicked also suffer an additional bondage. Because of unrepented sins, they are in what the 
Apostle Peter referred to as spirit “prison” (1 Peter 3:19; see also Doctrine and Covenants 138:42). 
These spirits are described as “bound” or as “captives” (Doctrine and Covenants 138:31, 42) or as 
“cast out into outer darkness” with “weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth” as they await 
resurrection and judgment (Alma 40:13–14)".

It is also confirmed in this teaching by Joseph F. Smith.

https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-f-smith-reflections-man-his-times/development-understanding-postmortal-spirit-world

"The separation of the just and the unjust described in Alma 40 of the Book of Mormon suggests 
that there is a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous in the spirit world. In 
addition to the writings of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith further taught, “Jesus Christ 
became a ministering spirit (while His body was lying in the sepulchre) to the spirits in 
prison, to fulfill an important part of His mission.” [2] Joseph also taught, “Peter, also, 
in speaking concerning our Savior, says that, ‘He went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 
which sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of 
Noah,’ (1 Peter 3:19, 20). Here then we have an account of our Savior preaching to the spirits 
in prison, to spirits that had been imprisoned from the days of Noah".

These were the wicked people who had rejected the message in the days of Noah.

Wow, you go through so much trouble only to get things so screwed up!  

[InCognitus]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

@telnetd

A former member of the First Presidency taught Jesus visited the wicked spirits in spirit prison 
and preached the gospel to them.

"The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine 
preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors 
of the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come, 
in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness 
because of their sins—who may be in the condition of the snvediluvians, whom the Lord consigatd 
to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and 
those associated with him.  The Lord had promised His servants, however, that these people should 
be visited after they had atoned to some extent for their violation of His laws; and this was the 
glorious mission of our Lord and Savior Jesus while His body lay in the sepulchre.  He went into 
the spirit world and visited these spirits in prison, unlocked the doors of their prisons and 
started again the work of preaching salvation to them to see whether, after having endured the 
wrath of God from the time when they were overwhelmed with the flood until then, they would 
receive the Gospel of salvation and repent of their sins. That is the labor that we have upon us 
as a people, both here and hereafter". (Millennial Star. 1899-02-23: Volume 61, Issue 8, pages 
115-116)

It's also published in "Gospel Truth - Volume 1".

Since you, telnetd, and GoCeltics are one in the same and playing off each other’s posts, you knew that you had already posted this question in the other topic thread and I already answered it.

I said:

First of all, Section 138:50 tells us that “the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage”, so both the righteous and the wicked were considered to be in spirit “prison”.  And in Luke 4:18, Jesus quoted from Isaiah 61:1 in application to himself, where it tells us that he is “to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound”.  That is for the righteous.

Second, Section 138:20 says that Jesus did not go to the wicked or the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and warnings of the ancient prophets.  On the other hand, Section 76 tells us that Jesus went to those who “died without law” and to the “honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (verses 72 and 75), and Section 76 defines the wicked and rebellious (the “liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie”, verse 103) as those of the Telestial kingdom and Jesus did not preach to them. So there is nothing incompatible between these teachings.

14 hours ago, theplains said:

Joseph F Smith (Doctrine and Covenants 138:20-22,29) said Christ did not visit the wicked, the
ungodly, the unrepentant, or those who rejected warnings of the prophets and the truth. He only 
visited those who died with a testimony of him in mortality and firm in the hope of a resurrection
(D&C 138:12-14).

You are not reading the context.  The purpose of the revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 138 was to primarily answer the following question:  How was it possible for the Son of God to preach to all the spirits in the spirit world and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time?

Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14 introduces the answer to the question by describing those who had gathered to wait for Jesus to come to the spirit world, they were those who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality, “they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand”.  

Verses 18-19 say, “While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;  And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.”

Clearly these verses above describe those who would inherit the celestial kingdom.  They are the focus of this revelation because they are those whom Jesus called to preach the gospel to the wicked.

The revelation also describes the group of people that Jesus did not go to teach.  This is explained in verses 20-22 where it says, “unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.”

Verse 29 also describes those to whom he did not go to teach, “the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them”.

The people that Jesus did not go to teach are obviously those who would inherit the telestial kingdom. 

But what about those of the terrestrial kingdom?  They are not included among those that Jesus did not teach as described in verses 20-22 and 29 of section 138. The individuals of the terrestrial world would be those who died without law, those who didn’t receive a testimony of Jesus in the flesh (they may not have been taught the gospel while in mortality) but afterward would receive it, the honorable men of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men (see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-77).

While Doctrine and Covenants section 138 doesn’t specifically say that Jesus taught those people, Doctrine and Covenants 76:73-74 says he did: “And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;  Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.”

So Jesus began the work of teaching the gospel to all who have died, some of them he taught personally in the short time he had between his death and the resurrection, but others were taught by those who Jesus sent to teach them. There is nothing in what was revealed in section 138 that denies Jesus the privilege of speaking to all those who were repentant.  Jesus went first to the righteous but then taught the repentant, "that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6).

14 hours ago, theplains said:

But the supposed revelation in 1832 (D&C 76:71-75) would confirm the teaching of George Q. Cannon 
(Millennial Star).  Jesus also visited those in misery (the terrestrials who did not have a 
testimony of him in mortality). The so-called "honorable" mean were blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4:4).  
D&C 76:72 says "Behold, these are they who died without law".  This passage is linked to Romans 
2:12 ("For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have 
sinned in the law shall be judged by the law".

The context of Romans 2:12 is important:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)  16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”  (Romans 2:12–16)

Those verses explain that everyone is judged according to the knowledge they are given while in mortality.  Those who have no law are not as accountable as those who know God’s commandments.  This is also explained in a parable by Jesus in Luke 12:43-48:

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.  (Luke 12:43–48)

14 hours ago, theplains said:

One other thing. Regarding what is written about the wicked and the righteous in spirit prison, 
only the righteous in paradise are specifically described as being in chains of hell (D&C 138:23)

This is a strange objection.  Everyone should be thanking Jesus for their redemption from the chains of hell, don’t you think?  For without Jesus and his atonement, where would we all be?

Doctrine and Covenants 138:23 describes this deliverance: “And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell”.   Hell in this context is the hades “hell”, which is death or the grave.  As the same section explains later, “For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 138:50)

And this is what Jesus also proclaimed of himself:  “Fear not; I am the first and the last:  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”  (Revelation 1:17–18)

14 hours ago, theplains said:

Latter-day Saints use 1 Peter 3:19 to confirm their belief that Christ went to preach to the spirits 
in prison, but they seem to only focus on him preaching to the righteous spirits.

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison".

But the following verse indicates that these spirits were the wicked of Noah's day, who
rejected his message.

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, 
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".

That is confirmed in a 2019 General Conference talk.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng

"The wicked also suffer an additional bondage. Because of unrepented sins, they are in what the 
Apostle Peter referred to as spirit “prison” (1 Peter 3:19; see also Doctrine and Covenants 138:42). 
These spirits are described as “bound” or as “captives” (Doctrine and Covenants 138:31, 42) or as 
“cast out into outer darkness” with “weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth” as they await 
resurrection and judgment (Alma 40:13–14)".

It is also confirmed in this teaching by Joseph F. Smith.

https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-f-smith-reflections-man-his-times/development-understanding-postmortal-spirit-world

"The separation of the just and the unjust described in Alma 40 of the Book of Mormon suggests 
that there is a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous in the spirit world. In 
addition to the writings of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith further taught, “Jesus Christ 
became a ministering spirit (while His body was lying in the sepulchre) to the spirits in 
prison, to fulfill an important part of His mission.” [2] Joseph also taught, “Peter, also, 
in speaking concerning our Savior, says that, ‘He went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 
which sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of 
Noah,’ (1 Peter 3:19, 20). Here then we have an account of our Savior preaching to the spirits 
in prison, to spirits that had been imprisoned from the days of Noah".

These were the wicked people who had rejected the message in the days of Noah.

Do you believe everyone who lived at the time of Noah heard his warning and rejected his message?  I don’t see how that is possible, do you?

The disobedient at the time of Noah could include a vast number of people who simply didn’t know any better. And as explained above, there isn’t anything in section 138 that denies that Jesus didn’t teach the repentant spirits in prison.