Overthrowing the church of God

[theplains]

On 4/28/2025 at 11:36 PM, InCognitus said:

The word “paradise” is not found anywhere in section 138.  So you are making up your own definition of paradise which has already been pointed out to you is in error.

It doesn’t say what you claim.

What these verses describe are the people that greeted Jesus when he arrived.  But nowhere in section 138 does it exclude the people of the terrestrial realm from Jesus’ visit, and section 76 specifically says Jesus taught the people of the terrestrial realm as well.

The LDS Church includes the word "paradise" in the Introduction notes of section 138 and teaches 
that the spirit world includes two parts: spirit prison and spirit paradise. See my larger reply 
to oghossier.

Of the terrestrials who Jesus is mentioned as visiting, it says, "These are they who are honorable
men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men".

Suppose you have Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims who have lived good and honorable lives in the eyes 
of man. They allowed themselves to be blinded by the craftiness of men, rejected the Atonement of 
Christ, and even worshipped idols made of stone and wood.

Does God view them as wicked and in darkness?
 

On 4/28/2025 at 11:36 PM, InCognitus said:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33–34 teaches:

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;  And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.”

This is referring to the resurrection.  When spirit and body inseparably connected, the individual will “receive a fulness of joy”.  Couple that with Doctrine and Covenants 138:14-17 which is also clearly talking about the resurrection:

I'm familiar with 93:33-34.

My references to achieving the fulness of joy were describing the exalted beings, those who met 
certain conditions.

Here are some examples:

"The commandment to multiply and replenish the earth has never been rescinded. It is essential 
to the plan of redemption and is the source of human happiness. Through the righteous exercise 
of this power, we may come close to our Father in Heaven and experience a fulness of joy, even 
godhood. The power of procreation is not an incidental part of the plan; it is the plan of 
happiness; it is the key to happiness" (The Plan of Happiness, Boyd K. Packer, President of the 
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general–conference/2015/04/the–plan–of–happiness?lang=eng

"A fullness of joy is found only within the framework of an exalted family. Some people may scoff 
at the seventh commandment, which requires chastity before marriage and fidelity afterward, but 
"political correctness" is not a substitute for the plan of happiness" (The Eternal Family, 
Merrill J. Bateman, President of Brigham Young University, January 6, 1998)

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/merrill-j-bateman/eternal-family

"God wants you to find and keep joy in this world and in the world to come. You have been specially 
endowed with a celestial nature that is to grow into a fullness of joy" (A Joyful Heart, Dale E. 
Miller, June 8, 2004).

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dale-e-miller/joyful-heart/

"How, then, does a man imitate God, follow his steps, and walk as he walked, which we are commanded 
to do? We must study the life of Christ, learn his commandments, and do them. God has promised that 
to follow this course will lead a man to an abundant life and a fullness of joy and the peace and 
rest which those who are heavy-burdened long for" (Listen to a Prophet's Voice, Elder Ezra Taft 
Benson, Of the Council of the Twelve)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1973/01/listen-to-a-prophets-voice?lang=eng

"You are the stage manager—you are the one who decides which thought will occupy the stage. Remember, 
the Lord wants you to have a fullness of joy like His" (Think on Christ, President Ezra Taft Benson).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1984/04/think-on-christ?lang=eng
https://speeches.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Benson_Ezra_1983_10.pdf

"Neither is it enough to be a good, solid citizen, contributing to charities, serving on community 
boards, and in general living a good Christian life. Although commendable, this is not sufficient 
to entitle one to the fulness of joy and the eternal life that our Father in heaven has promised 
to those who love him and keep his commandments" (Just for Today, President N. Eldon Tanner, First 
Counselor in the First Presidency).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1975/01/just-for-today?lang=eng

"If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have 
received"

"At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. 
However, we also learned that not all of our Father's children would want to receive a fulness 
of joy. Some of us would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose our way"

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we 
would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy".

"We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy".

"Blessings of Exaltation:  They will become gods. They will receive a fulness of joy".

(Gospel Principles, 1997).

There are even parts in the Book of Mormon where living mortals possessed a fulness of joy.

"And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; 
yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this 
generation; for none of them are lost. Behold, I would that ye should understand; for I mean them 
who are now alive of this generation; and none of them are lost; and in them I have fulness of 
joy" (3 Nephi 27:30-31).

"And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my 
Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye 
shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one" (3 Nephi 28:10).
 

On 4/28/2025 at 11:36 PM, InCognitus said:

“All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.  I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.  They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.  Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 138:14-17)

This passage is for those in paradise, not spirit prison. The terrestrials and telestials do not 
satisfy the conditions of 138:12-15.  I see it adding some clarity to Doctrine and Covenants 
93:33–34, which you mentioned earlier. 
 

On 4/28/2025 at 11:36 PM, InCognitus said:

Furthermore, everyone will be resurrected from the dead (the wicked and the righteous – John 5:29).  And those who are resurrected to eternal life will receive a greater “fulness of joy” having the kind of life that God has.

Regarding the passage you mentioned earlier:

"For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive 
a fulness of joy;  And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy."

This, I take, is your reference to resurrection causing someone to have a fulness of joy.

There are only two states: a resurrection and no resurrection.  There is no idea of a lesser or 
greater degree of fulness.  An empty glass is not a fulness.  A partially-full glass is not a 
fulness.

You made me think about something.

1] Spirits are eternal and uncreated according to the Pearl of Great Price.
2] Spirits have spirit bodies.
3] Spirit bodies are made of pure matter (eternal elements).
4] These spirits are united with their spirit bodies.

But they are not resurrected.

If you believe the terrestrials and telestials will have a lesser "fulness of joy", you need to 
consider Joseph Smith's teaching that they will suffer immeasurable torment in their mind.

 "The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed".
 
"A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake 
that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the 
mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment 
of man".

"Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and 
some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the 
lake of fire and brimstone".
 

On 4/28/2025 at 11:36 PM, InCognitus said:

  As I have already said several times, the main point of the revelation in section 138 is to answer the question stated in verse 28: “how it was possible for [Jesus] to preach to those spirits [in prison] and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time”?

The answer to that question is given in the revelation, so its purpose is to explain that Jesus organized the righteous individuals to preach the gospel to those in “darkness” (those of the telestial realm), and there is no reason to describe anything that happened to the people of the terrestrial realm.  Section 76 answer that question and explains that Jesus did teach those in the terrestrial realm.

Don't you consider the terrestrials (honorable people who were blinded by the craftiness of men 
and knowingly rejected the Atonement of Christ in mortality) as wicked and being in darkness?
 

On 4/28/2025 at 11:36 PM, InCognitus said:

Those of the terrestrial world will be among those who are on the earth during the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

You mean they will be resurrected at the Second Coming?

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

The LDS Church includes the word "paradise" in the Introduction notes of section 138 and teaches 
that the spirit world includes two parts: spirit prison and spirit paradise. See my larger reply 
to oghossier.

As I said last time, the word "paradise" is not found within section 138 in a way to designate who is in paradise and who is not in paradise.

The headings says "President Smith sees the righteous dead assembled in paradise and Christ's ministry among them".  That's an editorial comment added by those who prepared the section for publication, not part of the revelation.  President Smith saw some of those who are in "paradise" to be sure, but the revelation itself does not define those boundaries. 

Your claim is that Jesus didn't visit those in the terrestrial realm, but section 138 does not say anything that would exclude Jesus from teaching those in the terrestrial realm.  

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Does God view them as wicked and in darkness?

Same answer as the last time you asked the same question:  "Sorry, I’m not their judge, and I certainly won’t pass judgement on groups of people with a broad brush.  That matter is in God’s hands."

5 hours ago, theplains said:

On 4/28/2025 at 9:36 PM, InCognitus said:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33–34 teaches:

“For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;  And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.”

This is referring to the resurrection.  When spirit and body inseparably connected, the individual will “receive a fulness of joy”.  Couple that with Doctrine and Covenants 138:14-17 which is also clearly talking about the resurrection:

I'm familiar with 93:33-34.

My references to achieving the fulness of joy were describing the exalted beings, those who met 
certain conditions

I realize you are trying to equate the fulness of joy in section 138 with exalted beings, but section 138 is clearly using the phrase in the same sense as Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34, since they were spirits separated from their bodies.  A fulness of joy cannot be received without a physical body.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

On 4/28/2025 at 9:36 PM, InCognitus said:

“All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.  I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.  They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.  Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 138:14-17)

This passage is for those in paradise, not spirit prison.

Based on what, the section heading?  And where does it say those in the terrestrial realm are not in paradise?

5 hours ago, theplains said:

The terrestrials and telestials do not 
satisfy the conditions of 138:12-15.  I see it adding some clarity to Doctrine and Covenants 
93:33–34, which you mentioned earlier. 

Where does section 138 put limits on what is "paradise"?  The section only excludes Jesus from teaching the wicked and ungodly and unrepentant individuals who are in "darkness", it doesn't exclude him from teaching those in the terrestrial realm, and Section 76 says Jesus taught those in the terrestrial realm.  

6 hours ago, theplains said:

Regarding the passage you mentioned earlier:

"For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive 
a fulness of joy;  And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy."

This, I take, is your reference to resurrection causing someone to have a fulness of joy.

No, it says a fulness of joy cannot be received without the resurrection.  Its not saying if you are resurrected you will have a fulness of joy, as you are trying to make it say.

6 hours ago, theplains said:

If you believe the terrestrials and telestials will have a lesser "fulness of joy", you need to 
consider Joseph Smith's teaching that they will suffer immeasurable torment in their mind.

 "The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed".

You have a horrible habit of quoting manual commentary as direct quotes from Joseph Smith.  That's not a quote from Joseph Smith.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Don't you consider the terrestrials (honorable people who were blinded by the craftiness of men 
and knowingly rejected the Atonement of Christ in mortality) as wicked and being in darkness?

Where does it say those who inherit in the terrestrial kingdom have rejected the atonement of Christ in mortality?  Section 76 doesn't say that.

It says they are:  "also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it." (76:73-74)

It also says:  "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." (76:79)

There is no rejection of Jesus expressed in any of those verses.  They either never received a testimony of Jesus in the flesh or they had received a testimony of Jesus but were not valiant in their testimony of Jesus.

Doctrine and Covenants section 76 does not describe them as "wicked" or in "darkness".  And certainly, whatever their state it is not enough to exclude them from being in the presence of Jesus in the terrestrial kingdom or during the millennial reign of Christ on the earth (which is paradise), nor are they excluded from Jesus visiting them in section 138.

“These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.” (D&C 76:77)

6 hours ago, theplains said:

On 4/28/2025 at 9:36 PM, InCognitus said:

Those of the terrestrial world will be among those who are on the earth during the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

You mean they will be resurrected at the Second Coming?

The dead of the terrestrial world are resurrected in the latter part of the first resurrection right after the Second Coming of Christ, and participate in the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

[OGHoosier]

@theplains Alright, let's go at it again. 

16 hours ago, theplains said:

1 Peter 3 does not say that Christ commissioned righteous spirits in paradise to eventually go 
into spirit prison to preach to the wicked there. It says Christ went and preached himself.

And my argument is that Peter had a low-res view of the event. So did James Talmage, who published Jesus the Christ three years before Joseph F. Smith had his vision. Joseph Smith, George Q. Cannon, and Brigham Young, who you also quote, fall into that same category. Peter knew that Christ went to preach to the spirits of the dead, assumed that He went to do so in person, the prophets after that adopt the same intuitive understanding, Joseph F. Smith gets clarification and expansion.

16 hours ago, theplains said:

Out of all the spirits in the spirit world, only those in paradise are referred to as being in 
the chains of hell (D&C 138:23).

This is incorrect. The saints in that verse are rejoicing and calling Christ their Savior from the chains of hell. That is not being in the chains of hell, let alone being the only ones in the chains of hell. Again, erroneously interpreting positive statements as exclusive statements.

You fundamentally do not respond to my argument which I stated here, and which @InCognitus has also presented to you: 

Quote

The scripture says that Jesus did not go among "the wicked," "the ungodly and unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh," and "the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets." The nouns here are wicked, ungodly, unrepentant, and rebellious. What does D&C 138 not say? It says nothing about avoiding "prison", and it says nothing about going only to "paradise." This is a big problem for your argument, because your argument hinges entirely on the litigation of who is in paradise and who isn't, and the identification of the host of the just with paradise

You just keep litigating "prison" and "paradise" over and over and, though you cite the above, you don't really respond to the fact that "those who died without law" are not included in the group which Jesus declined to visit. The summaries arranged by Bruce R. McConkie are not part of the revealed text. His interpretation is not synonymous with "LDS Church teachings," though you unfortunately present these as a monolith. 

This interpretive two-step you do is quite frustrating. You fixate on a concept, "paradise", that is at best peripheral to the text, you center it and then quote-mine extensively to establish its conditions without dealing with the fact that the concept of paradise is peripheral to the text!

I suppose I should say that I don't believe the entire world, save 8 souls, perished by water in the first place, so Peter was out over his skis in that description. It's understandable, he was extrapolating from the limited knowledge that he had, but I don't think it's terribly galling that he would be corrected on this. 

16 hours ago, theplains said:

Another group of people could be classified as honorable – those who were devout in their religious 
or atheist/agnostic beliefs, were nice people, but never heard the gospel. They too were blinded 
somehow by the craftiness of men. They are wicked too. Let's call them "group 2".

Why should they be considered so? Your citations do not establish this. 

16 hours ago, theplains said:

I see that Doctrine and Covenants 137 is a picture of those who are taught to have achieved their 
exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God. In another place it's called the celestial kingdom of 
heaven. The word "heirs" of the celestial kingdom of God in verse 7 is linked to D&C 76:50-70 (TG 
Exaltation). These are the gods/priests/kings of the Church of the Firstborn. They come forth in 
the first resurrection.

D&C 76:72 says that those who died without law are in the terrestrial. D&C 137, four years later, corrects this and states that those who died without the gospel but who would have received it are heirs of the Celestial Kingdom. It is incorrect to state that they were originally considered as such at the time of the reception of D&C 76. The footnote on D&C 76:72 links to D&C 137:7-10 - by your own standards they should be considered as connected.

Joseph Smith was interpreting a vision. He received revelation later on that corrected a misunderstanding of his. Continuing revelation works like that. 

I have to ask you, if you choose to respond: state the premises of what you are trying to argue. Your current rhetorical style seems to be going line by line, quote-mining for anything that would seemingly contradict each assertion, and then blasting that out. I cannot tell what it is you are trying to demonstrate or argue. Before dropping another block-quote, please state your thesis.

Edited May 15, 2025 by OGHoosier

[theplains]

On 5/15/2025 at 11:35 AM, OGHoosier said:

Peter knew that Christ went to preach to the spirits of the dead, assumed that He went to do so in person, the prophets after that adopt the same intuitive understanding, Joseph F. Smith gets clarification and expansion.

Who specifically (time frame) are the spirits of the dead referred to in 1 Peter 3:18-20?
 

On 5/15/2025 at 11:35 AM, OGHoosier said:

The saints in that verse are rejoicing and calling Christ their Savior from the chains of hell.

Were they ever in death and the chains of hell in need of redemption so they could be delivered 
from both situations?
 

On 5/15/2025 at 11:35 AM, OGHoosier said:

You just keep litigating "prison" and "paradise" over and over and, though you cite the above, you don't really respond to the fact that "those who died without law" are not included in the group which Jesus declined to visit.

Do you accept the church's teaching that the spirit world is made of paradise and spirit prison?

Verses 20-22 say, "But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant 
who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious 
who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor 
look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace".

Where initially are the honorable men who were deceived by the craftiness of men?  In darkness 
or in peace?

 

On 5/15/2025 at 11:35 AM, OGHoosier said:

I suppose I should say that I don't believe the entire world, save 8 souls, perished by water in the first place, so Peter was out over his skis in that description. It's understandable, he was extrapolating from the limited knowledge that he had, but I don't think it's terribly galling that he would be corrected on this.

The church teaches it was the entire world.

"Noah lived at a time when people thought and did evil continually, and God called him to be a 
preacher of righteousness to that wicked generation. When the people rejected his message, God 
commanded Noah to build an ark, gather animals, and prepare for a flood. Noah and his sons—Shem, 
Ham, and Japheth—and their wives were the only people on the whole earth saved from the flood".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/noah?lang=eng
 

On 5/15/2025 at 11:35 AM, OGHoosier said:

D&C 76:72 says that those who died without law are in the terrestrial. D&C 137, four years later, corrects this and states that those who died without the gospel but who would have received it are heirs of the Celestial Kingdom. It is incorrect to state that they were originally considered as such at the time of the reception of D&C 76.

What about the honorable Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims who heard the gospel and rejected the 
gospel before they died?

Does God view them as wicked or righteous?

[theplains]

On 5/15/2025 at 2:36 AM, InCognitus said:

As I said last time, the word "paradise" is not found within section 138 in a way to designate who is in paradise and who is not in paradise.

The headings says "President Smith sees the righteous dead assembled in paradise and Christ's ministry among them".  That's an editorial comment added by those who prepared the section for publication, not part of the revelation.  President Smith saw some of those who are in "paradise" to be sure, but the revelation itself does not define those boundaries. 

I assume you don't believe all the other church teachings of the spirit world consisting of 
paradise and spirit prison. 

Here are some references I provided to oghossier.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/paradise?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/paradise?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2016/06/what-do-we-know-about-life-after-death?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world-study-guide?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-38?lang=eng
 

On 5/15/2025 at 2:36 AM, InCognitus said:

I realize you are trying to equate the fulness of joy in section 138 with exalted beings, but section 138 is clearly using the phrase in the same sense as Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34, since they were spirits separated from their bodies.  A fulness of joy cannot be received without a physical body.

I also provided church sources outside of sections 93 and 138 but maybe you don't believe those teachings are true.
 

On 5/15/2025 at 2:36 AM, InCognitus said:

Based on what, the section heading?  And where does it say those in the terrestrial realm are not in paradise?

Those initially identified as being in paradise (D&C 138:12-15) do not reflect the attributes of 
the people identified in Doctrine and Covenants 76:74-75 and 138:20-22.

Maybe you believe those in spirit prison can travel to paradise.
 

On 5/15/2025 at 2:36 AM, InCognitus said:

Where does section 138 put limits on what is "paradise"?  The section only excludes Jesus from teaching the wicked and ungodly and unrepentant individuals who are in "darkness", it doesn't exclude him from teaching those in the terrestrial realm, and Section 76 says Jesus taught those in the terrestrial realm. 

Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-16.
 

On 5/15/2025 at 2:36 AM, InCognitus said:

No, it says a fulness of joy cannot be received without the resurrection.  Its not saying if you are resurrected you will have a fulness of joy, as you are trying to make it say.

From my understanding, only resurrected beings who attain to the highest division of the Celestial 
Kingdom will have a fulness of joy.

One of the several church teachings I provided previously was Gospel Principles – "We can be 
exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy".
 

On 5/15/2025 at 2:36 AM, InCognitus said:

You have a horrible habit of quoting manual commentary as direct quotes from Joseph Smith.  That's not a quote from Joseph Smith.

Based on the footnotes provided in Teachings of Joseph Smith, I thought I had it right.

But if Joseph Smith is not the source, is the real source teaching the truth or deceiving people?

Here's how it appears on page 224:

The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed. 

"God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What 
is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands. . . . I know 
that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the 
way marked out by the word of the Lord."12

"The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits,where they go after death, is to 
know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, 
and they are their own accusers."13

"There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their doubt, 
anxiety and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth."14

"A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake 
that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the 
mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment 
of man. . . .

". . . Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, 
and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as 
the lake of fire and brimstone."15

[12.] History of the Church, 4:554–55; paragraph divisions altered; from a discourse given by 
Joseph Smith on Mar. 20, 1842, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff; see also 
appendix, page 562, item 3.

[13.] History of the Church, 5:425; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on June 11, 1843, in 
Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards; see also appendix, page 562, 
item 3.

[14.] History of the Church, 5:340; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 8, 1843, in 
Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Willard Richards and William Clayton.

[15.] History of the Church, 6:314, 317; punctuation modernized; from a discourse given by Joseph 
Smith on Apr. 7, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards, Thomas 
Bullock, and William Clayton.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36481_eng.pdf

On 5/15/2025 at 2:36 AM, InCognitus said:

Where does it say those who inherit in the terrestrial kingdom have rejected the atonement of Christ in mortality?  Section 76 doesn't say that.

It says they are:  "also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it." (76:73-74)

It also says:  "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." (76:79)

There is no rejection of Jesus expressed in any of those verses.  They either never received a testimony of Jesus in the flesh or they had received a testimony of Jesus but were not valiant in their testimony of Jesus.

Doctrine and Covenants section 76 does not describe them as "wicked" or in "darkness".  And certainly, whatever their state it is not enough to exclude them from being in the presence of Jesus in the terrestrial kingdom or during the millennial reign of Christ on the earth (which is paradise), nor are they excluded from Jesus visiting them in section 138.

“These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.” (D&C 76:77)

Doctrine and Covenants 138:20-22 says, "But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly 
and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; 
Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets 
behold his presence, nor look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the 
righteous there was peace".

Does this only apply to telestials?

Were there any honorable people who were ungodly, unrepentant, rebellious, or who rejected the 
testimonies and warnings of the ancient prophets?
 

On 5/15/2025 at 2:36 AM, InCognitus said:

The dead of the terrestrial world are resurrected in the latter part of the first resurrection right after the Second Coming of Christ, and participate in the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath 
no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand 
years" (Revelation 20:6).

[OGHoosier]

@theplains I can't help but notice that you didn't respond to my request to state your thesis. At this point it is very difficult to believe that you are a good-faith interlocutor. You don't seem interested in presenting an actual argument, you seem interested in gotcha moments. 

32 minutes ago, theplains said:

Who specifically (time frame) are the spirits of the dead referred to in 1 Peter 3:18-20?

He refers to the spirits from Noah's time. Your point?

32 minutes ago, theplains said:

Were they ever in death and the chains of hell in need of redemption so they could be delivered 
from both situations?

Without Christ they absolutely would have been, as all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Hence Christ is their Savior from the chains of death and hell. This is basic stuff.  Does this question advance an argument you wish to make?

32 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you accept the church's teaching that the spirit world is made of paradise and spirit prison?

Verses 20-22 say, "But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant 
who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious 
who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor 
look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace".

I do accept the teaching of the existence of spirit paradise and spirit prison, but I reject the idea that the distribution of spirits is bimodal and that one is of necessity righteous or wicked. Further, I find great significance in the teaching that "paradise" and "prison" are states of being. And above all, I find great significance in the idea that the revelation you are disputing does not talk about paradise or prison, but rather righteous and wicked. YOU are the one introducing that conceptual overlay, because you are seemingly inclined to view these states of being as analogous to the Protestant heaven or hell when they really are not. 

32 minutes ago, theplains said:

Where initially are the honorable men who were deceived by the craftiness of men?  In darkness 
or in peace?

Depends, I imagine, on the sincerity of their belief and the contents of their character. If they remain in uncertainty, I would call that prison, but it isn't wickedness - again, Christ only said he wouldn't go to the wicked. 

32 minutes ago, theplains said:

The church teaches it was the entire world.

"Noah lived at a time when people thought and did evil continually, and God called him to be a 
preacher of righteousness to that wicked generation. When the people rejected his message, God 
commanded Noah to build an ark, gather animals, and prepare for a flood. Noah and his sons—Shem, 
Ham, and Japheth—and their wives were the only people on the whole earth saved from the flood".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/noah?lang=eng

The church is also just fine with its members disagreeing with that, as I do. The Gospel Topics manual is not a catechism. Latter-day Saints are defined, as one theologian noted, by our rejection of systematic theology, though our Protestant inheritance means that the desire to systematize pops up every now and again (see: aspects of the ministry of Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie). Your point?

32 minutes ago, theplains said:

What about the honorable Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims who heard the gospel and rejected the 
gospel before they died?

Does God view them as wicked or righteous?

I suspect neither, which is why your whole attempt to impose a paradise-prison schema on Christ's actions in D&C 137 falls apart. Paradise exists, prison exists, seemingly as states of being and probably as distinct places of gathering, but they don't correspond to heaven or hell on the traditional conception. "Righteous" is not shorthand for "paradise" and "wicked" is not shorthand for "prison."

Edited May 20, 2025 by OGHoosier

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

I assume you don't believe all the other church teachings of the spirit world consisting of 
paradise and spirit prison. 

That I point out the fact that Doctrine and Covenants 138 does not define the boundaries of “paradise” and “spirit prison” is no reason to assume that I don’t believe the church teachings on the spirit world. 

And earlier I pointed out that even the righteous individuals in the spirit world considered their state as a prison, to be in bondage (as in 138:50).  So it doesn’t mean that all the people who inherit the telestial kingdom are in prison and those of the celestial kingdom are in paradise.

And I believe that those in the terrestrial realm are considered to be in a state referred to as “prison”, but this is not the same as lumping them all together with those of the telestial realm.

You keep trying to dish this out with a false dichotomy.  It’s not an either/or situation with the judgement.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/15/2025 at 12:36 AM, InCognitus said:

I realize you are trying to equate the fulness of joy in section 138 with exalted beings, but section 138 is clearly using the phrase in the same sense as Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34, since they were spirits separated from their bodies.  A fulness of joy cannot be received without a physical body.

I also provided church sources outside of sections 93 and 138 but maybe you don't believe those teachings are true.

You provided sources that have an entirely different context.

The context of section 138 is that those individuals were in a state where they could not progress and receive a fulness of joy since their spirits were separated from their bodies.  The resurrection of Jesus changed that, and thus created the opportunity for them to progress that they ”might receive a fulness of joy”, it is stated as a future potential:  “Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy” (section 138:17).

The resurrection, in and of itself, is not “causing someone to have a fulness of joy” as you claimed. 

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/15/2025 at 12:36 AM, InCognitus said:

Based on what, the section heading?  And where does it say those in the terrestrial realm are not in paradise?

Those initially identified as being in paradise (D&C 138:12-15) do not reflect the attributes of 
the people identified in Doctrine and Covenants 76:74-75 and 138:20-22.

Maybe you believe those in spirit prison can travel to paradise.

We’ve already been through this.  You are setting up a false dichotomy.  Section 138 focuses on extremes (the righteous and the wicked).  Not mentioning those in the intermediate state does not automatically lump them in with one or the other.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/15/2025 at 12:36 AM, InCognitus said:

Where does section 138 put limits on what is "paradise"?  The section only excludes Jesus from teaching the wicked and ungodly and unrepentant individuals who are in "darkness", it doesn't exclude him from teaching those in the terrestrial realm, and Section 76 says Jesus taught those in the terrestrial realm. 

Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-16.

You are going in a circle, so I’ll just repeat myself too:  There’s no indication in the text of Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-16 of what is paradise and what is not, nor does it define what is “prison” nor does it exclude Jesus from teaching the people in the terrestrial realm.  So this doesn’t answer the question.  Where does section 138 put limits on what is “paradise”?  Where does section 138 exclude Jesus from teaching those in the terrestrial realm?  (It doesn’t).

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/15/2025 at 12:36 AM, InCognitus said:

No, it says a fulness of joy cannot be received without the resurrection.  Its not saying if you are resurrected you will have a fulness of joy, as you are trying to make it say.

From my understanding, only resurrected beings who attain to the highest division of the Celestial 
Kingdom will have a fulness of joy.

One of the several church teachings I provided previously was Gospel Principles – "We can be 
exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy".

I already addressed this above. 

The resurrection, in and of itself, is not “causing someone to have a fulness of joy” as you claimed.  Resurrection is not equal to exaltation (a fulness of joy).  But without the resurrection, a person cannot receive a fulness of joy.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/15/2025 at 12:36 AM, InCognitus said:

You have a horrible habit of quoting manual commentary as direct quotes from Joseph Smith.  That's not a quote from Joseph Smith.

Based on the footnotes provided in Teachings of Joseph Smith, I thought I had it right.

But if Joseph Smith is not the source, is the real source teaching the truth or deceiving people?

Here's how it appears on page 224:

The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed. 

Exactly, the part you bolded above is a topic heading in the manual, it’s not a quote from Joseph Smith as you made it appear in your prior post.  You didn’t say you were quoting from the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith manual last time, you attributed the entire quote to Joseph Smith, including the manual’s topic heading.

It’s the same thing you did with the Gospel Principles manual where you (or Vincent Poldrugovac in the book you were copying and pasting from) made the manual commentary appear to be a quote from what Joseph Smith said.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

Doctrine and Covenants 138:20-22 says, "But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly 
and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; 
Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets 
behold his presence, nor look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the 
righteous there was peace".

Does this only apply to telestials?

Were there any honorable people who were ungodly, unrepentant, rebellious, or who rejected the 
testimonies and warnings of the ancient prophets?

Yes, that part applies only to the people in the telestial realm.

I also noticed that you couldn't find anywhere that it says those who inherit in the terrestrial kingdom have "knowingly rejected the Atonement of Christ in mortality".

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/15/2025 at 12:36 AM, InCognitus said:

The dead of the terrestrial world are resurrected in the latter part of the first resurrection right after the Second Coming of Christ, and participate in the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath 
no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand 
years" (Revelation 20:6).

Yes.  That is what we call the morning of the first resurrection.  Those in the terrestrial realm are resurrected in the latter part of the first resurrection.

Those who come forth in the morning of the first resurrection "are Christ's, the first fruits," and they will have celestial bodies and go to a celestial kingdom.  Then, "those who are Christ's at his coming" will come forth in the first resurrection with terrestrial bodies and go to a terrestrial kingdom.  And after the millennial reign of Christ on the earth those that come forth in the beginning of the second resurrection will have telestial bodies and go to a telestial kingdom, and then finally the sons of perdition will be resurrected.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:96–102 explains that both the celestial and terrestrial individuals are resurrected as part of the first resurrection prior to the millennial reign of Christ.

• Celestial, verses 96-98:  “And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.  And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven— They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.”

• Terrestrial, verse 99: “And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.”

• Telestial, which comes after the millennial reign of Christ on the earth (which describes those in Doctrine and Covenants 138:20-22), verses 100-101:   “And again, another trump shall sound, which is the third trump; and then come the spirits of men who are to be judged, and are found under condemnation;  And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth.”

• Finally, the Sons of Perdition, verse 102: “And another trump shall sound, which is the fourth trump, saying: There are found among those who are to remain until that great and last day, even the end, who shall remain filthy still.”

Notice that verse 99 describes those who come forth in the second part of the first resurrection as “those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh”. 

This correlates exactly with Doctrine and Covenants 76:73-77:

“And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.”

And that’s exactly how Jesus visited those in the terrestrial realm, and those people are not excluded from Jesus teaching them in any of the verses in section 138 (section 76 says "they receive the presence of the Son"), and this is also why Peter taught that Jesus went to preach the gospel to "the spirits in prison".  All these revelations go together.

[theplains]

On 5/20/2025 at 10:54 AM, OGHoosier said:

He refers to the spirits from Noah's time. Your point?

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, 
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, 
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".

My point is that these spirits in prison, whom Jesus visited and preached to, were the wicked of 
Noah's day.

This is shown in Genesis 6:5-7, and repeated in verses 11-13.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of 
the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made 
man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I 
have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the 
fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them".

"The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked 
upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with 
violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth".
 

On 5/20/2025 at 10:54 AM, OGHoosier said:

Without Christ they absolutely would have been, as all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Hence Christ is their Savior from the chains of death and hell. This is basic stuff.  Does this question advance an argument you wish to make?

Why is the reference to the spirits being in chains of hell given about the saints in paradise 
instead of the others (the non-saints) in spirit prison?
 

On 5/20/2025 at 10:54 AM, OGHoosier said:

I do accept the teaching of the existence of spirit paradise and spirit prison, but I reject the idea that the distribution of spirits is bimodal and that one is of necessity righteous or wicked. Further, I find great significance in the teaching that "paradise" and "prison" are states of being. And above all, I find great significance in the idea that the revelation you are disputing does not talk about paradise or prison, but rather righteous and wicked. YOU are the one introducing that conceptual overlay, because you are seemingly inclined to view these states of being as analogous to the Protestant heaven or hell when they really are not. 

From what I have seen of LDS teachings, D&C 138 is used as the basis for a spirit paradise and 
a spirit prison in the all-encompassing spirit world.  I don't see section 138 as a state of 
being but rather as places of gathering where the saints are separated from the non-saints.  
Similarly, the rich man is not in the same place as Lazarus in the parable of Luke 16.
 

On 5/20/2025 at 10:54 AM, OGHoosier said:

I suspect neither, which is why your whole attempt to impose a paradise-prison schema on Christ's actions in D&C 137 falls apart. Paradise exists, prison exists, seemingly as states of being and probably as distinct places of gathering, but they don't correspond to heaven or hell on the traditional conception. "Righteous" is not shorthand for "paradise" and "wicked" is not shorthand for "prison."

Do you see D&C 138 describing a state of being or two general places of gathering for the people 
who have died?

The words "where" in verses 5 and 22 imply locations to me.  Verse 12 gives specific information 
about one of those locations and the people therein.

Edited May 29, 2025 by theplains

[theplains]

On 5/20/2025 at 7:39 PM, InCognitus said:

And earlier I pointed out that even the righteous individuals in the spirit world considered their state as a prison, to be in bondage (as in 138:50).  So it doesn’t mean that all the people who inherit the telestial kingdom are in prison and those of the celestial kingdom are in paradise.

And I believe that those in the terrestrial realm are considered to be in a state referred to as “prison”, but this is not the same as lumping them all together with those of the telestial realm.

Were those who inherited terrestrial glory previously in paradise or spirit prison?
 

On 5/20/2025 at 7:39 PM, InCognitus said:

“Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy” (section 138:17).

I see a difference between "might" receive and "will" receive.

Do you believe all resurrected beings will receive a fulness of joy or is the fulness of joy found 
only within the framework of exaltation?
 

On 5/20/2025 at 7:39 PM, InCognitus said:

There’s no indication in the text of Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-16 of what is paradise and what is not

But do you believe Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-16 describe what type of people were in paradise 
after they had died?
 

On 5/20/2025 at 7:39 PM, InCognitus said:

The resurrection, in and of itself, is not “causing someone to have a fulness of joy” as you claimed.  Resurrection is not equal to exaltation (a fulness of joy).  But without the resurrection, a person cannot receive a fulness of joy.

I agree with you.  Resurrection does not automatically and unconditionally come with a fulness 
of joy.

From how I understand LDS theology, exaltation comes with a fulness of joy; which means the LDS 
Heavenly Father and Mother became Gods – they obtained their fulness of joy too.  That is the 
ultimate purpose of progression as taught in the 1997 Gospel Principles.

"If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received".

"At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. 
However, we also learned that not all of our Father's children would want to receive a fulness of 
joy. Some of us would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose our way".

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we 
would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy".

"We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy".

"Blessings of Exaltation:  They will become gods. They will receive a fulness of joy".
 

On 5/20/2025 at 7:39 PM, InCognitus said:

Exactly, the part you bolded above is a topic heading in the manual, it’s not a quote from Joseph Smith as you made it appear in your prior post.  You didn’t say you were quoting from the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith manual last time, you attributed the entire quote to Joseph Smith, including the manual’s topic heading.

What quotes which I provided from "Teachings of President of the Church: Joseph Smith" do you find 
false and deceptive?

If the church deems the statement "The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of 
the glory they might have enjoyed" and others as misleading or deceptive, why include it in the 
seminary manual?
 

On 5/20/2025 at 7:39 PM, InCognitus said:

Yes, that part applies only to the people in the telestial realm.

I also noticed that you couldn't find anywhere that it says those who inherit in the terrestrial kingdom have "knowingly rejected the Atonement of Christ in mortality".

So what happens to devout and honorable individuals from other faiths (like Hindus, Buddhists, 
and Muslims) who knowingly reject Christ either during their mortal life or (according to some 
beliefs) even after being taught the gospel in the spirit world?

Will they remain in spirit prison until the resurrection with others who will instead inherit a 
telestial glory?
 

On 5/20/2025 at 7:39 PM, InCognitus said:

Those who come forth in the morning of the first resurrection "are Christ's, the first fruits," and they will have celestial bodies and go to a celestial kingdom.  Then, "those who are Christ's at his coming" will come forth in the first resurrection with terrestrial bodies and go to a terrestrial kingdom.  And after the millennial reign of Christ on the earth those that come forth in the beginning of the second resurrection will have telestial bodies and go to a telestial kingdom, and then finally the sons of perdition will be resurrected.

Where do you find in scripture that the first resurrection is split into a morning (for those who 
become gods/priests/kings in the highest division of the celestial kingdom and two other groups 
for the two lower sections) and an afternoon (for the terrestrials)?
 

On 5/20/2025 at 7:39 PM, InCognitus said:

This correlates exactly with Doctrine and Covenants 76:73-77:

“And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.”

Based on Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-15, are the people of 76:73-77 initially in paradise
or in spirit prison with the wicked after they died?  And when did Jesus visit and preach to
them?

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/20/2025 at 5:39 PM, InCognitus said:

And earlier I pointed out that even the righteous individuals in the spirit world considered their state as a prison, to be in bondage (as in 138:50).  So it doesn’t mean that all the people who inherit the telestial kingdom are in prison and those of the celestial kingdom are in paradise.

And I believe that those in the terrestrial realm are considered to be in a state referred to as “prison”, but this is not the same as lumping them all together with those of the telestial realm.

Were those who inherited terrestrial glory previously in paradise or spirit prison?

Are you even reading my posts?  I don't think you are.  See the bolded portion above.

I answered that in my prior post, and it should have been quite clear from what I documented.

I said, “I believe that those in the terrestrial realm are considered to be in a state referred to as ‘prison’, but this is not the same as lumping them all together with those of the telestial realm.”

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/20/2025 at 5:39 PM, InCognitus said:

“Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy” (section 138:17).

I see a difference between "might" receive and "will" receive.

Do you believe all resurrected beings will receive a fulness of joy or is the fulness of joy found 
only within the framework of exaltation?

I already answered that.  The resurrection, in and of itself, is not “causing someone to have a fulness of joy” as you claimed.  Resurrection is not equal to exaltation (a fulness of joy).  But without the resurrection, a person cannot receive a fulness of joy.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/20/2025 at 5:39 PM, InCognitus said:

There’s no indication in the text of Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-16 of what is paradise and what is not

But do you believe Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-16 describe what type of people were in paradise 
after they had died?

Did you not read my prior posts?  I answered this before several times.  This time I'm not reposting it, you'll need to read my posts and find my answer.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/20/2025 at 5:39 PM, InCognitus said:

Exactly, the part you bolded above is a topic heading in the manual, it’s not a quote from Joseph Smith as you made it appear in your prior post.  You didn’t say you were quoting from the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith manual last time, you attributed the entire quote to Joseph Smith, including the manual’s topic heading.

What quotes which I provided from "Teachings of President of the Church: Joseph Smith" do you find 
false and deceptive?

The quotes aren’t false or deceptive, but you trying to represent a topic heading from the manual as a direct quote from Joseph Smith is false or deceptive.  A manual topic heading is not a direct quote from Joseph Smith.

You didn’t provide a source in your original post where you quoted from the manual, and you said: “[C]onsider Joseph Smith's teaching that they will suffer immeasurable torment in their mind. ‘The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed’” (etc. etc.), and that was a topic heading, not a quote from Joseph Smith.

It was how you present the material, not what it says that is the issue.  Had you said (instead), “Consider this quote from the Teachings of the Joseph Smith manual”, it would have been different.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/20/2025 at 5:39 PM, InCognitus said:

Yes, that part applies only to the people in the telestial realm.

I also noticed that you couldn't find anywhere that it says those who inherit in the terrestrial kingdom have "knowingly rejected the Atonement of Christ in mortality".

So what happens to devout and honorable individuals from other faiths (like Hindus, Buddhists, 
and Muslims) who knowingly reject Christ either during their mortal life or (according to some 
beliefs) even after being taught the gospel in the spirit world?

Will they remain in spirit prison until the resurrection with others who will instead inherit a 
telestial glory?

You keep trying to get me to pass judgement on Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims, and I’m not playing that game.  Jesus is their judge, not me.  Only Jesus knows the hearts and minds and circumstances of each and every individual, and Jesus doesn’t judge someone simply based on a label.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/20/2025 at 5:39 PM, InCognitus said:

Those who come forth in the morning of the first resurrection "are Christ's, the first fruits," and they will have celestial bodies and go to a celestial kingdom.  Then, "those who are Christ's at his coming" will come forth in the first resurrection with terrestrial bodies and go to a terrestrial kingdom.  And after the millennial reign of Christ on the earth those that come forth in the beginning of the second resurrection will have telestial bodies and go to a telestial kingdom, and then finally the sons of perdition will be resurrected.

Where do you find in scripture that the first resurrection is split into a morning (for those who 
become gods/priests/kings in the highest division of the celestial kingdom and two other groups 
for the two lower sections) and an afternoon (for the terrestrials)?

Read my last post, I clearly documented from scripture the different resurrections for the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial.  You know this, because you are quoting from that portion of my last post, so why are you asking this question? 

The celestial is on the morning of the first resurrection, and the terrestrial is on the latter part of the first resurrection, both of which are prior to the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.  The telestial kingdom is resurrected after the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.  I provided the scripture that says that in my last post.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/20/2025 at 5:39 PM, InCognitus said:

This correlates exactly with Doctrine and Covenants 76:73-77:

“And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.”

Based on Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-15, are the people of 76:73-77 initially in paradise
or in spirit prison with the wicked after they died?  And when did Jesus visit and preach to
them?

You’re going to make me say it again, obviously.  Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-15 doesn’t say anything about the boundaries of paradise or spirit prison, and in fact all of the inhabitants of the spirit world considered the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. 

And obviously Jesus visited those of the terrestrial realm during the period of time between his death and resurrection, but Jesus didn’t visit those of the telestial realm.

8 hours ago, theplains said:

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, 
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, 
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".

My point is that these spirits in prison, whom Jesus visited and preached to, were the wicked of 
Noah's day.

This is shown in Genesis 6:5-7, and repeated in verses 11-13.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of 
the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made 
man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I 
have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the 
fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them".

"The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked 
upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with 
violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth".

Do you believe the flood of Noah was a worldwide flood? 

Do you believe everyone (man, woman, and child) who lived at the time of Noah heard his warning and rejected his message?  I don’t see how that is possible, do you? 

I asked you this question before and you speculated that Noah may have had over a hundred years to build the ark, but you didn’t really address the question on how it would have been possible for him to contact everyone so that they could have had the opportunity to out right rejected his message. 

Edited May 30, 2025 by InCognitus

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Are you even reading my posts?  I don't think you are.  See the bolded portion above.

I answered that in my prior post, and it should have been quite clear from what I documented.

I said, “I believe that those in the terrestrial realm are considered to be in a state referred to as ‘prison’, but this is not the same as lumping them all together with those of the telestial realm.”

I already answered that.  The resurrection, in and of itself, is not “causing someone to have a fulness of joy” as you claimed.  Resurrection is not equal to exaltation (a fulness of joy).  But without the resurrection, a person cannot receive a fulness of joy.

Did you not read my prior posts?  I answered this before several times.  This time I'm not reposting it, you'll need to read my posts and find my answer.

The quotes aren’t false or deceptive, but you trying to represent a topic heading from the manual as a direct quote from Joseph Smith is false or deceptive.  A manual topic heading is not a direct quote from Joseph Smith.

You didn’t provide a source in your original post where you quoted from the manual, and you said: “[C]onsider Joseph Smith's teaching that they will suffer immeasurable torment in their mind. ‘The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed’” (etc. etc.), and that was a topic heading, not a quote from Joseph Smith.

It was how you present the material, not what it says that is the issue.  Had you said (instead), “Consider this quote from the Teachings of the Joseph Smith manual”, it would have been different.

You keep trying to get me to pass judgement on Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims, and I’m not playing that game.  Jesus is their judge, not me.  Only Jesus knows the hearts and minds and circumstances of each and every individual, and Jesus doesn’t judge someone simply based on a label.

Read my last post, I clearly documented from scripture the different resurrections for the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial.  You know this, because you are quoting from that portion of my last post, so why are you asking this question? 

The celestial is on the morning of the first resurrection, and the terrestrial is on the latter part of the first resurrection, both of which are prior to the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.  The telestial kingdom is resurrected after the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.  I provided the scripture that says that in my last post.

You’re going to make me say it again, obviously.  Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-15 doesn’t say anything about the boundaries of paradise or spirit prison, and in fact all of the inhabitants of the spirit world considered the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. 

And obviously Jesus visited those of the terrestrial realm during the period of time between his death and resurrection, but Jesus didn’t visit those of the telestial realm.

Do you believe the flood of Noah was a worldwide flood? 

Do you believe everyone (man, woman, and child) who lived at the time of Noah heard his warning and rejected his message?  I don’t see how that is possible, do you? 

I asked you this question before and you speculated that Noah may have had over a hundred years to build the ark, but you didn’t really address the question on how it would have been possible for him to contact everyone so that they could have had the opportunity to out right rejected his message. 

I find it interesting how theplains is so insistent in wanting to know every minute detail pertaining to exactly how, according to Latter-Day Saint doctrine, nearly all men and women will ultimately obtain salvation in one of the three post-resurrection heavenly kingdoms glory, while he simultaneously seems to be perfectly comfortable in his belief that his God of supposed perfect love is going to callously condemn the majority of the human race to suffer the unspeakable agonies of an endless hell forever, without any hope for mercy and possible relief. Talk about straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel!

And the fact is that I have ready at my fingertips perfectly reasonable, scripture based answers to many of theplains’ questions, but I refuse to attempt to enlighten him, as you hitherto have so patiently done, because I’m certain he would reject out of hand these perfectly logical and reasonable responses because it would pain him too much to have to admit that the God of the Latter-Day Saints in a much more loving, compassionate and merciful being than is his God — a supposedly perfect being who manifests a puzzling sociopathic indifference to extreme suffering as he meets out a cascade of unimaginably cruel endless punishments upon billions of his own putatively beloved creatures whom he created in his own divine image!

Edited May 30, 2025 by teddyaware

[Okrahomer]

On 5/29/2025 at 10:43 PM, teddyaware said:

while he simultaneously seems to be perfectly comfortable in his belief that his God of supposed perfect love is going to callously condemn the majority of the human race to suffer the unspeakable agonies of an endless hell forever, without any hope for mercy and possible relief.

This sounds somewhat “Calvinistic”.  Is this a fair representation of theplains beliefs?

[InCognitus]

On 5/31/2025 at 1:59 PM, Okrahomer said:

This sounds somewhat “Calvinistic”.  Is this a fair representation of theplains beliefs?

I think he would say, "no", and I certainly would not want to misrepresent his beliefs (so maybe he could answer that).

[theplains]

On 5/29/2025 at 11:19 PM, InCognitus said:

I already answered that.  The resurrection, in and of itself, is not “causing someone to have a fulness of joy” as you claimed.  Resurrection is not equal to exaltation (a fulness of joy).  But without the resurrection, a person cannot receive a fulness of joy.

If I understand you correctly, and with the quotes from Gospel Principles, then Heavenly Mother 
and Father attained their fullness of joy when they became Gods in their exaltation.
 

On 5/29/2025 at 11:19 PM, InCognitus said:

The celestial is on the morning of the first resurrection, and the terrestrial is on the latter part of the first resurrection, both of which are prior to the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.  The telestial kingdom is resurrected after the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.  I provided the scripture that says that in my last post.

Based on Revelation 20:6, are the terrestrials (as you consider them part of the first resurrection) 
priests reigning with Christ for a thousand years?
 

On 5/29/2025 at 11:19 PM, InCognitus said:

Do you believe the flood of Noah was a worldwide flood? 

Do you believe everyone (man, woman, and child) who lived at the time of Noah heard his warning and rejected his message?  I don’t see how that is possible, do you? 

I asked you this question before and you speculated that Noah may have had over a hundred years to build the ark, but you didn’t really address the question on how it would have been possible for him to contact everyone so that they could have had the opportunity to out right rejected his message. 

Yes. It was a worldwide flood.

I don't know if all heard his message and rejected but it is recorded the entire world was corrupted 
and that's why God sent the flood (Genesis 6:5-7, 11-13).

They are the wicked people Christ went and preached to according to 1 Peter 3:19-20.

[InCognitus]

10 hours ago, theplains said:

On 5/29/2025 at 9:19 PM, InCognitus said:

I already answered that.  The resurrection, in and of itself, is not “causing someone to have a fulness of joy” as you claimed.  Resurrection is not equal to exaltation (a fulness of joy).  But without the resurrection, a person cannot receive a fulness of joy.

If I understand you correctly, and with the quotes from Gospel Principles, then Heavenly Mother 
and Father attained their fullness of joy when they became Gods in their exaltation.

The Gospel Principles manual doesn’t say anything about when God received a fulness of joy, it only says God had a fulness of joy, and wanted us to have a fulness of joy too.  But this has nothing to do with this topic.

10 hours ago, theplains said:

Based on Revelation 20:6, are the terrestrials (as you consider them part of the first resurrection) 
priests reigning with Christ for a thousand years?

The book of Revelation is describing the extremes, much like Jesus talking about the sheep and the goats, those on the right hand or the left hand.  It’s a way of describing the full extent of God’s doings.  

The reality is that the “first resurrection” is a continuous process that began with Christ's resurrection and continues up to the beginning of the Millennium.  After the resurrection of Jesus, the gospel of Matthew describes the graves being opened, and “many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many” (Matthew 27:52-53).  Those saints had a part in the first resurrection, among the “first fruits”. 

And as I said in my prior post, those of the celestial kingdom that are resurrected in the morning of the first resurrection are also called the “first fruits” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-98) and are those who are the priests reigning with Christ for a thousand years.  

Those of the latter part of the first resurrection are referred to as “those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:99).  They wouldn’t be included among the “priests” (they are not referred to as "first fruits"), but they do participate in the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

The Bible makes it clear that not everyone that continues into the millennium will be completely righteous, and it even describes sinners who are there:

Isaiah 65:19–25:

• 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
• 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
• 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
• 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
• 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
• 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
• 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

10 hours ago, theplains said:

Yes. It was a worldwide flood.

I don't know if all heard his message and rejected but it is recorded the entire world was corrupted 
and that's why God sent the flood (Genesis 6:5-7, 11-13).

Obviously not everyone in the world could have heard his message and rejected it.  That would be impossible.

And the Bible says (in Genesis 6) that the earth was corrupt, and all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.  That would include those evil men who caused and spread the violence and corruption, but there would also be those (men, women, and children) who would have been blinded by the craftiness of those evil men.

10 hours ago, theplains said:

They are the wicked people Christ went and preached to according to 1 Peter 3:19-20.

No, Peter says they “sometime were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”.  Disobedience is putting things very mildly compared to what is described in Genesis 6.  

Peter also says God was patient with these people that Jesus visited (“the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”), so these were the people living in the period prior to the flood, and not the wicked people that caused God to lose his patience when he brought about the flood. 

Jesus only visited those that God was patient with during that time.

Edited June 3, 2025 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 6/3/2025 at 12:44 AM, InCognitus said:

The Gospel Principles manual doesn’t say anything about when God received a fulness of joy, it only says God had a fulness of joy, and wanted us to have a fulness of joy too.  But this has nothing to do with this topic.

It doesn't say "when" or that he "had" a fulness of joy.  It's more that he "has" and still "has" 
a fulness of joy. At one point of their (Mother and Father's) existence, they did not have it and 
then they received it ("If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly 
parents have received").
 

On 6/3/2025 at 12:44 AM, InCognitus said:

Those of the latter part of the first resurrection are referred to as “those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:99).  They wouldn’t be included among the “priests” (they are not referred to as "first fruits"), but they do participate in the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

Scripture does not indicate that some in the first resurrection do not rule as kings and priests.
 

On 6/3/2025 at 12:44 AM, InCognitus said:

The Bible makes it clear that not everyone that continues into the millennium will be completely righteous, and it even describes sinners who are there:

Isaiah 65:19–25

That's because not all the wicked living at the Second Coming of Christ are killed off.
 

On 6/3/2025 at 12:44 AM, InCognitus said:

No, Peter says they “sometime were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”.  Disobedience is putting things very mildly compared to what is described in Genesis 6.  

Peter also says God was patient with these people that Jesus visited (“the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”), so these were the people living in the period prior to the flood, and not the wicked people that caused God to lose his patience when he brought about the flood. 

Jesus only visited those that God was patient with during that time.

Peter is not referring to good people of Noah's time who died prior to the flood arriving. We 
also don't find any good people being killed off when the door to the Ark is closed and the waters 
being to rise.

"Sometime were disobedient" does not mean "sometimes they were obedient, sometimes they were not". 
"Sometime" is qualifying the time frame when God waited and was longsuffering toward the wicked, 
giving more mercy and time in order to repent.

You are splitting up Peter's message to refer to three groups; where group 1 is the 8 that were 
saved, group 2 is the good people who heard Noah's message, believed and died; and group 3 being 
the wicked people that perished.

The use of the word "disobedient" has no bearing on the severity of one's sinfulness. "All have 
sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The phrase "all have sinned" also has no bearing on 
the severity on one's sinfulness.

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/2/2025 at 10:44 PM, InCognitus said:

Those of the latter part of the first resurrection are referred to as “those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:99).  They wouldn’t be included among the “priests” (they are not referred to as "first fruits"), but they do participate in the millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

Scripture does not indicate that some in the first resurrection do not rule as kings and priests.

When exactly is the “first resurrection” and who is included in the first resurrection according to scripture?  Are those who were resurrected at the time of Christ included in the “first resurrection”, or was that THE “first resurrection” and the one at Christ’s second coming is really the second resurrection?

And why does the apostle Paul teach that there are possibly as many resurrections as there are men, since it is (as he puts it), “every man in his own order”?

1 Corinthians 15:21–24:  “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

That’s exactly like how it is described for the celestial and terrestrial individuals in Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-99:

“96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. 97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—  98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.  99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 88:96–99)

6 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/2/2025 at 10:44 PM, InCognitus said:

The Bible makes it clear that not everyone that continues into the millennium will be completely righteous, and it even describes sinners who are there:

Isaiah 65:19–25

That's because not all the wicked living at the Second Coming of Christ are killed off.

All the “wicked” are not killed off?  Really?

My Bible says differently: 

Isaiah 13:9: “Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”

Malachi 3:2  “But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap”.

Malachi 4:1  “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”

6 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/2/2025 at 10:44 PM, InCognitus said:

No, Peter says they “sometime were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”.  Disobedience is putting things very mildly compared to what is described in Genesis 6.  

Peter also says God was patient with these people that Jesus visited (“the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”), so these were the people living in the period prior to the flood, and not the wicked people that caused God to lose his patience when he brought about the flood. 

Jesus only visited those that God was patient with during that time.

Peter is not referring to good people of Noah's time who died prior to the flood arriving. We 
also don't find any good people being killed off when the door to the Ark is closed and the waters 
being to rise.

"Sometime were disobedient" does not mean "sometimes they were obedient, sometimes they were not". 
"Sometime" is qualifying the time frame when God waited and was longsuffering toward the wicked, 
giving more mercy and time in order to repent.

Why are you focusing on the word “sometime”?  I didn’t.  And why are you saying they were “good people”?  I didn’t.  I smell a straw man here.

My point was that Peter said they were “disobedient”, which is not the same as the violence and corruption described among “all flesh” in Genesis 6 which is the reason that God caused the flood. 

6 hours ago, theplains said:

You are splitting up Peter's message to refer to three groups; where group 1 is the 8 that were 
saved, group 2 is the good people who heard Noah's message, believed and died; and group 3 being 
the wicked people that perished.

The use of the word "disobedient" has no bearing on the severity of one's sinfulness. "All have 
sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The phrase "all have sinned" also has no bearing on 
the severity on one's sinfulness.

I never said anything about "good people who heard Noah's message, believed and died".  You did.  I said they were "disobedient". 

And, “all have sinned”, even Noah and the other seven.  They were disobedient at some point in their lives. But do you really think disobedience when compared to corruption and violence has nothing to do with the severity of their sins?

Apparently, you agree that Noah could not have possibly been able to preach his message to every man, woman, and child upon the earth.  So, what about those who died without the law?  What about those men, women, and children who were blinded by the craftiness of the corrupt and violent leaders?  Do you think that has any bearing on the severity of their sinfulness? 

Do you view God’s judgments as binary only (you either made it or you didn’t), or do you see that sins have varying degree of severity for which there are greater or lesser punishments?

[teddyaware]

9 hours ago, InCognitus said:

When exactly is the “first resurrection” and who is included in the first resurrection according to scripture?  Are those who were resurrected at the time of Christ included in the “first resurrection”, or was that THE “first resurrection” and the one at Christ’s second coming is really the second resurrection?

And why does the apostle Paul teach that there are possibly as many resurrections as there are men, since it is (as he puts it), “every man in his own order”?

1 Corinthians 15:21–24:  “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

That’s exactly like how it is described for the celestial and terrestrial individuals in Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-99:

“96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. 97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—  98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.  99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 88:96–99)

All the “wicked” are not killed off?  Really?

My Bible says differently: 

Isaiah 13:9: “Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”

Malachi 3:2  “But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap”.

Malachi 4:1  “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”

Why are you focusing on the word “sometime”?  I didn’t.  And why are you saying they were “good people”?  I didn’t.  I smell a straw man here.

My point was that Peter said they were “disobedient”, which is not the same as the violence and corruption described among “all flesh” in Genesis 6 which is the reason that God caused the flood. 

I never said anything about "good people who heard Noah's message, believed and died".  You did.  I said they were "disobedient". 

And, “all have sinned”, even Noah and the other seven.  They were disobedient at some point in their lives. But do you really think disobedience when compared to corruption and violence has nothing to do with the severity of their sins?

Apparently, you agree that Noah could not have possibly been able to preach his message to every man, woman, and child upon the earth.  So, what about those who died without the law?  What about those men, women, and children who were blinded by the craftiness of the corrupt and violent leaders?  Do you think that has any bearing on the severity of their sinfulness? 

Do you view God’s judgments as binary only (you either made it or you didn’t), or do you see that sins have varying degree of severity for which there are greater or lesser punishments?

Ultimately there are two sins only that will prevent an individual from obtaining at least a Telestial inheritance in the heavenly kingdoms of post-resurrection glory, and they are: 1) the refusal to exercise living faith in Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Redeemer, and 2) the refusal to sincerely repent of one’s sins while having a sure knowledge that God lives and that his arms of mercy are being extended to you.

The reason why the sons of perdition are consigned to outer darkness is because they refuse accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and steadfastly refuse to repent of their sins, thus making themselves his implacable, unforgiven enemies. With the exception of these two ultimate sins, every other sin can be remitted through authentic faith in Jesus Christ. Even murderers can ultimately be forgiven, although the process to obtain that forgiveness, and a resurrection to an inheritance in the Telestial heaven is very difficult. The following testimony of Alma makes these two verities very clear.

6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable ; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness ; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness. (Alma 39)

 

[theplains]

On 6/10/2025 at 1:01 AM, InCognitus said:

When exactly is the “first resurrection” and who is included in the first resurrection according to scripture?  Are those who were resurrected at the time of Christ included in the “first resurrection”, or was that THE “first resurrection” and the one at Christ’s second coming is really the second resurrection?

There were several resurrections (a raising of the dead) before Christ's crucifixion and his 
eventual resurrection.  But apart from Christ, I don't believe they were raised to immortality.  
So in that sense, I would consider the first resurrection as being a future event (1 Thessalonians 
4:15-17).
 

On 6/10/2025 at 1:01 AM, InCognitus said:

And why does the apostle Paul teach that there are possibly as many resurrections as there are men, since it is (as he puts it), “every man in his own order”?

1 Corinthians 15:21–24:  “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

5 people being resurrected means five individual resurrections.  They are not in the order of 
Christ's resurrection millennia ago (being the firstfruit). The faithful dead would come forth 
in their order; which would precede the order of the faithful living at the Second Coming.

I am not sure if they all happen at the same time or whether milliseconds, seconds, minutes, or 
hours separate each individual resurrection for all the millions mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Another way to look at "order" is degrees of rewards, levels of blessedness, or orders of magnitude 
(like earthquakes are measured) instead of a priority of order.
 

On 6/10/2025 at 1:01 AM, InCognitus said:

That’s exactly like how it is described for the celestial and terrestrial individuals in Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-99:

“96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. 97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—  98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.  99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 88:96–99)

Maybe due to the wording, Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-97 gives the impression of a different 
order. According to the Bible, the dead in Christ are raised first, and then the living in Christ 
who are alive at the Second Coming are raised up next.

In James 1:18, believers are described as a kind of "firstfruits" of God's creatures, indicating 
that they are among the first to experience the new life and transformation that comes through 
the gospel.  They are not the "firstfruits" of a resurrection event.

The idea of firstfruits not being associated with resurrection is alluded to again in Revelation 
14:4, speaking of the 144,000 Israelites ("These are they which were not defiled with women; for 
they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed 
from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb").

I don't see the celestials as firstfruits and the terrestrials as secondfruits coming forth in 
the first resurrection or terrestrials and celestials (of the two lower divisions) matching the 
description set forth in Revelation 20:6.
 

On 6/10/2025 at 1:01 AM, InCognitus said:

All the “wicked” are not killed off?  Really?

My Bible says differently: 

Regarding my comment "That's because not all the wicked living at the Second Coming of Christ are 
killed off".

I should have clarified.  I meant all the wicked that war against Christ at the Second Coming (the 
event specifically described in Revelation 19:19).

But you are correct. All the wicked do eventually get destroyed somehow and sometime after the 
Second Coming.
 

On 6/10/2025 at 1:01 AM, InCognitus said:

My point was that Peter said they were “disobedient”, which is not the same as the violence and corruption described among “all flesh” in Genesis 6 which is the reason that God caused the flood.

Let me briefly compare the disobedient whom God swept away in the flood with another group. I don't 
see a significant difference between those Israelites who were disobedient and perished in the 
wilderness exodus out of Egypt versus those corrupt Israelites who were also destroyed after 
entering the promised land.

1 Peter 3:19-20 says, "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime 
were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was 
a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".

In this context, who are these unsaved disobedient people in Noah's day to whom Jesus went and 
preached to in spirit prison?
 

On 6/10/2025 at 1:01 AM, InCognitus said:

But do you really think disobedience when compared to corruption and violence has nothing to do with the severity of their sins?

The severity of their sins resulted in the same outcome: they perished.
 

On 6/10/2025 at 1:01 AM, InCognitus said:

Apparently, you agree that Noah could not have possibly been able to preach his message to every man, woman, and child upon the earth.  So, what about those who died without the law?  What about those men, women, and children who were blinded by the craftiness of the corrupt and violent leaders?  Do you think that has any bearing on the severity of their sinfulness?

Romans 2:14-15 highlights how Gentiles, even without the law, can act according to the principles 
of the law because it's written in their hearts.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, 
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in 
their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing 
or else excusing one another".

As for those blinded by the craftiness of men - they suffer the consequences too, but it is more 
severe on the false teachers who led them astray.  Their outcome is the same: they are not saved. 
That's why it's dangerous for leaders and their followers to worship a different God. I don't 
believe they will have an opportunity to say we had the Bible but we didn't know God is God from 
eternity past to eternity future.
 

On 6/10/2025 at 1:01 AM, InCognitus said:

Do you view God’s judgments as binary only (you either made it or you didn’t), or do you see that sins have varying degree of severity for which there are greater or lesser punishments?

I think there are varying degrees of suffering for those who don't inherit the kingdom of God.

[Stargazer]

Placeholder for popping the topic above the spam

[Calm]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

There were several resurrections (a raising of the dead)

Nvm….I need to put some major practice into patience these days

Edited June 18, 2025 by Calm

[Stargazer]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Nvm….I need to put some major practice into patience these days

Don't we all...  

[InCognitus]

10 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/9/2025 at 11:01 PM, InCognitus said:

When exactly is the “first resurrection” and who is included in the first resurrection according to scripture?  Are those who were resurrected at the time of Christ included in the “first resurrection”, or was that THE “first resurrection” and the one at Christ’s second coming is really the second resurrection?

There were several resurrections (a raising of the dead) before Christ's crucifixion and his 
eventual resurrection.  But apart from Christ, I don't believe they were raised to immortality.  
So in that sense, I would consider the first resurrection as being a future event (1 Thessalonians 
4:15-17).

“Raising of the dead” is not the same as resurrection as you well know.

And you didn’t consider what I posted about Matthew 27:52-53 in my post on 06/02.  Matthew 27:50–53 records the following:

“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

And this was in fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19: 

“Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.”

Those saints which slept and arose were resurrected after Christ’s resurrection and they were raised to immortality as a witness to the power of Christ’s resurrection.

Where does the resurrection of those saints fit into your resurrection timetable?

10 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/9/2025 at 11:01 PM, InCognitus said:

And why does the apostle Paul teach that there are possibly as many resurrections as there are men, since it is (as he puts it), “every man in his own order”?

1 Corinthians 15:21–24:  “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

5 people being resurrected means five individual resurrections.  They are not in the order of 
Christ's resurrection millennia ago (being the firstfruit). The faithful dead would come forth 
in their order; which would precede the order of the faithful living at the Second Coming.

I am not sure if they all happen at the same time or whether milliseconds, seconds, minutes, or 
hours separate each individual resurrection for all the millions mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Another way to look at "order" is degrees of rewards, levels of blessedness, or orders of magnitude 
(like earthquakes are measured) instead of a priority of order.

As was shown from Matthew 27:50–53 (that you did not address) and Isaiah 26:19, there is more to the “every man in his own order” statement than what you seem to recognize.  The Greek word translated as “order” in the King James version of 1 Corinthians 26:34 is tágmati, and it means “rank”, or “class”.

Thayer’s Lexicon defines the word this way:

Note that it says “1 Co. XV. 23, where Paul specifies several distinct bands or classes of those raised from the dead”.  So what you say above is incorrect.

10 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/9/2025 at 11:01 PM, InCognitus said:

That’s exactly like how it is described for the celestial and terrestrial individuals in Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-99:

“96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. 97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—  98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.  99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.”  (Doctrine and Covenants 88:96–99)

Maybe due to the wording, Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-97 gives the impression of a different 
order. According to the Bible, the dead in Christ are raised first, and then the living in Christ 
who are alive at the Second Coming are raised up next.

It’s not just the Doctrine and Covenants that gives the impression of the “order”, as noted above, “Paul specifies several distinct bands or classes of those raised from the dead”.

10 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/9/2025 at 11:01 PM, InCognitus said:

All the “wicked” are not killed off?  Really?

My Bible says differently: 

Regarding my comment "That's because not all the wicked living at the Second Coming of Christ are 
killed off".

I should have clarified.  I meant all the wicked that war against Christ at the Second Coming (the 
event specifically described in Revelation 19:19).

But you are correct. All the wicked do eventually get destroyed somehow and sometime after the 
Second Coming.

But it is at the time of his second coming that the wicked are destroyed from the earth, not sometime after.

2 Thessalonians 1:7–9:  “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power”.

10 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/9/2025 at 11:01 PM, InCognitus said:

My point was that Peter said they were “disobedient”, which is not the same as the violence and corruption described among “all flesh” in Genesis 6 which is the reason that God caused the flood.

Let me briefly compare the disobedient whom God swept away in the flood with another group. I don't 
see a significant difference between those Israelites who were disobedient and perished in the 
wilderness exodus out of Egypt versus those corrupt Israelites who were also destroyed after 
entering the promised land.

A teenage child who doesn’t come home by his or her designated curfew is “disobedient”. A person who joins a gang and makes a pact to murder and steal is “violent” and “corrupt”.  And you don’t see the degree of difference?

10 hours ago, theplains said:

1 Peter 3:19-20 says, "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime 
were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was 
a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".

In this context, who are these unsaved disobedient people in Noah's day to whom Jesus went and 
preached to in spirit prison?

This has been answered several times in this thread already.  Go reread the thread, and specifically the end of my post on 05/20/2025.

10 hours ago, theplains said:

On 6/9/2025 at 11:01 PM, InCognitus said:

But do you really think disobedience when compared to corruption and violence has nothing to do with the severity of their sins?

The severity of their sins resulted in the same outcome: they perished.

We all perish, for all have sinned and all will die. 

But we are all judged individually according to our deeds (Romans 2:5-11, 2 Corinthians 5:9-10, Galatians 6:7-9). 

That’s exactly why those who are only “disobedient” are treated differently than the violent and corrupt individuals when the gospel is preached to those who have died.  “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”  (1 Peter 4:6)

10 hours ago, theplains said:

Romans 2:14-15 highlights how Gentiles, even without the law, can act according to the principles 
of the law because it's written in their hearts.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, 
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in 
their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing 
or else excusing one another".

As for those blinded by the craftiness of men - they suffer the consequences too, but it is more 
severe on the false teachers who led them astray.  Their outcome is the same: they are not saved. 
That's why it's dangerous for leaders and their followers to worship a different God. I don't 
believe they will have an opportunity to say we had the Bible but we didn't know God is God from 
eternity past to eternity future.

So according to your own reasoning above, the people who lived at the time of Noah would have varying degrees of sinfulness, and the judgement against their false teachers would be greater than those who were led astray by them.

The truth is, those who know the Lord’s will and do not do according to his will receive a greater punishment than those who do not know the Lord’s will.  (Luke 12:47-48).

Edited June 19, 2025 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 6/19/2025 at 1:48 AM, InCognitus said:

“Raising of the dead” is not the same as resurrection as you well know.

And you didn’t consider what I posted about Matthew 27:52-53 in my post on 06/02.  Matthew 27:50–53 records the following:

“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

And this was in fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19: 

“Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.”

Those saints which slept and arose were resurrected after Christ’s resurrection and they were raised to immortality as a witness to the power of Christ’s resurrection.

Where does the resurrection of those saints fit into your resurrection timetable?

I don't understand your question about my aspect of timeline.  

They were resurrected after Christ's resurrection but I cannot say for sure they were raised 
immortal, never to die again.  Lazarus was raised (resurrected) but he died later too. That was 
my premise.

I consider the "first resurrection" as more on a greater magnitude.  Similarly, Ezekiel 37:1-14 
speaks of a greater magnitude of the Israelites gathering to their land.

Isaiah 26 must be taken in the context of the chapters before and after it.  It does not specifically 
address the events surrounding Christ's resurrection around 33 A.D.
 

On 6/19/2025 at 1:48 AM, InCognitus said:

Note that it says “1 Co. XV. 23, where Paul specifies several distinct bands or classes of those raised from the dead”.  So what you say above is incorrect.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own 
order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming".

Who are those which classify "they they are Christ's" ? 
 

On 6/19/2025 at 1:48 AM, InCognitus said:

It’s not just the Doctrine and Covenants that gives the impression of the “order”, as noted above, “Paul specifies several distinct bands or classes of those raised from the dead”.

By "order" in Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-97, I meant sequence of events - it says the living in 
Christ are raised first, then the dead in Christ are raised nextr.  This is opposite to what the 
Bible says.

Regarding the phrase "then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ's at his coming".

Who are these redeemed ones?
 

On 6/19/2025 at 1:48 AM, InCognitus said:

2 Thessalonians 1:7–9:  “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power”.

How do you understand this part of verses 7-8?

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be 
taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with 
the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming".
 

On 6/19/2025 at 1:48 AM, InCognitus said:

A teenage child who doesn’t come home by his or her designated curfew is “disobedient”. A person who joins a gang and makes a pact to murder and steal is “violent” and “corrupt”.  And you don’t see the degree of difference?

Yes. There are degrees of disobedience.  Adam and Eve's disobedience in the Garden of Eden had a 
greater impact on mankind than a person who joins a gang to murder and steal.
 

On 6/19/2025 at 1:48 AM, InCognitus said:

We all perish, for all have sinned and all will die. 

By perish, I meant John 3:14-15 ("And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so 
must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have 
eternal life").

By eternal life, I don't mean living life as a God.
 

On 6/19/2025 at 1:48 AM, InCognitus said:

So according to your own reasoning above, the people who lived at the time of Noah would have varying degrees of sinfulness, and the judgement against their false teachers would be greater than those who were led astray by them.

Varying degrees of sinfulness still put them into one category ("The earth also was corrupt before 
God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was 
corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of 
all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I 
will destroy them with the earth" - Genesis 6:11-13).

This is the group of people described in 1 Peter 3:18-19. Only eight were saved from the flood.
 

On 6/19/2025 at 1:48 AM, InCognitus said:

The truth is, those who know the Lord’s will and do not do according to his will receive a greater punishment than those who do not know the Lord’s will.  (Luke 12:47-48).

This is a fearful consideration for all professing Christians.

[InCognitus]

On 6/24/2025 at 9:13 AM, theplains said:

On 6/18/2025 at 11:48 PM, InCognitus said:

“Raising of the dead” is not the same as resurrection as you well know.

And you didn’t consider what I posted about Matthew 27:52-53 in my post on 06/02.  Matthew 27:50–53 records the following:

“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

And this was in fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19: 

“Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.”

Those saints which slept and arose were resurrected after Christ’s resurrection and they were raised to immortality as a witness to the power of Christ’s resurrection.

Where does the resurrection of those saints fit into your resurrection timetable?

I don't understand your question about my aspect of timeline.  

They were resurrected after Christ's resurrection but I cannot say for sure they were raised 
immortal, never to die again.  Lazarus was raised (resurrected) but he died later too. That was 
my premise.

I consider the "first resurrection" as more on a greater magnitude.  Similarly, Ezekiel 37:1-14 
speaks of a greater magnitude of the Israelites gathering to their land.

I’ve heard this interpretation of Matthew 27:50-53 many times before (mostly from Jehovah’s Witnesses, but also from others who deny the physical resurrection to immortality), where they say the earthquake caused the graves to be opened at the time of Christ’s death, and then the bodies of the saints rose up back to life and came out of their graves after Christ’s resurrection and showed themselves unto many people in the city, but it was only a Lazarus type of being raised back to life and they died again and not an actual resurrection of the same type that Christ underwent.  But I’ve never understood how that interpretation makes any sense given the circumstances.  

What would be the point (from God’s point of view) of having those people being raised from the dead and go to show themselves to people in the city, but then die again later?  Is it the point that Christ has power to raise the dead like he did with Lazarus?  But we already knew that, he did that while he was alive.  Or is it more likely that since Christ had literally died himself and rose up from the dead into immortality, to show that he has power to raise people from the dead into immortality and eternal life?  I just don’t see any reason for Matthew to mention those events in connection with Christ’s resurrection unless it was intended to be a testament to the power that Christ has to raise us all from the dead into immortality.

Please explain how it makes any sense from your point of view. 

As for the “first resurrection” having an even greater magnitude, what could be of a greater magnitude than having the first resurrection begin right after the point in time that Christ was resurrected and continue until his second coming?

On 6/24/2025 at 9:13 AM, theplains said:

On 6/18/2025 at 11:48 PM, InCognitus said:

Note that it says “1 Co. XV. 23, where Paul specifies several distinct bands or classes of those raised from the dead”.  So what you say above is incorrect.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own 
order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming".

Who are those which classify "they they are Christ's" ? 

All those in the first resurrection are Christ’s, but every man is resurrected according to their “several distinct bands or classes” (according to Thayer’s lexicon definition) as Paul stated in 1 Cor 15:23.

The “firstfruits” indicate the beginning of the harvest, and they are the faithful saints gathered out from the earth starting from the time right after Christ’s resurrection (as indicated in Matthew 27:50–53) up unto the second coming of Christ in the morning of the first resurrection. 

“They that are Christ’s” are all the others who have received Christ but either weren’t valiant in their testimony of the Savior during their lifetime or otherwise received Christ after being taught about him in the spirit world. 

On 6/24/2025 at 9:13 AM, theplains said:

On 6/18/2025 at 11:48 PM, InCognitus said:

It’s not just the Doctrine and Covenants that gives the impression of the “order”, as noted above, “Paul specifies several distinct bands or classes of those raised from the dead”.

By "order" in Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-97, I meant sequence of events - it says the living in 
Christ are raised first, then the dead in Christ are raised nextr.  This is opposite to what the 
Bible says.

The wording in the Doctrine and Covenants doesn’t directly depict the order.  In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Paul uses the word “first” which does depict an order.  But in Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-97, it says “And…. And….”, which simply identifies events that happen without explaining the order.

This is no different than in the gospels, where Jesus says in Matthew 24:11-12, “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”  Will you criticize Jesus if false prophets happen to show up after iniquity abounds and the love of many waxes cold?

On 6/24/2025 at 9:13 AM, theplains said:

Regarding the phrase "then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ's at his coming".

Who are these redeemed ones?

Why do you keep asking questions that have already been answered?  See the end of my post on 05/20/2025, where I addressed this very question quite clearly.

On 6/24/2025 at 9:13 AM, theplains said:

On 6/18/2025 at 11:48 PM, InCognitus said:

2 Thessalonians 1:7–9:  “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power”.

How do you understand this part of verses 7-8?

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be 
taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with 
the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming".

You’re changing the subject by looking in the wrong chapter.  I quoted from 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, you are quoting from 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. 

I thought I was quite clear in explaining how I understand verses 7-9 of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 in my post in the other message thread (see my post on 03/29/2025 and on 05/26/2025 to see my explanation of what Paul is saying about Satan being already at work in Paul’s day and how Satan’s work would continue until Christ returns and Satan’s work will be destroyed at Christ’s coming).

I’ll respond to what you ask above when I get around to replying to your post in the other thread in a couple of weeks when I return from my next trip.

On 6/24/2025 at 9:13 AM, theplains said:

Yes. There are degrees of disobedience.  Adam and Eve's disobedience in the Garden of Eden had a 
greater impact on mankind than a person who joins a gang to murder and steal.

The transgression of Adam and Eve was done in innocence without them having a knowledge of good and evil, and even though their transgression had a great impact on mankind, it was obviously not so terrible that God wiped out the earth and started over like he did with Noah and the flood.  Furthermore, their transgression in the Garden of Eden brought about the need for a Savior, which God had foreseen and planned for from before the foundations of the world (1 Timothy 1:9, 1 Peter 1:19-20, Revelation 13:8).

Since God didn’t wipe out the earth and start over after the fall of Adam, it seems obvious to me that the violence and corruption (murdering and stealing) among mankind at the time of Noah was considered a far greater sin in God’s eyes.  So in recognition of the degrees of disobedience, the murdering and stealing is obviously a far greater sin than that of Adam and Eve’s. 

On 6/24/2025 at 9:13 AM, theplains said:

On 6/18/2025 at 11:48 PM, InCognitus said:

So according to your own reasoning above, the people who lived at the time of Noah would have varying degrees of sinfulness, and the judgement against their false teachers would be greater than those who were led astray by them.

Varying degrees of sinfulness still put them into one category ("The earth also was corrupt before 
God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was 
corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of 
all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I 
will destroy them with the earth" - Genesis 6:11-13).

This is the group of people described in 1 Peter 3:18-19. Only eight were saved from the flood.

They are put into one category in the sense that they all perished in the flood, but not in one category with respect to their judgement, as there were people in both the telestial and terrestrial realm in that group. 

On 6/24/2025 at 9:13 AM, theplains said:

On 6/18/2025 at 11:48 PM, InCognitus said:

The truth is, those who know the Lord’s will and do not do according to his will receive a greater punishment than those who do not know the Lord’s will.  (Luke 12:47-48).

This is a fearful consideration for all professing Christians.

Yes, and thus the very reason there is a terrestrial kingdom that is different than the telestial kingdom.