Overthrowing the church of God

[telnetd]

Mosiah 27:13 says "Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, 
for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, 
and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression 
of my people" 
  
If the gates of hell would not prevail against Christ's church, how could the
transgression of people overthrow it?

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 27:13 says "Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, 
for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, 
and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression 
of my people" 
  
If the gates of hell would not prevail against Christ's church, how could the
transgression of people overthrow it?

Well, you finally got us. Where do I send my resignation letter?

😐

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 27:13 says "Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, 
for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, 
and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression 
of my people" 
  
If the gates of hell would not prevail against Christ's church, how could the
transgression of people overthrow it?

The Nephite Church of Christ on earth was indeed eventually overthrown as a consequence of the transgressions of its members who utterly turned away from God in total rebellion. There’s nothing new in the theme of recurring apostasies of God’s people who end up ripening in iniquity and utterly turning away from truth, thus necessitating the opening of new gospel dispensations of truth that are sent to the earth from heaven by heavenly messengers who are divinely commissioned to reestablish God’s holy truth and priesthood authority on the earth.

Meanwhile the fact of the matter is that in actuality the Nephite Church of Christ wasn’t totally overthrown because three Nephite Melchizedek priesthood holding apostles of Christ were chosen by God to remain on the earth, and by this means the Nephite Church of Christ wasn’t totally obliterated from off the face of the earth. As I write, the Nephite Church of Christ continues, with three ordained living representatives who are currently walking the earth, thus maintaining an unbroken connection between the Nephite Church of Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The Nephite Church of Christ, complete with its divinely invested priesthood authority, also remains intact in the spirit world where its dynamic and inspired work of salvation continues unabated.

And it’s important to appreciate the fact that the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood by John the Baptist and the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood by Peter, James and John in this dispensation clearly demonstrate that the Church established by Christ in Israel also wasn’t completely extinguished from off the face of the earth. And like the three Nephites disciples who tarried, John also never died but even now remains in mortality.

The ultimate complete victory of Christ’s Church of the Firstborn is inevitable. it will never be overthrown and will continue to exist intact throughout all eternity.

The bottom line? Just because there are apostasies that constitute temporary setbacks for the Church of Christ on this fallen world doesn’t mean that the Church of Christ on earth, the Church of Christ the spirit world and the Church of Christin heaven will ever be overthrown or thwarted in any way from the attainment of complete and ultimate victory. The Lord knows what he’s doing and is infinitely and eternally up to the task of bringing to naught the designs of the forces of darkness, now and throughout all eternity.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2025 by teddyaware

[JVW]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 27:13 says "Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, 
for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, 
and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression 
of my people" 
  
If the gates of hell would not prevail against Christ's church, how could the
transgression of people overthrow it?

I think this is a good question. My initial thought is to rephrase it like "the choices of the devil and his angels can't overthrow it, but the choices of the saints can." ...? Maybe? I've never thought about this question before.

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 27:13 says "Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, 
for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, 
and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression 
of my people" 
  
If the gates of hell would not prevail against Christ's church, how could the
transgression of people overthrow it?

Of course we've never discussed anything like this before, right?   

See Ensign, August 1993, "What did Jesus mean when he said to Peter, as recorded in Matthew 16:18, that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against [my church]”?"

Quote

 

Matthew 16:18–19 does not relate to the continuity of the relationship between Christ and his church organization in time. Instead, the passage refers to the protective and saving bond between Christ and repentant sinners—his sons and daughters—now and throughout eternity. [Matt 16:18–19] (See Mosiah 27:24–29; D&C 138:23.)

The phrase “gates of hell” refers to the place of restriction for the unjust dead. The barrier that separates them from the paradise of the dead is the justice of God. This idea is expressed in the Savior’s parable of the beggar Lazarus. The parable teaches, among other things, that communication between paradise and hell, or spirit prison, is restricted because there is “a great gulf fixed” between the two places. (See Luke 16:19–26.) Lehi and Nephi witnessed a very similar “gulf” in their visions of the tree of life. (See 1 Ne. 8:26; 1 Ne. 15:28–34.) Nephi described it as “a representation of that awful hell. … The justice of God did … divide the wicked from the righteous.” (1 Ne. 15:29–30.)

Jesus’ atonement bridged the gulf and breached the “gates” so that the repentant in prison could be liberated through the vicarious ordinances. The gates of hell could not prevail against them.

 

So the "gates of hell" passage has nothing to do with whether the church could ever be overthrown in any given place or time, or that it could never fall into apostasy (even the house of Israel went in and out of apostasy many times). 

God doesn't control us to prevent us from falling into transgression.  But he can send prophets of God to reveal his teachings and restore his church when the circumstances are appropriate for doing that.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 27:13 says "Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, 
for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, 
and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression 
of my people" 
  
If the gates of hell would not prevail against Christ's church, how could the
transgression of people overthrow it?

Gates are static defenses and cannot be used on offense to overthrow anything. Lots of sins are much more offensive and thus can pull off an attack.

Glad I could help.

Edited March 18, 2025 by The Nehor

[CV75]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 27:13 says "Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, 
for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, 
and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression 
of my people" 
  
If the gates of hell would not prevail against Christ's church, how could the
transgression of people overthrow it?

The gates of hell (mortality and the fallen condition) and the transgression (apostasy) of mortal and fallen members of Christ’s Church are two different things. Christ overcame the gates of hell, and by so doing, permanently established His Church in heaven and liberated the agency of mortal and fallen people, who can, en masse and if sufficient, reject Him enough to overthrow His Church on the earth (apostasy). We believe that the particulars surrounding the current restoration after the last time this happened prevents a universal overthrow by the great and abominable church from happening again. 

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 27:13 says "Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, 
for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, 
and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression 
of my people" 
  
If the gates of hell would not prevail against Christ's church, how could the
transgression of people overthrow it?

Now some questions for you....

Given that the word "hell" in Matthew 16:18 is translated from the Greek word hades, which is defined as "the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell", what do you suppose that Jesus had in mind when he said that the "gates of hades" (the grave, the place of departed souls) would not prevail against his church?  What are the "gates of hades" (the grave), and what do those gates have to do with prevailing against the departed dead?

And given the definitions above, can you explain why you apparently see Mosiah 27:13 (and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), verses referring to the transgressions or apostasy of the people from the church, as being in contradiction to what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18?

And given that Jesus told Peter in Matthew 16:16-18, that the truth about Christ was revealed to him from heaven by God the Father, and told him that it was on that rock that he would build his church, why would there be any reason to doubt that God could not reestablish his church using revelation at any point in time?

[Pyreaux]

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Given that the word "hell" in Matthew 16:18 is translated from the Greek word hades, which is defined as "the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell", what do you suppose that Jesus had in mind when he said that the "gates of hades" (the grave, the place of departed souls) would not prevail against his church?  What are the "gates of hades" (the grave), and what do those gates have to do with prevailing against the departed dead?

If the verse was relevant to an apostasy, could it be that Jesus actually confirmed that the apostasy would occur in this verse? Being the "gates [not a force that can "attack" anything]" of "hell ([hades]=realm of all dead)" only "prevails" by keeping things in or out: Where is the church in this scenario of attacking the gates? Either: He is saying the Church will be 'inside' the Gates of Hades, or that it would one day be dead i.e., apostasy, but it will not be held back by the gates, and that by the "keys of the kingdom" would unlock those gates and free it? Or: It's not about apostasy, the church is 'outside' the Gates of Hades, Hades is doomed to be defeated by the Church, whom will be infiltrating Hades. Their weapon will be the "keys" of that "bind" or "seal", power Jesus gave Peter and the other apostles. By these keys they could "loose" or unlock the gates with the keys of death and hell.

Can anyone explain to the satisfaction of us why if by Jesus giving the "keys of the kingdom" to his church would prevent the church from apostacy, why those who supposedly are a part of that church, admittedly aren't able to attack the realm of the dead, can't preach because they can't reach the dead, or take the "captives captive" among the dead? Or do they deny the "keys" of God's church can prevail against the gates of Hades? The Latter-day Saints say that these keys are in our possession today, and that we prevail against the gates of Hades where others seemingly cannot. Many Protestants don't even believe in "Hades (Underworld / Spirit World)", let alone that there are any "gates" thereof to defeat.

Edited March 19, 2025 by Pyreaux

[Dario_M]

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Well, you finally got us. Where do I send my resignation letter?

😐

🤣

[halconero]

We call this process the Restoration or a Dispensation.

[california boy]

22 hours ago, CV75 said:

The gates of hell (mortality and the fallen condition) and the transgression (apostasy) of mortal and fallen members of Christ’s Church are two different things. Christ overcame the gates of hell, and by so doing, permanently established His Church in heaven and liberated the agency of mortal and fallen people, who can, en masse and if sufficient, reject Him enough to overthrow His Church on the earth (apostasy). We believe that the particulars surrounding the current restoration after the last time this happened prevents a universal overthrow by the great and abominable church from happening again. 

Why would God need to establish his Church in heaven??? What would be the purpose of that kind of organization in heaven?

[california boy]

On 3/18/2025 at 8:53 AM, InCognitus said:

Of course we've never discussed anything like this before, right?   

See Ensign, August 1993, "What did Jesus mean when he said to Peter, as recorded in Matthew 16:18, that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against [my church]”?"

So the "gates of hell" passage has nothing to do with whether the church could ever be overthrown in any given place or time, or that it could never fall into apostasy (even the house of Israel went in and out of apostasy many times). 

God doesn't control us to prevent us from falling into transgression.  But he can send prophets of God to reveal his teachings and restore his church when the circumstances are appropriate for doing that.

I am trying to work this out.  So the sins of our fathers,(those living after Christ) sinned and apostatized from Christ Church, so God allows that Church which is suppose to lead his Children back to his presence goes missing for literally hundreds of years depriving any future generations of that path back to Him.  Then approximately 1700 years later,God decides to bring His Church back so that NOW after generations and generations of his Children were deprived of that path could now move forward.  During ALL those years, not a single person was born on earth that God could use as a prophet?  Just how important is having His Church on earth???  Seems like the overwhelming numbers of His children did just fine without it.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Why would God need to establish his Church in heaven??? What would be the purpose of that kind of organization in heaven?

The Bible mentions the Church of the Firstborn. What kind of organization do you believe it is? What other kinds of organization and organizations do you believe might exist in heaven along the way to exaltation, beginning in the premortal life? Councils, rulers, kingdoms, etc. are also mentioned in scripture as organizations or organizations within organizations in heaven. It seems the reason God establishes these organizations is to gather His children along the way, their purpose being to invite, help and bless them along the way.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I am trying to work this out.  So the sins of our fathers,(those living after Christ) sinned and apostatized from Christ Church, so God allows that Church which is suppose to lead his Children back to his presence goes missing for literally hundreds of years depriving any future generations of that path back to Him.  Then approximately 1700 years later,God decides to bring His Church back so that NOW after generations and generations of his Children were deprived of that path could now move forward.  During ALL those years, not a single person was born on earth that God could use as a prophet?  Just how important is having His Church on earth???  Seems like the overwhelming numbers of His children did just fine without it.

This is a complicated question because there are many things to be considered in God’s overall plan, such as respecting man’s agency, the general feasibility of perpetuating a church on the earth given the political circumstances and many other factors, and the over all plan that God has for recovering his people, which includes preaching the gospel to those in the spirit world and temple ordinances on behalf of the dead.

I believe that the establishment of Christ’s church in the meridian of time prepared the way for God’s overall plan to be fulfilled, bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of all men to accept the gospel, even though that church fell into apostasy. The establishment of Christianity at that time planted seeds that spread throughout the world and it facilitates the preaching of the restored gospel in these days.

And the political climate at the time of Christ and for hundreds of years thereafter would not allow for the church to take hold and function the way it needed to function.  

In the Book of Mormon in Nephi’s vision of the tree of life, Nephi is shown the life of Christ and many future events.  After being shown the crucifixion of the Savior, Nephi saw “the multitudes of the earth, that they were gathered together to fight against the apostles of the Lamb”.  In chapter 13 of 1 Nephi, Nephi saw that the great apostasy came about because Satan was the founder of “a great and abominable church” that “slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.”  

Now this is not a “church” as we might think of a church, but it represents all those who are against God and who fight against Zion, in all periods of time (2 Nephi 10:16).  They “destroy the saints of God” and they do it for “the praise of the world”, so that they can “bring them down into captivity” (verse 9).  They also “pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men (verse 27)”.  

These statements accurately describe the forces that brought about the apostasy and the attitude of the governments and religious organizations of the world for many centuries thereafter.  It is described as a period of “captivity”, and it prevented the freedom of belief and worship.  And I believe the establishment of the United States was an important part of preparing for the restoration of the gospel (and even then it almost didn't make it due to attitudes that were perpetuated from the period of "captivity"). 

So I think this is all part of the plan to bring about a development of attitudes that would allow for mankind to receive the greater principles and teachings that God has to offer.  It takes time, but the Lord knows what he's doing.  It's all in the big picture.

[telnetd]

On 3/18/2025 at 11:26 AM, teddyaware said:

As I write, the Nephite Church of Christ continues, with three ordained living representatives who are currently walking the earth,

Doing what?

[telnetd]

On 3/18/2025 at 9:39 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Well, you finally got us. Where do I send my resignation letter?

😐

Hopefully you are not the Big Easy  😐

[telnetd]

13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What other kinds of organization and organizations do you believe might exist in heaven along the way to exaltation, beginning in the premortal life?

I can't speculate on that.

[telnetd]

On 3/18/2025 at 11:53 AM, InCognitus said:

See Ensign, August 1993, "What did Jesus mean when he said to Peter, as recorded in Matthew 16:18, that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against [my church]”?"

I'll check.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I am trying to work this out.  So the sins of our fathers,(those living after Christ) sinned and apostatized from Christ Church, so God allows that Church which is suppose to lead his Children back to his presence goes missing for literally hundreds of years depriving any future generations of that path back to Him.  Then approximately 1700 years later,God decides to bring His Church back so that NOW after generations and generations of his Children were deprived of that path could now move forward.  During ALL those years, not a single person was born on earth that God could use as a prophet?  Just how important is having His Church on earth???  Seems like the overwhelming numbers of His children did just fine without it.

Just because He is God, He is not exempt from organization, an eternal law. The "overwhelming numbers" were still watched over by the organization, the Kingdom of God in Heaven, in anticipation of the various dispensations (which had churches/organizations) and this final restored Church upon the earth. Heaven and earth are to be eventually sealed together, irrespective of the spiritual highs and lows that can be found in either ("war in heaven" in heaven, the wars and all that come of them on earth). The light of Christ shines even when the church on earth is not organized; His atonement always covers the affairs of humanity. All opposition is necessary and is to be reconciled through Christ so that we can be exalted. So, His Church on earth is important, especially at the juncture of bringing heaven and earth together permanently.

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I can't speculate on that.

But you can read more about them  

[california boy]

13 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

This is a complicated question because there are many things to be considered in God’s overall plan, such as respecting man’s agency, the general feasibility of perpetuating a church on the earth given the political circumstances and many other factors, and the over all plan that God has for recovering his people, which includes preaching the gospel to those in the spirit world and temple ordinances on behalf of the dead.

But wouldn't part of respecting man's agency be allowing man to join His Church while on earth?  Allowing His Church to be completely wiped off the face of the earth for 1700 years kinda eliminates that option don't you think?  And hasn't there always be people who seek God wanting to know His will?  Or is your understanding that there was absolutely no one in those 1700+ years that were seeking to find His Church, only to be told that none existed.  Just trying to figure out what agency means to you in this context.

 

13 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I believe that the establishment of Christ’s church in the meridian of time prepared the way for God’s overall plan to be fulfilled, bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of all men to accept the gospel, even though that church fell into apostasy. The establishment of Christianity at that time planted seeds that spread throughout the world and it facilitates the preaching of the restored gospel in these days.

And the political climate at the time of Christ and for hundreds of years thereafter would not allow for the church to take hold and function the way it needed to function.  

In the Book of Mormon in Nephi’s vision of the tree of life, Nephi is shown the life of Christ and many future events.  After being shown the crucifixion of the Savior, Nephi saw “the multitudes of the earth, that they were gathered together to fight against the apostles of the Lamb”.  In chapter 13 of 1 Nephi, Nephi saw that the great apostasy came about because Satan was the founder of “a great and abominable church” that “slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.”  

So does this mean that Satan was stronger in convincing people to rebel against Christ and ultimately won that battle?  God walked away defeated for 1700+ years?

13 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Now this is not a “church” as we might think of a church, but it represents all those who are against God and who fight against Zion, in all periods of time (2 Nephi 10:16).  They “destroy the saints of God” and they do it for “the praise of the world”, so that they can “bring them down into captivity” (verse 9).  They also “pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men (verse 27)”.  

These statements accurately describe the forces that brought about the apostasy and the attitude of the governments and religious organizations of the world for many centuries thereafter.  It is described as a period of “captivity”, and it prevented the freedom of belief and worship.  And I believe the establishment of the United States was an important part of preparing for the restoration of the gospel (and even then it almost didn't make it due to attitudes that were perpetuated from the period of "captivity"). 

So I think this is all part of the plan to bring about a development of attitudes that would allow for mankind to receive the greater principles and teachings that God has to offer.  It takes time, but the Lord knows what he's doing.  It's all in the big picture.

So does this mean that your position is that until the United States was established, there was no way God's Church could have existed anywhere in the world?  Just wondering how you put all these pieces together 

[california boy]

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Just because He is God, He is not exempt from organization, an eternal law. The "overwhelming numbers" were still watched over by the organization, the Kingdom of God in Heaven, in anticipation of the various dispensations (which had churches/organizations) and this final restored Church upon the earth.

But the "overwhelming numbers" are still against the Church, yet it is allowed to exist.  

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Heaven and earth are to be eventually sealed together, irrespective of the spiritual highs and lows that can be found in either ("war in heaven" in heaven, the wars and all that come of them on earth). The light of Christ shines even when the church on earth is not organized; His atonement always covers the affairs of humanity. All opposition is necessary and is to be reconciled through Christ so that we can be exalted. So, His Church on earth is important, especially at the juncture of bringing heaven and earth together permanently.

I get that Christ's atonement was still in affect.  But if that is all that is important, then why establish a Church today that only has what .02% of the worlds population in it?  What are you expecting that small group of people on earth to do that can't be done by God without them?  Seems like the world got along fine without the Church for almost 2000 years.  

This answer isn't really new to me.  I remember hearing this line of thought since I was a kid.  But now, I am trying to make some sense in what was being taught. 

 

[InCognitus]

35 minutes ago, california boy said:

So does this mean that Satan was stronger in convincing people to rebel against Christ and ultimately won that battle?  God walked away defeated for 1700+ years?

It means that God let the people do what people do, they have their agency and made their choices.  Israel went through cycles of righteousness and apostasy, and they were ultimately scattered throughout the earth.  But God's plan includes gathering them in again.  Everyone will be taught the gospel and everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject it. 

35 minutes ago, california boy said:

So does this mean that your position is that until the United States was established, there was no way God's Church could have existed anywhere in the world?  Just wondering how you put all these pieces together 

The United States isn't that important, but it is the environment that lets the church send missionaries to all the world, build temples, and be the headquarters of a world wide church.  Where else could that happen in 1830 and still have it exist today?

ETA:  Or where else could that happen anytime between 90 AD and 1830 for that matter?

Edited March 19, 2025 by InCognitus

[InCognitus]

54 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I'll check.

Don't forget my other questions too.