Diet

[Orthodox Christian]

Good morning to you all. I have had a thought that maybe you can clarify for me. The LDS do not drink tea, coffee nor alcohol. Alcohol I can understand, but tea and coffee not so much. So do you consume decafeinated tea and coffee ? Now the thought that I mentioned is this, knowing what we know about nutrition today, aren't there greater risks to health than tea or coffee ? Sugar for instance: a totally unnecessary and dangerous substance. Refined flours which also are bad for health, ultra processed convenience foods also which are nutrient deficient, industrial produced seed oils. Our health in the West has been sabotaged by the food industry and the evidence for this is walkng  all around us in the form of diabetes, obesity, food caused inflammations which are causative factors in heart disease and cancers. In view of this, does the ban on tea and coffee seem out date, could you explain the reason for it in the first place, and should your leaders be addressing the present day food issues and guiding the LDS towards truly healthier lives by  encouraging educating themselves about the real dangers in food today. The possibility of this may seem heavy handed nannying to modern LDS, but the tea and coffee ban I presume came from your leaders in the past, and to which the majority of LDS still adhere and I assume is promoted to converts, yet to me at least it seems to have outlived any usefulness might have had. I mean how can it be sensibly promoted as a health benefit in view of the modern challenges our food in general presents to us all today ? What is it actually promoted as ? A health thing or a Mormon thing that distinguishes the LDS from other traditions, I mean how do you get people to continue to comply in light of modern nutritional knowledge ? 

Edited October 28 by Orthodox Christian

[ZealouslyStriving]

27 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Good morning to you all. I have had a thought that maybe you can clarify for me. The LDS do not drink tea, coffee nor alcohol. Alcohol I can understand, but tea and coffee not so much. So do you consume decafeinated tea and coffee ? Now the thought that I mentioned is this, knowing what we know about nutrition today, aren't there greater risks to health than tea or coffee ? Sugar for instance: a totally unnecessary and dangerous substance. Refined flours which also are bad for health, ultra processed convenience foods also which are nutrient deficient, industrial produced seed oils. Our health in the West has been sabotaged by the food industry and the evidence for this is walkng  all around us in the form of diabetes, obesity, food caused inflammations which are causative factors in heart disease and cancers. In view of this, does the ban on tea and coffee seem out date, could you explain the reason for it in the first place, and should your leaders be addressing the present day food issues and guiding the LDS towards truly healthier lives by  encouraging educating themselves about the real dangers in food today. The possibility of this may seem heavy handed nannying to modern LDS, but the tea and coffee ban I presume came from your leaders in the past, and to which the majority of LDS still adhere and I assume is promoted to converts, yet to me at least it seems to have outlived any usefulness might have had. I mean how can it be sensibly promoted as a health benefit in view of the modern challenges our food in general presents to us all today ? What is it actually promoted as ? A health thing or a Mormon thing that distinguishes the LDS from other traditions, I mean how do you get people to continue to comply in light of modern nutritional knowledge ? 

I encourage you to read the whole of Doctrine and Covenants 89.

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I encourage you to read the whole of Doctrine and Covenants 89.

Hello, I don't have the Doctrine and Covenants. When was it written? 

[ZealouslyStriving]

26 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello, I don't have the Doctrine and Covenants. When was it written? 

Doctrine and Covenants 89

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng

[ZealouslyStriving]

Also:

Word of Wisdom

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics?lang=eng#map98

 

[MustardSeed]

Hello. 
There are many things we do in the church that are confusing.  This is one.  
 
Many of us comply to the rule not because we believe it’s going to keep us healthy while we eat our fats and sugars, but because we are obedient, and it is a rule that is going to allow us entry to the temple.  You will not receive an answer to your question that will satisfy your curiosity regarding the facts as we know them. 
 

I have a lot of serious concerns about the food that companies are selling us. The ingredients are so dangerous for our bodies and one by one, food companies are joining the ranks with additives and fillers that are poison.  Every time I walk into a grocery store I know that I’m going to be walking out with things that are hidden in my foods, even the produce, that is bad for my body. That creates all sorts of struggles internally for me.
 

human beings tend to be walking contradictions.  Admire us for our willingness to do many of us have believed our entire lives is God’s will. We are honestly doing our best. We are imperfect. We are not avoiding coffee for any reason other than to try to do what God wants us to do. We don’t judge you for drinking your coffee.  
In fact, some of us envy you. Hopefully those of us who wish we could - we get extra points for obedience.  

 

 

Edited October 28 by MustardSeed

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Good morning to you all. I have had a thought that maybe you can clarify for me. The LDS do not drink tea, coffee nor alcohol. Alcohol I can understand, but tea and coffee not so much. So do you consume decafeinated tea and coffee ? Now the thought that I mentioned is this, knowing what we know about nutrition today, aren't there greater risks to health than tea or coffee ? Sugar for instance: a totally unnecessary and dangerous substance. Refined flours which also are bad for health, ultra processed convenience foods also which are nutrient deficient, industrial produced seed oils. Our health in the West has been sabotaged by the food industry and the evidence for this is walkng  all around us in the form of diabetes, obesity, food caused inflammations which are causative factors in heart disease and cancers. In view of this, does the ban on tea and coffee seem out date, could you explain the reason for it in the first place, and should your leaders be addressing the present day food issues and guiding the LDS towards truly healthier lives by  encouraging educating themselves about the real dangers in food today. The possibility of this may seem heavy handed nannying to modern LDS, but the tea and coffee ban I presume came from your leaders in the past, and to which the majority of LDS still adhere and I assume is promoted to converts, yet to me at least it seems to have outlived any usefulness might have had. I mean how can it be sensibly promoted as a health benefit in view of the modern challenges our food in general presents to us all today ? What is it actually promoted as ? A health thing or a Mormon thing that distinguishes the LDS from other traditions, I mean how do you get people to continue to comply in light of modern nutritional knowledge ? 

It is first and foremost a spiritual principle with a spiritual promise, and this then leads to the promised temporal benefits, including expanded understanding in all aspects of life in a way that helps us walk with Christ and perform His will. And protection from the destroying angel. So, it may not appear to be very scientific on the surface.

Edited October 28 by CV75

[Pyreaux]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Good morning to you all. I have had a thought that maybe you can clarify for me. The LDS do not drink tea, coffee nor alcohol. Alcohol I can understand, but tea and coffee not so much. So do you consume decafeinated tea and coffee ? Now the thought that I mentioned is this, knowing what we know about nutrition today, aren't there greater risks to health than tea or coffee ? Sugar for instance: a totally unnecessary and dangerous substance. Refined flours which also are bad for health, ultra processed convenience foods also which are nutrient deficient, industrial produced seed oils. Our health in the West has been sabotaged by the food industry and the evidence for this is walkng  all around us in the form of diabetes, obesity, food caused inflammations which are causative factors in heart disease and cancers. In view of this, does the ban on tea and coffee seem out date, could you explain the reason for it in the first place, and should your leaders be addressing the present day food issues and guiding the LDS towards truly healthier lives by  encouraging educating themselves about the real dangers in food today. The possibility of this may seem heavy handed nannying to modern LDS, but the tea and coffee ban I presume came from your leaders in the past, and to which the majority of LDS still adhere and I assume is promoted to converts, yet to me at least it seems to have outlived any usefulness might have had. I mean how can it be sensibly promoted as a health benefit in view of the modern challenges our food in general presents to us all today ? What is it actually promoted as ? A health thing or a Mormon thing that distinguishes the LDS from other traditions, I mean how do you get people to continue to comply in light of modern nutritional knowledge ? 

The "Word of Wisdom" is a revised policy merely based on Doctrine and Covenants 89, which was originally seen as virtues. Verse 4 was the original beginning implying its purpose was: "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom". There is more to it than just health. It contains principles which are to be "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints". The church was once way more tolerant, the strict modern policy (that emerged in the era of the Temprence movement) specifically prohibits alcohol, tobacco, coffee (any "ccinos") and tea (camellia sinensis, most certainly black tea, if not also green and white tea), and illegal drugs (marijuana, etc) without a medical reason.

Again, only based on an original revelation that has other details, like eating meat sparingly, etc. and at the time was considered mere virtues, not prohibitions. It originally was against "hot drinks", later defined as "coffee and tea" (not herbal teas, hot cider, hot coco, broths, soup). But no information about what exactly is in coffee and tea that is to be avoided. We now know caffeine is in both, except caffeine is not what Is prohibited. Therefore, LDS can and do drink caffeinated soft drinks but not decaffeinated coffee.

On occasion, usually Utahans' seem to have a cultural tick that mixes up "no coffee or tea" with "no caffein" interchangeably.

Keeping away from what I'd consider mood altering substances and promoting general sobriety rather than mere health, which is a biblical principle, just with the addition of New World only vices.

[JVW]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Good morning to you all. I have had a thought that maybe you can clarify for me. The LDS do not drink tea, coffee nor alcohol. Alcohol I can understand, but tea and coffee not so much.

You and me both, brother.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

So do you consume decafeinated tea and coffee ? Now the thought that I mentioned is this, knowing what we know about nutrition today,

I have known people who viewed caffeine as the problem and drank decaffeinated tea and coffee. I know other people who don't drink tea and coffee, but are fine with coffee ice cream or herbal tea extract as an ingredient in their beverage or food of choice. Yet others I know who are ok with herbal tea, but any other tea or coffee ingredient listed anywhere is a 'no'. There's a variety of ways that people interpret the word of wisdom. To be clear, caffeine is not included as part of the word of wisdom.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

aren't there greater risks to health than tea or coffee ?

Yes, there are many, many greater risks.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Sugar for instance: a totally unnecessary and dangerous substance. Refined flours which also are bad for health, ultra processed convenience foods also which are nutrient deficient, industrial produced seed oils. Our health in the West has been sabotaged by the food industry and the evidence for this is walkng  all around us in the form of diabetes, obesity, food caused inflammations which are causative factors in heart disease and cancers.

Amen.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

In view of this, does the ban on tea and coffee seem out date, could you explain the reason for it in the first place, and should your leaders be addressing the present day food issues and guiding the LDS towards truly healthier lives by  encouraging educating themselves about the real dangers in food today. The possibility of this may seem heavy handed nannying to modern LDS, but the tea and coffee ban I presume came from your leaders in the past, and to which the majority of LDS still adhere and I assume is promoted to converts, yet to me at least it seems to have outlived any usefulness might have had.

I think there is some usefulness to keeping tea and coffee in the word of wisdom, I highlight some of this later in my reply, I just ran out of time to finish this post.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I mean how can it be sensibly promoted as a health benefit in view of the modern challenges our food in general presents to us all today ?

The word of wisdom is not about health benefits even though it is touted as a health code. It is guidance on how to treat your body, which is a temple of the Holy Spirit, in order to honor God and stand out as His peculiar people. It is "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days". As it is written in section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants, it is not a commandment. It didn't become a commandment until Heber J. Grant became president of the church. As I understand it he made it a requirement for priesthood advancement and the temple recommend in large part because of his alcoholic step-father.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

What is it actually promoted as ?

Currently, the word of wisdom isn't really promoted. I haven't heard any WoW talks in General Conference since before 2018. I don't really hear it talked about in church very often. The temple recommend interview was changed to make the WoW question less explicit, it currently asks if you live the word of wisdom according to how you understand it. Marijuana is now allowed under the WoW because it's a prescription drug. If you look at the WoW as a Pharisee, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. But if you look at the spirit of it it's a really nice commandment and something to be envied.

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

A health thing or a Mormon thing that distinguishes the LDS from other traditions, I mean how do you get people to continue to comply in light of modern nutritional knowledge ? 

You tell them, if you smoke, drink, do illegal drugs, or drink tea or coffee you can't be baptized, exercise the priesthood, or get a temple recommend. On my end I don't think it's difficult to not drink tea or coffee. Before converting I drank a liter or two a day of tea and had coffee a lot as well. I also am not into sugar and am very cognizant of what I eat. Ultimately, I think the value of the word of wisdom is in encouraging members to be healthy and to be cognizant of what they ingest. It's just like having a budget, even if all you do is monitor how much money you're spending, without putting constraints on it, you'll naturally spend less money. On the one hand, it can be argued that the WoW makes people less healthy as they turn to Dr. Pepper when they otherwise would've had a coffee. On the other hand, perhaps the Saints would be even less healthy if there were no word of wisdom as they'd have zero self-awareness of what they are ingesting.

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I encourage you to read the whole of Doctrine and Covenants 89.

That'll just be confusing, since tea and coffee are not mentioned as prohibited, but beer is mentioned as being ok  

And so much for ward barbecues!

[Dario_M]

The church rule about tea and coffee is indeed a bit ridicelous. Especially "tea" while you may drink energy drink and Coca Cola. It's a bit hypocrite offcourse like everyone knows.

Me, i am a member of the LDS comunnity. But i'm hypocrite... i drink tea, coffee, energy drink, Coca Cola, and booze. Alcohol i don't drink that often. Just on a chearfull equation. 😇

Edited October 28 by Dario_M

[Orthodox Christian]

3 hours ago, JVW said:

You and me both, brother.

I have known people who viewed caffeine as the problem and drank decaffeinated tea and coffee. I know other people who don't drink tea and coffee, but are fine with coffee ice cream or herbal tea extract as an ingredient in their beverage or food of choice. Yet others I know who are ok with herbal tea, but any other tea or coffee ingredient listed anywhere is a 'no'. There's a variety of ways that people interpret the word of wisdom. To be clear, caffeine is not included as part of the word of wisdom.

Yes, there are many, many greater risks.

Amen.

I think there is some usefulness to keeping tea and coffee in the word of wisdom, I highlight some of this later in my reply, I just ran out of time to finish this post.

The word of wisdom is not about health benefits even though it is touted as a health code. It is guidance on how to treat your body, which is a temple of the Holy Spirit, in order to honor God and stand out as His peculiar people. It is "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days". As it is written in section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants, it is not a commandment. It didn't become a commandment until Heber J. Grant became president of the church. As I understand it he made it a requirement for priesthood advancement and the temple recommend in large part because of his alcoholic step-father.

Currently, the word of wisdom isn't really promoted. I haven't heard any WoW talks in General Conference since before 2018. I don't really hear it talked about in church very often. The temple recommend interview was changed to make the WoW question less explicit, it currently asks if you live the word of wisdom according to how you understand it. Marijuana is now allowed under the WoW because it's a prescription drug. If you look at the WoW as a Pharisee, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. But if you look at the spirit of it it's a really nice commandment and something to be envied.

You tell them, if you smoke, drink, do illegal drugs, or drink tea or coffee you can't be baptized, exercise the priesthood, or get a temple recommend. On my end I don't think it's difficult to not drink tea or coffee. Before converting I drank a liter or two a day of tea and had coffee a lot as well. I also am not into sugar and am very cognizant of what I eat. Ultimately, I think the value of the word of wisdom is in encouraging members to be healthy and to be cognizant of what they ingest. It's just like having a budget, even if all you do is monitor how much money you're spending, without putting constraints on it, you'll naturally spend less money. On the one hand, it can be argued that the WoW makes people less healthy as they turn to Dr. Pepper when they otherwise would've had a coffee. On the other hand, perhaps the Saints would be even less healthy if there were no word of wisdom as they'd have zero self-awareness of what they are ingesting.

Thank you

 

[Orthodox Christian]

48 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

That'll just be confusing, since tea and coffee are not mentioned as prohibited, but beer is mentioned as being ok  

And so much for ward barbecues!

🤔

[Orthodox Christian]

Thank you for your replies, I suppose you have to be LDS to navigate this confusion 😉

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

The "Word of Wisdom" is a revised policy merely based on Doctrine and Covenants 89, which was originally seen as virtues. Verse 4 was the original beginning implying its purpose was: "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom". There is more to it than just health. It contains principles which are to be "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints". The church was once way more tolerant, the strict modern policy (that emerged in the era of the Temprence movement) specifically prohibits alcohol, tobacco, coffee (any "ccinos") and tea (camellia sinensis, most certainly black tea, if not also green and white tea), and illegal drugs (marijuana, etc) without a medical reason.

Again, only based on an original revelation that has other details, like eating meat sparingly, etc. and at the time was considered mere virtues, not prohibitions. It originally was against "hot drinks", later defined as "coffee and tea" (not herbal teas, hot cider, hot coco, broths, soup). But no information about what exactly is in coffee and tea that is to be avoided. We now know caffeine is in both, except caffeine is not what Is prohibited. Therefore, LDS can and do drink caffeinated soft drinks but not decaffeinated coffee.

On occasion, usually Utahans' seem to have a cultural tick that mixes up "no coffee or tea" with "no caffein" interchangeably.

This is not a Utah thing.  I have seen some people outside of Utah do it far more strictly than most people inside of Utah. 

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Keeping away from what I'd consider mood altering substances and promoting general sobriety rather than mere health, which is a biblical principle, just with the addition of New World only vices.

 

[Rain]

51 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you for your replies, I suppose you have to be LDS to navigate this confusion 😉

It's actually pretty simple.

• Don't consume alcohol, coffee, tea, tobacco, or illegal drugs if you want to attend the temple. 
• If you want to obey the spirit of the law, you should also be wise about what you put in your body.    

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you for your replies, I suppose you have to be LDS to navigate this confusion 😉

Is it no meat on just Fridays or Wednesdays and Fridays- and what others days can you not eat meat? When is fish included in the prohibition and when is it not?

😉

[MustardSeed]

59 minutes ago, Rain said:

It's actually pretty simple.

• Don't consume alcohol, coffee, tea, tobacco, or illegal drugs if you want to attend the temple. 
• If you want to obey the spirit of the law, you should also be wise about what you put in your body.    

There ya go.  It’s not hard at all.  
 

I try to be healthy but if outsiders are gonna judge, I’m gonna fail that sniff test every day. I’m just doing my best, and hopefully God sees that. 

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Is it no meat on just Fridays or Wednesdays and Fridays- and what others days can you not eat meat? When is fish included in the prohibition and when is it not?

😉

On Wednesday and Friday we are vegan really, no meat, fish, dairy, eggs or oil generally. This extends to 4weeks for the Nativity fast and forty days plus the Triodian during Great LENT, similarly though not for as long for the Dormition fast. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

On Wednesday and Friday we are vegan really, no meat, fish, dairy, eggs or oil generally. This extends to 4weeks for the Nativity fast and forty days plus the Triodian during Great LENT, similarly though not for as long for the Dormition fast. 

We fast on the first Sunday of each month... Easy peasy.

[Orthodox Christian]

20 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

We fast on the first Sunday of each month... Easy peasy.

Ours is more abstinence than pure fasting where only water is taken, with the exception possibly of monks and nuns. But since it can be a long period of fasting from many food groups that we enjoy, thanks be to God, it certainly can be tough physically, but spiritually rewarding. Though, tbh, I often fail, but then start the next day anew. 

 

[MiserereNobis]

56 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

We fast on the first Sunday of each month... Easy peasy.

For us, Sunday is a feast day, a celebration of Christ's resurrection. There is never a fast or abstinence on Sunday. The Sundays during Lent don't count as part of the 40 day Lenten fast.

[Orthodox Christian]

19 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

For us, Sunday is a feast day, a celebration of Christ's resurrection. There is never a fast or abstinence on Sunday. The Sundays during Lent don't count as part of the 40 day Lenten fast.

Yes, we may be allowed oil or wine on certain days or even fish, but Sunday are not necessarily exempt from the fast. 

[Calm]

Herbal tea is confusingly called tea by many because the process is the same as making tea (steeping the plant, they are all infusions or tisanes).  But it is the plant that is the issue, not the process…at least that is the policy as it’s been defined since almost the beginning when “hot drinks” were clarified.

Therefore there is no ban against them, though some members think there is.

https://uk.churchofjesuschrist.org/why-mormons-dont-drink-alcohol-tea-and-coffee

Quote

They  are also taught not to drink “hot drinks,” meaning coffee or any tea other than herbal tea (see D&C 89:9), and not to use tobacco (see D&C 89:8). 

Quote

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbsGod hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng&id=9#p16

Edited October 28 by Calm

[Teancum]

9 hours ago, CV75 said:

And protection from the destroying angel.

What is the destroying angel and how does obeying to WoW protect one from this thing?