Conservative Media Rails Against Church

[smac97]

KUTV in June: 'No space' in Utah, as Denver pays for migrants to relocate here

Quote

Denver is paying travel costs to send migrants to Utah — roughly 2,000 so far — even as the state, Salt Lake City and Salt Lake County lack capacity to care for them, and as they urge asylum seekers to go someplace else.

"Any individual who travels through our system makes their own decision on their destination," said Jon Ewing, with the Denver City-County Department of Human Services. "We are simply helping people connect with family, friends, or existing support systems."

Less than a week ago, 2News reported on migrant families 'processed' at the southern border, then sent to Denver, and then who landed here with hardly any guidance or preparation.

"They arrived in Salt Lake City with very little information other than instructions to find a person in uniform to help," said Salt Lake Police Chief Mike Brown, in an email to the department.

A news publication, Denverite, reported in February that Denver bought more than 1,600 bus tickets since late 2022 to send "new immigrants" to Salt Lake City. Thursday, Ewing gave the updated 2,000 figure.

2News asked if local leaders expressed concerns over Denver's pay-to-send practice. We contacted spokespersons for the state, city and county.

"I have, myself, communicated our displeasure," said Andrew Roberts, chief of staff for Salt Lake County Mayor Jenny Wilson, adding local resources cannot "absorb" an influx of migrants.

A spokesman for the Salt Lake City Mayor's Office first said it had "not independently confirmed" Denver is paying to send migrants---then later said it's his understanding the Mayor's Office conveyed concerns about it to Denver counterparts, but he was not on the call.

Within the last several weeks, officials in Utah approved a flyer---all in Spanish---that essentially tells asylum seekers not to come here. Salt Lake City and County mayors, and the state signed off on the language.

"There is no space available in shelters," said the flyer, which contains the state seal, and logos for Salt Lake City and County. "Food banks and other basic needs services are at capacity. If you do not have a secure and stable connection or family in Utah, consider another state to settle in the US."

2News has not had an answer on where the flyer is being distributed, but the Governor's Office said, "Now, with this bulletin, we’re communicating directly with those illegally crossing the border."

Denver said it’s had more than 42,000 people arrive from the southern border since late 2022.

While Denver has paid the fares of migrants bound here, Ewing said "in rare instances" when it buys plane tickets, "we will try to inform cities of the travel."

Ewing called the notion Denver is moving a “problem” to Utah “a misunderstanding of the situation and of people’s needs.”

He also said Denver is in "regular communication" with cities across the country.

The Salt Lake City Mayor's Office said it was unaware in advance of the migrant transfers to Salt Lake in late May, and police said they had never dealt with newly-arrived migrants in distress.

Ewing said Denver will continue to pay costs of sending migrants here.

“Yeah we will,” he said. “Again, it’s at their request. We will never encourage anyone to go to Salt Lake City. We will never point a finger at a map and tell someone where they should go.”

A spokesman for the Salt Lake County Mayor’s Office said it takes pride in a welcoming reputation, “but there is a limit to the resources we can provide to people in need”—and Salt Lake City said more often, the metro area is seeing asylum seekers “who do not have existing connections or family in Utah.”

Today on Breitbart: Utah in Uproar as Mormon Church Pulls in Thousands of Migrants

Quote

The Mormon Church — officially the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS) — is quietly welcoming thousands of migrants sent to Utah from overcrowded Denver, Colorado, despite public protests by state and local elected officials.

Utah has suffered under the arrival of thousands of cast-off border crossers sent its way by officials in Denver, but even as the state has no resources for migrants, the Mormon Church is quietly welcoming them, causing the public burden to magnify.

I think the Church is doing what it is supposed to do, while politicians need to do what they are supposed to do.

Quote

The issue has grown so vexing to Utah officials that Cox’s administration has begun sending out flyers printed in Spanish to warn illegals not to come to Utah because there are no free programs for them to take advantage of.

“There is no space available in shelters,” the flyers state. “Food banks and other basic needs services are at capacity. If you do not have a secure and stable connection or family in Utah, consider another state to settle in the US.”

Well, that's something.  But state politicians are not really situated to address illegal immigration and its adverse effects head-on.

Quote

Despite all the proclamations from elected officials that Utah is not a “sanctuary state,” the Mormon Church is undermining the lack of official sanctuary status by using its own vast resources to welcome illegals into the state by the thousands and working with non-profits and non-governmental organizations to cater to the migrants.

This seems a bit off.  The Church is not paying illegal immigrants to travel to Utah, but is providing some basic humanitarian support to whomever arrives here.  

Quote

The church has been outspoken in support of left-wing immigration policies and has, for instance, announced support for the Utah Compact, which demands federal reform of policy with an eye toward keeping families together and extending “compassion” to migrants, the Salt Lake Tribune reported.

This is an interesting phenomenon.  A few thoughts:

1. It is unusual to see The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being characterized as supporting "left-wing" policies.  I think the Church genuinely marches to the beat of its own moral/ideological drum.  Those who march to the beat of a politically-partisan drum end up privileging the ideology of a political party over all other considerations.  Put another way, the Church is not "{supporting} left-wing immigration policies" (as in conforming to politically-driven expectations and ideologies), but is instead charting its own ideological course.

2. I don't think the Church has ever staked out a position opposing securing the border with Mexico.  The Church's approach is, instead, more of a "we'll stay in our lane, you stay in yours" sort of thing:

Quote

Immigration

As a worldwide church dealing with many complex issues across the globe, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints promotes broad, foundational principles that have worldwide application:

• We follow Jesus Christ by loving our neighbors. The Savior taught that the meaning of “neighbor” includes all of God’s children, in all places, at all times.
• We recognize an ever-present need to strengthen families. Families are meant to be together. Forced separation of working parents from their children weakens families and damages society.
• We acknowledge that every nation has the right to enforce its laws and secure its borders. All persons subject to a nation’s laws are accountable for their acts in relation to them.

Public officials should create and administer laws that reflect the best of our aspirations as a just and caring society. Such laws will properly balance love for neighbors, family cohesion, and the observance of just and enforceable laws.

Additional Resources

• Church Statement on Separation of Families at the US-Mexico Border (June 18, 2018)
• Church Statement on Immigration (June 10, 2011)

From the Church's 2018 statement (in "Additional Resources" above) :

Quote

Due to media inquiries, the Church has issued the following statement:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long expressed its position that immigration reform should strengthen families and keep them together. The forced separation of children from their parents now occurring at the U.S.-Mexico border is harmful to families, especially to young children. We are deeply troubled by the aggressive and insensitive treatment of these families. While we recognize the right of all nations to enforce their laws and secure their borders, we encourage our national leaders to take swift action to correct this situation and seek for rational, compassionate solutions.

3. The Church has "announced support for the Utah Compact," but notably did not sign onto it.  From 2019:

Quote

Nearly a decade ago, when Utah immigration arguments grew vitriolic, a group of religious, civic and business leaders signed the Utah Compact. The document sought to cool debate by emphasizing humane treatment of immigrants, keeping families together and focusing deportation on serious criminals — an approach numerous other states later copied.
...

One group that was visibly absent was The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In 2010, the state’s predominant faith opted not to sign the compact but issued a news release endorsing it.

Miller said the church was invited to participate in Wednesday’s re-signing event. Church spokesman Doug Andersen said the Salt Lake City-based faith had difficulty clarifying the purpose of the meeting and did not want to become involved in specific political arguments on immigration. But, he added, “The church continues to be supportive of the compact and its principles.”

"Church spokesman Doug Andersen said ...{the Church} did not want to become involved in specific political arguments on immigration."

Yep.

And here (from June 2024) :

Quote

The church has established a firm foundation of immigrant-friendly bona fides. For instance:

• It endorsed — twice — the Utah Compact, which called for federal immigration reform with an eye toward compassion and keeping families together. Apostle Dieter Uchtdorf, himself a two-time refugee, praised it as a “pillar” in the immigration debate.

• In the first major policy statement under President Russell Nelson, the church urged Congress to protect from deportation “Dreamers” who were brought to the U.S. illegally as children by family members.

• The global faith launched a worldwide push to assist refugees with its “I Was a Stranger” initiative and routinely sends supplies to help displaced people.

• Meetinghouses have doubled as welcome centers in places like Las Vegas and Mesa, Arizona, helping newcomers to the U.S.

I think the "keeping families together" piece is one of the more difficult pieces of the immigration problem.  Doing it creates a substantial incentive for illegal immigration.  Not doing it causes substantial injury to families (though "families" are regularly disrupted when a parent commits crimes other than illegally crossing the border).

Anyway, back to the Breitbart article:

Quote

The church has also directed meeting houses to serve as migrant centers and shifted an unreported amount of church funding to the care of illegals.

Churches are supposed to help people, even if they have broken the law.

Quote

LDS officials have been issuing statements in support of illegal immigrants for years, as well. As far back as 2018, the church criticized federal policies that tend to remove children from their parents when families illegally cross the border.

And in that same statement the Church said:

Quote

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long expressed its position that immigration reform should strengthen families and keep them together. The forced separation of children from their parents now occurring at the U.S.-Mexico border is harmful to families, especially to young children. We are deeply troubled by the aggressive and insensitive treatment of these families. While we recognize the right of all nations to enforce their laws and secure their borders, we encourage our national leaders to take swift action to correct this situation and seek for rational, compassionate solutions.”

This is a good and nuanced approach, IMO.

Quote

In 2021, the LDS also stepped up its services for illegals as part of its “Immigrant Services Initiative.”

From the linked article:

Quote

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is stepping out in humanitarian services and initiatives, fulfilling the teaching of the New Testament to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and care for the widow and downtrodden.

As part of its Immigrant Services Initiative, the LDS Church has opened more than a dozen welcome centers throughout North America.

The centers are designed to help immigrants and refugees integrate into their new communities.

Volunteers help immigrants find access to community legal services, improve their English, strengthen emotional resilience, progress on a path to citizenship and better understand American culture so they can obtain better jobs and live better lives. All these services (both in-person and virtual) are free for immigrants, according to a church statement.

I think we are better off with illegal immigrants becoming more integrated while they are here.  Several nations in Europe are struggling mightily with non-assimilated immigrants, illegal and otherwise.

Any (non-political) thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 Nephi 21

 

"And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. 13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. 14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots; 15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds"

[ksfisher]

56 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Today on Breitbart: Utah in Uproar as Mormon Church Pulls in Thousands of Migrants

This seems like little more than clickbait and yellow journalism.

[LoudmouthMormon]

It's the hardest thing in the world.  "Love thy neighbor" is a commandment.  8+ billion people are our neighbor.   

At the same time, we've got what's called a "civilization" here, complete with a "society", an "economy", and many "institutions", all of which provide a "quality of life".  The more neighbors that show up, the more stress is added to all of them.  Human history is a revolving loop of the same thing over and over again.   Some of the repeating history involves migrating populations.  When small amounts of migrating populations show up, the larger population absorbs them.  When too many show up, or there's dysfunction in the existing population's rules or culture or practice or resource allocation, then other things happen. History is full of instances of migrating populations displacing/eliminating/absorbing the populations they migrate into.

They tell us a lot of humans have a tiny amount of Neanderthal DNA.  If the survival of the species is winning, then Homo Sapiens won, Neanderthals lost.

The Indo-European migrations from 4-1000 BCE , from north of the Black Sea into Europe, absorbed so many of the local populations that a crapton of the languages in Europe and South Asia have IndoEuropean roots.

Germanic and Slavic tribes spreading across Europe from 300-700 often settled in Roman territories, and are arguably one of the bigger reasons the Western Roman Empire fell.

Arab armies expanding across the Middle East, North Africa, and into Europe around 7-800 often absorbed local populations.  And it's pretty dang easy to see the cultural impact today.

Mongol Conquests in 13th-14th centuries.  Genghis Khan and successors.  Across Asia into Europe.  Lots of folks got swallowed up into the Mongol fold. 

European colonization of the Americas.  Spain, Portugal, Britain, and France won.  Native and indigenous peoples lost.  Folks who opine about the goodness or badness of things, often focus on this one.  Few of them seem to be informed about how "Hispanic" folks are basically the product of Spanish and Portuguese colonization all but utterly destroying all the indigenous peoples and culture.  Lots of fun DNA studies.  My buddy with roots in Mexico tells all about how much Incan DNA she has.  You can't find Incans any more.    Folks talk loud and long about the tragedies of the Native Americans during our colonial westward expansion and Manifest Destiny.  Then they show up on an actual real Indian reservation and get to know a few places and people, and learn the folks living there worry about preserving the ways of their fathers.  It gets awkward when "the ways of their fathers" include Christianity.

@smac97 asks for non-political thoughts.  This is my best attempt:

I like my nation, it's constitution, it's noble and great institutions.  They're all part of why we're so dang prosperous, and why so many folks want to go from where they are, to where we are.   I like my culture, and my standard of living.

Love thy neighbor.  2nd great commandment.  Does that mean we are doing wrong when we worry about the impact of too many illegal immigrants, or how they're not assimilating good enough?

Edited July 25, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

It's the hardest thing in the world.  "Love thy neighbor" is a commandment.  8+ billion people are our neighbor.   

At the same time, we've got what's called a "civilization" here, complete with a "society", an "economy", and many "institutions", all of which provide a "quality of life".  The more neighbors that show up, the more stress is added to all of them.  Human history is a revolving loop of the same thing over and over again.   Some of the repeating history involves migrating populations.  When small amounts of migrating populations show up, the larger population absorbs them.  When too many show up, or there's dysfunction in the existing population's rules or culture or practice or resource allocation, then other things happen. History is full of instances of migrating populations displacing/eliminating/absorbing the populations they migrate into.

They tell us a lot of humans have a tiny amount of Neanderthal DNA.  If the survival of the species is winning, then Homo Sapiens won, Neanderthals lost.

The Indo-European migrations from 4-1000 BCE , from north of the Black Sea into Europe, absorbed so many of the local populations that a crapton of the languages in Europe and South Asia have IndoEuropean roots.

Germanic and Slavic tribes spreading across Europe from 300-700 often settled in Roman territories, and are arguably one of the bigger reasons the Western Roman Empire fell.

Arab armies expanding across the Middle East, North Africa, and into Europe around 7-800 often absorbed local populations.  And it's pretty dang easy to see the cultural impact today.

Mongol Conquests in 13th-14th centuries.  Genghis Khan and successors.  Across Asia into Europe.  Lots of folks got swallowed up into the Mongol fold. 

European colonization of the Americas.  Spain, Portugal, Britain, and France won.  Native and indigenous peoples lost.  Folks who opine about the goodness or badness of things, often focus on this one.  Few of them seem to be informed about how "Hispanic" folks are basically the product of Spanish and Portuguese colonization all but utterly destroying all the indigenous peoples and culture.  Lots of fun DNA studies.  My buddy with roots in Mexico tells all about how much Incan DNA she has.  You can't find Incans any more. 

@smac97 asks for non-political thoughts.  This is my best attempt:

I like my nation, it's constitution, it's noble and great institutions.  They're all part of why we're so dang prosperous, and why so many folks want to go from where they are, to where we are.   I like my culture, and my standard of living.

Love thy neighbor.  2nd great commandment.  Does that mean we are doing wrong when we worry about the impact of too many illegal immigrants, or how they're not assimilating good enough?

What about the thousands upon thousands that died in the worst time of Covid? Could that have released openings for migrants to fill the space?

[smac97]

14 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Quote

Today on Breitbart: Utah in Uproar as Mormon Church Pulls in Thousands of Migrants

This seems like little more than clickbait and yellow journalism.

Perhaps so.  Still, the commentary about the Church piqued my interest, if for no other reason than to evaluate the Church's position for myself.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Analytics]

I march to the beat of my own drum too, and on this issue I think the Church is spot on.

Edited July 25, 2024 by Analytics

[LoudmouthMormon]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

What about the thousands upon thousands that died in the worst time of Covid? Could that have released openings for migrants to fill the space?

Well, maybe a million US citizens have died of COVID.  While illegal immigration (or "undocumented workers" if you prefer that term instead) are upwards of 11 million, with millions more every year, depending on who you ask.  Figuring out the exact number seems to be neigh impossible, because everyone's got a bias and a political spin.  And we don't do politics here.   But as an example that's sticking with the OP and relevant news, Colorado law makes it illegal for local authorities to demand someone disclose their immigration status.  It's illegal to even ask the question.

 

Edited July 25, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

56 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

They tell us a lot of humans have a tiny amount of Neanderthal DNA.  If the survival of the species is winning, then Homo Sapiens won, Neanderthals lost.

The Indo-European migrations from 4-1000 BCE , from north of the Black Sea into Europe, absorbed so many of the local populations that a crapton of the languages in Europe and South Asia have IndoEuropean roots.

Germanic and Slavic tribes spreading across Europe from 300-700 often settled in Roman territories, and are arguably one of the bigger reasons the Western Roman Empire fell.

Arab armies expanding across the Middle East, North Africa, and into Europe around 7-800 often absorbed local populations.  And it's pretty dang easy to see the cultural impact today.

Mongol Conquests in 13th-14th centuries.  Genghis Khan and successors.  Across Asia into Europe.  Lots of folks got swallowed up into the Mongol fold. 

European colonization of the Americas.  Spain, Portugal, Britain, and France won.  Native and indigenous peoples lost.  Folks who opine about the goodness or badness of things, often focus on this one.  Few of them seem to be informed about how "Hispanic" folks are basically the product of Spanish and Portuguese colonization all but utterly destroying all the indigenous peoples and culture.  Lots of fun DNA studies.  My buddy with roots in Mexico tells all about how much Incan DNA she has.  You can't find Incans any more.    Folks talk loud and long about the tragedies of the Native Americans during our colonial westward expansion and Manifest Destiny.  Then they show up on an actual real Indian reservation and get to know a few places and people, and learn the folks living there worry about preserving the ways of their fathers.  It gets awkward when "the ways of their fathers" include Christianity.

Do you realize how incredibly racist it is to compare ethnic groups mixing to species extinction? This is putting “Great Replacement” into a pretty box and hoping no one looks at it too closely.

58 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Does that mean we are doing wrong when we worry about the impact of too many illegal immigrants, or how they're not assimilating good enough?

The “they’re not assimilating good enough” take has been around for centuries now. It was hurled at my ancestors who came here in the 1700s and 1800s and early 1900s and it was probably hurled at yours. Somehow I am not speaking German or Swedish and I am not identifying as Scottish in preference to being a citizen of the United States. Go figure. They were wrong about how my ancestors were integrating.

But this time……this time it is correct? I doubt it.

[LoudmouthMormon]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Do you realize how incredibly racist it is to compare ethnic groups mixing to species extinction? This is putting “Great Replacement” into a pretty box and hoping no one looks at it too closely.

Pretty crappy criticism there, Nehor.  I didn't provide a list of "ethnic groups mixing", I provided a list of migrating populations who more or less eliminated the cultural distinctiveness of the existing population.  Culture, language, religion, sometimes even the genetics.    

 

Quote

The “they’re not assimilating good enough” take has been around for centuries now. It was hurled at my ancestors who came here in the 1700s and 1800s and early 1900s and it was probably hurled at yours. Somehow I am not speaking German or Swedish and I am not identifying as Scottish in preference to being a citizen of the United States. Go figure. They were wrong about how my ancestors were integrating.

But this time……this time it is correct? I doubt it.

Did you even read my post?  You're speaking a language with Indo-European roots.  You wouldn't be, if the Indo-Europeans hadn't swept down from north of the Black Sea and across Europe, eliminating languages and cultures in their wake.

If you're interested in the impact migrating populations have had on existing populations across history, google is your friend.  So are any of the AI tools.   If you're interested in politically-charged divisiveness and making sure the other side's signal doesn't get boosted, maybe set that aside and try to accommodate Smac's request (and the forum's demand) to keep politics out of it?

Edited July 25, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

It is unusual to see The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being characterized as supporting "left-wing" policies.  I think the Church genuinely marches to the beat of its own moral/ideological drum.  Those who march to the beat of a politically-partisan drum end up privileging the ideology of a political party over all other considerations.  Put another way, the Church is not "{supporting} left-wing immigration policies" (as in conforming to politically-driven expectations and ideologies), but is instead charting its own ideological course.

You do realize that political ideologies are all just a bunch of people who agree on some things. Emphasizing that this specific case is really just a massive coincidence is silly.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Pretty crappy criticism there, Nehor.  I didn't provide a list of "ethnic groups mixing", I provided a list of migrating populations who more or less eliminated the cultural distinctiveness of the existing population.  Culture, language, religion, sometimes even the genetics.

 

EVEN GENETICS? Bring back anti-miscegenation laws immediately!!!!!!!

And also this isn’t happening and is literally the “great replacement” theory.

5 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Did you even read my post?  You're speaking a language with Indo-European roots.  You wouldn't be, if the Indo-Europeans hadn't swept down from north of the Black Sea and across Europe, eliminating languages and cultures in their wake.

If you're interested in the impact migrating populations have had on existing populations across history, google is your friend.  So are any of the AI tools.   If you're interested in politically-charged divisiveness and making sure the other side's signal doesn't get boosted, maybe set that aside and try to accommodate Smac's request (and the forum's demand) to keep politics out of it?

And migrants entering the United States are somehow the equivalent of the Mongol hordes and are going to displace our beautiful pure culture? Run! They are coming to steal our women and rape our horses!

I am not engaging in politics. i am saying you are wrong and falling for hysteria. It is not even new hysteria. It is cliched hysteria that has been around since time immemorial. Immigrants are not conquering armies.

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Well, maybe a million US citizens have died of COVID.  While illegal immigration (or "undocumented workers" if you prefer that term instead) are upwards of 11 million, with millions more every year, depending on who you ask.  Figuring out the exact number seems to be neigh impossible, because everyone's got a bias and a political spin.  And we don't do politics here.   But as an example that's sticking with the OP and relevant news, Colorado law makes it illegal for local authorities to demand someone disclose their immigration status.  It's illegal to even ask the question.

Global population isn’t an unrelated topic...

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Immigrants are not conquering armies.

Can I reference this when I am called a "white colonizer"? 😉

An Aside: This is what we were told would happen if the Gentiles (referring mainly to western European settlers and their descendants) rejected the Gospel. Why would the Church stand in the way of prophecy?

Bienvendios Hermanos- les recomiendo un libro fantastico!

[rodheadlee]

Does anybody have any solutions instead of throwing barbs at each other? Assimilating 10 million people into the United States when we already have 650,000 homeless is a tough thing to do.

I sort of had an idea where the Army Corps engineer would pick a spot that has water and open land if there is such a spot left in the United States and build a new city and invite all these people to come and build their own City. It's kind of a pipe dream but 10 million people is a lot of people. I sort of had a spot picked out in Oklahoma after some river between a couple of Indian reservations.

[SkyRock]

I have long felt that we should not importing a single soul to America as long as we are not taking care of those already here first.   It is like the talk where the woman in London organized a huge charity drive for people in the former Yugoslavia.  When she got back, she felt the strong response from the Lord, "That was good, but what about the people across the street."

We are draining some of the best from these countries.   Ghana has less doctors than London has doctors from Ghana.  I know many great immigrants but worry that their home countries have been weakened by so many leaving. 

The church started discreetly baptizing illegals decades ago (no matter that "obeying the law" idea) and then having some serve as missionaries and go through the temple 40 years ago.   This first came to light when an illegal was arrested trying to fly to his mission after 9/11.  

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Does anybody have any solutions instead of throwing barbs at each other? Assimilating 10 million people into the United States when we already have 650,000 homeless is a tough thing to do.

I sort of had an idea where the Army Corps engineer would pick a spot that has water and open land if there is such a spot left in the United States and build a new city and invite all these people to come and build their own City. It's kind of a pipe dream but 10 million people is a lot of people. I sort of had a spot picked out in Oklahoma after some river between a couple of Indian reservations.

Sure, immigrants are a net benefit to society beyond the costs accrued in assisting them. More immigrants means more economic growth.

Immigrants do not show up and immediately become unemployed homeless people.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, SkyRock said:

I have long felt that we should not importing a single soul to America as long as we are not taking care of those already here first.   It is like the talk where the woman in London organized a huge charity drive for people in the former Yugoslavia.  When she got back, she felt the strong response from the Lord, "That was good, but what about the people across the street."

We are draining some of the best from these countries.   Ghana has less doctors than London has doctors from Ghana.  I know many great immigrants but worry that their home countries have been weakened by so many leaving. 

The church started discreetly baptizing illegals decades ago (no matter that "obeying the law" idea) and then having some serve as missionaries and go through the temple 40 years ago.   This first came to light when an illegal was arrested trying to fly to his mission after 9/11.  

Without undocumented immigrants the US economy would be in dire straits. When Florida was passing draconian immigration legislation many undocumented immigrants started to flee the state. It is having a catastrophic effect on the economy. Cutting off all immigration until we are a utopia will turn us into a dystopia.

You want the church to withhold baptism to those who violate immigration law? Yeah, that is not happening.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Can I reference this when I am called a "white colonizer"? 😉

An Aside: This is what we were told would happen if the Gentiles (referring mainly to western European settlers and their descendants) rejected the Gospel. Why would the Church stand in the way of prophecy?

Bienvendios Hermanos- les recomiendo un libro fantastico!

Current Immigrants aren’t mass murdering the preexisting locals or turning us into colonies for the glory of their original nation so it is not really the same. Also who is calling you a white colonizer? And if they are WHAT ARE YOU DOING?????

And yeah, there is Book of Mormon prophecy. The prophesied punishment of the Gentiles and there shall be “none to deliver”.

[Rain]

7 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Does anybody have any solutions instead of throwing barbs at each other? Assimilating 10 million people into the United States when we already have 650,000 homeless is a tough thing to do.

I sort of had an idea where the Army Corps engineer would pick a spot that has water and open land if there is such a spot left in the United States and build a new city and invite all these people to come and build their own City. It's kind of a pipe dream but 10 million people is a lot of people. I sort of had a spot picked out in Oklahoma after some river between a couple of Indian reservations.

It's a tough thing to figure out.  It's complicated.  Back in 2018 I had to really figure out where I stood on it all because the organization I was with was dealing with it in a big way. 

I can't tell you how to deal with all the country policies, but one thing was clear to me: these are God's children.  The stranger at the door.  Country lines do not matter in God's eyes.  Was I going to feed and clothe the stranger at the door? Take care of the wounded man like the Samaritan did. Or was I going to shut my door and walk on by?

Years ago when I went to Israel I felt the strongest guidance to get a widow's mite. It is now framed and hangs by my front door, reminding me to let the stranger in. 

Funny enough, the direction I got from God is the same direction the church goes - a non-political stance that takes care of the man by the way side. 

I can't do anything about borders. I cannot stop war and poverty. I cannot save all the starfish on a beach.  But I can help this one starfish, that one man hurt by thieves, this one stranger at my door.

[LoudmouthMormon]

9 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Does anybody have any solutions instead of throwing barbs at each other? Assimilating 10 million people into the United States when we already have 650,000 homeless is a tough thing to do.

It's impossible to answer this without delving into politics, since any solution must be implemented by the government.  But perhaps the BanHammer might be stayed if I say something pretty much everyone can agree with:

[politics on]

It would be nice if the US could fix it's immigration processes and laws into something that served the interests of both the nation and the immigrants.

I've been paying attention since the '80's.  Politicians have been using immigration issues as platforms to gain votes, and clubs to be used against one's political opponents.   As I read into the history, the issues of a porous Southern border is basically a consequence of how the Mexican war ended in 1848.   The US forked over money and took on debt for CA/NV/UT/AZ/NM/CO/WY, the Rio Grande is the border between Texas and Mexico, and we all agree to stop killing each other.   Sort of a barely-discussed footnote was "who's gonna fill all that empty space and do the farming and stuff?".  The not-really-overthought answer was "oh, I'm sure there'll be migrant labor and some resettlement as the norm."   It has been in everybody's best interest to get that last afterthought figured out better.  But it has been in all the politician's best interests to keep the matter unresolved, so they can win votes and beat up their opponents. 

[/politics off]

 

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Sure, immigrants are a net benefit to society beyond the costs accrued in assisting them. More immigrants means more economic growth.
Immigrants do not show up and immediately become unemployed homeless people.

When they immigrate and assimilate, Nehor's claim is absolutely, unassailably true.  Immigration and assimilation have been the foundation of our whole dang country, and most of the reason for our greatness.   Folks show up for a better life, better jobs.  The word is Opportunity.  We got it, right here in this country.  But the assimilation piece is crucial.  

So, as my answer to @rodheadlee's good question, I'd propose massive voter upheaval that demands a bipartisan fix to immigration.  The nonserious must be voted out.   A fix looks like strong high walls, and broad gates.   The walls stem the tide of human and drug trafficking, and throws up a barrier to nonstate actors infiltrating for nefarious reasons.   The broad gates control numbers and quality.  Numbers, to ensure our systems don't get overloaded, like we're seeing in the OP links.   Quality, to ensure we get all of Nehor's "net benefit" and "economic growth" people.  Speaking English is a plus.  Proving existing resources is a plus.  Having a job lined up is a plus.  Education is a plus.  Families (proven by genetics tests) with children, traveling together is a plus.  Having family already in the states is a plus.  Existing criminal record, terror watch list folks, coyotes transporting drugs or children like cattle - all minuses.   The teeming shores of huddled masses fleeing horrible things with only the clothes on their back?  We can take N every year.  The rest stay in their countries of origin. 

 

[Analytics]

16 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

If you're interested in the impact migrating populations have had on existing populations across history, google is your friend. 

According to DNA tests, 75% of my personal ancestry is an illustration of the history of Great Britain. In 43 A.D., the Roman Empire invaded Britain, displacing and enslaving the native populations. People had lived on the island for thousands of years, but this is when actual history started there. The Romans were only interested in the lowlands in the southeast side of the island, because that is where they could grow crops to help feed the empire. For 450 years, this was a solid part of Rome. They built engineering marvels, wore togas, and spoke Latin.

Then Rome fell, and the Romans who lived in Britain suffered an unimaginable apocalyptic catastrophe that wiped them out. Not too long after that, there was a massive invasion of Saxons, Angles, and Jutes. These people all brought Old English to the island, and had a general kinship with each other (in contrast, the native Britons who were pushed to Wales and Scotland were distinct others). After a few centuries, the anglo-saxons became Christians, which caused them to be a little calmer and a little more aware of things like intrinsic human dignity, property rights, getting along with others. It also brought reading and writing back to the island. This led to some relative prosperity, which soon made them huge targets for invasions by the vikings, starting in the year 794. There were more or less under regular siege from vikings for the next 300 years, until a french duke known as William the Conquerer decided to invade in 1066. William and his French buddies went after England in a huge, brutal, organized way, and for the next few hundred years the ruling class of England spoke French while the peasants spoke English.

The French from the ruling class seeped into the English of the common classes, resulting in the language morphing from Old English to Middle English. Then the black death, the renaissance, the hundred years war (which caused England to be independent of France for the first time in 400 years), and the enlightenment.  In the middle of that, pilgrims started to leave Britain in droves and displacing the native Americans.

That’s the narrative as it is in my head. And according to my DNA, I’m mainly a descendent of pilgrims and early British converts to Mormonism, who were descendants of Anglo-Saxon invaders, viking invaders, and the native Britons who may have invaded the island against the Kelts in pre-history.

The one group that invaded England of whom I am apparently not a biological descendent are the Romans. And it was the Romans who wanted to protect their claim on England with a wall. Hadrian’s Wall was a big wall. It was a great wall. It was a beautiful wall. Despite that, it didn’t stop history from rolling forward.

[rpn]

Another part of the different way Utah does stuff.    The idea that something awful is happening in playing the Good Samaritan ought to be sufficient for church members to quite buying the far right (or at least Breitbart) inferences that people who Colorado should not be sending to Utah without government acceptance  should also starve and freeze and lie around doing nothing (even though there is frequently important work to be done and not enough people to do it) and otherwise be punished so as to discourage.

Does anyone think that being unkind and cruel to those who came here will do anything to resolve our immigration and border failures?

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

It's impossible to answer this without delving into politics, since any solution must be implemented by the government.  But perhaps the BanHammer might be stayed if I say something pretty much everyone can agree with:

[politics on]

It would be nice if the US could fix it's immigration processes and laws into something that served the interests of both the nation and the immigrants.

I've been paying attention since the '80's.  Politicians have been using immigration issues as platforms to gain votes, and clubs to be used against one's political opponents.   As I read into the history, the issues of a porous Southern border is basically a consequence of how the Mexican war ended in 1848.   The US forked over money and took on debt for CA/NV/UT/AZ/NM/CO/WY, the Rio Grande is the border between Texas and Mexico, and we all agree to stop killing each other.   Sort of a barely-discussed footnote was "who's gonna fill all that empty space and do the farming and stuff?".  The not-really-overthought answer was "oh, I'm sure there'll be migrant labor and some resettlement as the norm."   It has been in everybody's best interest to get that last afterthought figured out better.  But it has been in all the politician's best interests to keep the matter unresolved, so they can win votes and beat up their opponents. 

[/politics off]

 

When they immigrate and assimilate, Nehor's claim is absolutely, unassailably true.  Immigration and assimilation have been the foundation of our whole dang country, and most of the reason for our greatness.   Folks show up for a better life, better jobs.  The word is Opportunity.  We got it, right here in this country.  But the assimilation piece is crucial.  

So, as my answer to @rodheadlee's good question, I'd propose massive voter upheaval that demands a bipartisan fix to immigration.  The nonserious must be voted out.   A fix looks like strong high walls, and broad gates.   The walls stem the tide of human and drug trafficking, and throws up a barrier to nonstate actors infiltrating for nefarious reasons.   The broad gates control numbers and quality.  Numbers, to ensure our systems don't get overloaded, like we're seeing in the OP links.   Quality, to ensure we get all of Nehor's "net benefit" and "economic growth" people.  Speaking English is a plus.  Proving existing resources is a plus.  Having a job lined up is a plus.  Education is a plus.  Families (proven by genetics tests) with children, traveling together is a plus.  Having family already in the states is a plus.  Existing criminal record, terror watch list folks, coyotes transporting drugs or children like cattle - all minuses.   The teeming shores of huddled masses fleeing horrible things with only the clothes on their back?  We can take N every year.  The rest stay in their countries of origin. 

 

To my bold in your quote, hum....there was a bipartisan fix to immigration which the former president has nixed! 

I have a son in law who is a Mexican immigrant brought over by his father along with his sister and brother, when just out of high school. He's never been convicted of a crime and held the same job with his craft. We've worked with an immigration attorney and had gotten cold feet in the process of sending him back to the Mexican consulate for fear that he might be made to stay there for maybe 10 years. He has been married to my daughter for 20 years and they have two sons.

The immigration attorney recently sent an email to my daughter that my son in law may be able to go through the process w/o having to go back to Mexico and he will be able to apply in the middle of August, fingers crossed. It's a bill put forth by Biden, and seems to be a way to finally do something about immigration as well. Sorry for the politics, I'm just saying there was something that would have helped and was planned and put forth by both parties who agreed upon it, but that was shot down by you know who. Let me know if you don't know the you know who.

I've always respected the church's stance, grateful too. The you know who spouts mass deportation that will occur if you know who makes office. Not sure how that could affect the new bill that will help my daughter and her family, hoping it won't. 

ETA: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/06/18/fact-sheet-president-biden-announces-new-actions-to-keep-families-together/#:~:text=In order to be eligible,the U.S. for 23 years.

Edited July 26, 2024 by Tacenda

[Danzo]

My wife was an illegal alien when she was called to preach the gospel to the people in Utah.

Looks like some of them listened to the message.