CS Lewis

[MustardSeed]

On Sunday in our ward, the high councilman speaking, pulled out his CS Lewis book and read from it during his talk.
Of course, I understand that has great teaching points. I couldn’t help but think however any other non-sanctioned book was read from the pulpit there might be a problem.

Where when and why did Lewis become so  worthy in our sacrament meetings, and our Sunday lessons?

Edited May 23, 2024 by MustardSeed

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

On Sunday in our ward, the high councilman speaking, pulled out his CS Lewis book and read from it during his talk.
Of course, I understand that has great teaching points. I couldn’t help but think however any other non-sanctioned book was read from the pulpit there might be a problem.

Where when and why did Lewis become so  worthy in our sacrament meetings, and our Sunday lessons?

Maybe it's because he's quoted by Apostles so often in GC?  It seems like when something is done in GC then everyone feels like it's been approved for all members.

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Where when and why did Lewis become so  worthy in our sacrament meetings, and our Sunday lessons?

I've never heard CS Lewis quoted in church, but I'm certainly not opposed.  Plenty of overlap between his brand of Christianity and ours.  

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I couldn’t help but think however any other non-sanctioned book was read from the pulpit there might be a problem.

I've lost count of all the times folks read from non-sanctioned sources in General Conference all the way to sacrament meeting talks and spiritual thoughts shared in presidency meetings.   Folks pull from cultural references to highlight gospel principles all the time.  

(For that matter, what's a "non-sanctioned book"?  Is there a list somewhere?)

[MustardSeed]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Maybe it's because he's quoted by Apostles so often in GC?  It seems like when something is done in GC then everyone feels like it's been approved for all members.

Yes why do they do this? As a teacher I’ve been instructed many times to restrict my resources to sanctioned materials.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Yes why do they do this? As a teacher I’ve been instructed many times to restrict my resources to sanctioned materials.

I know when we used to do the prophets lesson manuals we were told not to add anything to the lessons, even other church stuff.  I remember that because they were so adamant about it. I don't remember ever being told to stick to sanctioned stuff at other times but I probably just don't remember.  It sounds like something that would happen.  

Maybe people assume CS Lewis is a sanctioned source?  Do we have a list anywhere of what actually is considered a sanctioned?

I saw that the Deseret News did an article on CS Lewis last year and I thought this was interested:

"While Lewis has been quoted in church publications over 100 times, he’s been quoted more than 30 times in general conference. Lewis has been the most commonly quoted non-Latter-day Saint during general conference, according to Deseret News"

Maybe we read quotes from him so often that everyone thinks he's approved, even leaders.  Or maybe he actually is approved.    

[The Nehor]

I thought Shakespeare was the most quoted non-member.

[LoudmouthMormon]

35 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

As a teacher I’ve been instructed many times to restrict my resources to sanctioned materials.

Interesting backstory detected!!!!

I've had three types of teachers who get such instructions.  The first type are the best and most interesting teachers, crashing into oversensitive students and helicopter parents.    The second type are, let's say, still growing in gospel understanding, and keep sayin' stuff that flat out isn't true, teaching from whatever movie they saw last week.  The third type I've only met once, my primary teacher who had some fringey ideas.  He taught us the third part that followed Lucifer got bodies, so one out of every three people you meet is a demon.  He had a guest helper teacher the following Sunday, then we had a new teacher.  He eventually packed up his family and moved to Missouri to await the millennium.  Dude belongs in his own category.

I've read enough of your posts to know you ain't the 2nd type, and I think we all would have picked up on it by now if you were the 3rd type.  So that leaves one option.

So, tell us @MustardSeed.  Who'd ya tick off?  

(Gotta go watch Dead Poets Society again now.)

Edited May 23, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Devobah]

Some of C.S. Lewis's quotes are just fascinating, and he doesn't try to hide the symbolism. Lewis was Church of England and Anglican, but held many Orthodox beliefs (such as theosis and apotheosis). Though his quotes could be misconstrued as less than what we think, this quote from Lewis's book Mere Christianity, does offer some interest. It's one that I heard a bit, though I have never read his book:

“He came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men the kind of life He has – by what I call ‘good infection.’ Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The whole purpose of becoming a Christian is simply nothing else”

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.”

It's a fascinating quote, and one that is definitely both orthodox and unorthodox. Catholic and Orthodox belief talk of theosis as more of a unity with God, as that is what is usually what is meant when they say "partakers in the divine nature." It's why they emphasize the Eucharist and the good works as a lifelong sanctification. More mainline protestant beliefs just believe that we will be more like the angels, and therefore not being worthy of worship. It's interesting how far people decide to move away from this, as some might see this quote as more blasphemous than not if you didn't know it was from C.S. Lewis.

[Malc]

As an active member, and as an inactive but (somewhat) believing member, and as a heretic/apostate, I've greatly enjoyed Lewis' scifi and religious writing. He has a keen eye for the failings of the human condition - particularly hypocrisy.

I especially like The Screwtape Letters, apart from the fact that I cringe as I recognise myself in Wormwoods descriptions of the humans he comes across.

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I couldn’t help but think however any other non-sanctioned book was read from the pulpit there might be a problem.

I suppose there are books which, if referenced, would likely end up being a net negative. I mean, even if you really did find a positive, uplifting article in Playboy, you probably wouldn't want to mention that as being the source.

As a general rule though, I would think the appellation to 'seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom' would cover most non-canonical references that people may want to use as part of their messages - whether that be CS Lewis, Lewis Carroll, or even Star Wars (which I've probably heard more frequently at the ward level than the other two combined).

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I thought Shakespeare was the most quoted non-member.

This is what the DN said about it-

Since 1971, Lewis has been the most quoted non-Mormon in LDS general conference talks, with 31 references, compared to 20 for Shakespeare.

[achupallas]

Don't you know . . . C S Lewis is the 13th apostle!

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

don't remember ever being told to stick to sanctioned stuff

As a ward librarian, we were limited to Church distribution for books, manuals, pictures, music and videos except for a dictionary and globe., iirc.

I don’t have any of the old Primary manuals left, but my memory was we were instructed to restrict our materials to CD stuff (at least in the 80s or 90s when I was teaching)….which made no sense to me because DeseretBook published and sold tons of Primary aids.

The manuals for sure said that no additional books were necessary outside the manual and scriptures to teach so that teachers would not feel the need to spend money when they couldn’t afford to.

Edited May 23, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I thought Shakespeare was the most quoted non-member.

You are behind the times.

[JAHS]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

On Sunday in our ward, the high councilman speaking, pulled out his CS Lewis book and read from it during his talk.
Of course, I understand that has great teaching points. I couldn’t help but think however any other non-sanctioned book was read from the pulpit there might be a problem.

Where when and why did Lewis become so  worthy in our sacrament meetings, and our Sunday lessons?

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Maybe it's because he's quoted by Apostles so often in GC?  It seems like when something is done in GC then everyone feels like it's been approved for all members.

Like crushing your water bottles. ♻️

[Damien the Leper]

CS Lewis is quite profound. He died a staunch Anglican and I hope he remains as such in the hereafter. The Jensen book that came out around 20 years ago does nothing to further the ill-informed rumor that he was somehow "almost Mormon". Lewis is worthy of quoting just as NT Wright. Several years ago, I attended a ward that a friend was a part of. He was speaking that day, and I went to show support. I had no idea what his sermon was about and can't remember what it was about now. But I do remember him quoting NT Wright several times. I haven't spoken to him in some time. Maybe I'll ask him about it.

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

On Sunday in our ward, the high councilman speaking, pulled out his CS Lewis book and read from it during his talk.
Of course, I understand that has great teaching points. I couldn’t help but think however any other non-sanctioned book was read from the pulpit there might be a problem.

Where when and why did Lewis become so  worthy in our sacrament meetings, and our Sunday lessons?

Talks are a little different than lessons, but I think the principle is to recognize and follow true principles wherever they can be found.  We are to seek words of wisdom out of the "best books".  I think CS Lewis fits into the category of words of wisdom from the "best books".

But even N.T. Wright was quoted in a recent conference (by Elder Gary E. Stevenson).  I'm hoping he'll get moved up the list.

I quoted from a Panda Express fortune cookie in one of my lessons in Elders Quorum recently.  (It said, "YOUR REWARD IS THE WALK, NOT THE DESTINATION").  Nobody complained about that.

Edited May 23, 2024 by InCognitus

[MustardSeed]

5 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Interesting backstory detected!!!!

Unfortunately I’m coming up blank on a story.  
All I have ever done at church is teach. Then again there’s not a ton else for women to do anyway so I guess that’s nothing revelatory.

I remember the first time I was asked to teach in my current area. I was 32 and assigned as Gospel doctrine teacher. The bishop called me in and told me he was assigning this to me, and warning me not to get a big head about it. We had just moved inand he didn’t know me well. Obviously there was history and probably a very interesting story there.
 

Having taught seminary, young women, primary, relief Society, Sunday school, the whole gambit I can say confidently that I have been told many times in regular old training sessions to only use LDS resources. I’m surprised that this isn’t more common? I wonder if it was just a thing in my stake for the past 20 years.

 

Incidentally, there’s a long period of time where in my my stake, musical, had to be hymns only.  None of this Mormon pop stuff.  
 

I’ve been purist in both categories, so I tend to notice anything on the outside of those limitations I’ve been instructed on.  
I do of course recognize that there is great material outside of LDS materials.😅

 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

s. I’m surprised that this isn’t more common?

It has happened to me a couple of times.  Back in 88 probably the Primary second counselor used the dirt mixed into sugar analogy to push the only church approved materials.  It was a bit much but she was a new convert and very intense for that lesson.  I could tell she was very nervous and trying to do good.  I was the other counselor and knew she felt out of her depth.  My guess is someone suggested it to her as she was pretty easygoing otherwise.  All three of us in the Presidency were….

Edited May 23, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

C.S. Lewis is popular partially due to his neutrality on the various sects of Christianity in his writings and his willingness to translate theological concepts into the vernacular.

Some of his stuff is good. Some is not so good. Mere Christianity has a fair number of bad arguments in it. Some can be excused by the era in which they were written. Some cannot.

Casting his as a cryptoMormon is pretty common but the thing is a lot of Christian denominations have done similar things thinking Lewis is aligned with them. That is just part of being really good at that neutrality thing.

One thing I have noticed is that any religious groups that really dislikes Lewis (as opposed to disagreeing with some points) are almost universally bad versions of Christianity. That is just my personal experience but I have never found it to be wrong so far.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

It has happened to me a couple of times.  Back in 88 probably the Primary second counselor used the dirt mixed into sugar analogy to push the only church approved materials.  It was a bit much but she was a new convert and very intense for that lesson.  I could tell she was very nervous and trying to do good.  I was the other counselor and knew she felt out of her depth.  My guess is someone suggested it to her as she was pretty easygoing otherwise.  All three of us in the Presidency were….

While I get why this is the counsel it usually just means that the bad information that gets smuggled into the lesson comes from our own folklore instead of someone else’s folklore. Not sure which is worse.

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

C.S. Lewis is popular partially due to his neutrality on the various sects of Christianity in his writings and his willingness to translate theological concepts into the vernacular.

Some of his stuff is good. Some is not so good. Mere Christianity has a fair number of bad arguments in it. Some can be excused by the era in which they were written. Some cannot.

Casting his as a cryptoMormon is pretty common but the thing is a lot of Christian denominations have done similar things thinking Lewis is aligned with them. That is just part of being really good at that neutrality thing.

One thing I have noticed is that any religious groups that really dislikes Lewis (as opposed to disagreeing with some points) are almost universally bad versions of Christianity. That is just my personal experience but I have never found it to be wrong so far.

It’s often felt to me like people feel validated in their beliefs when somebody famous overlaps in their beliefs.  As if famous people are the authority. 

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s often felt to me like people feel validated in their beliefs when somebody famous overlaps in their beliefs.  As if famous people are the authority. 

I think it is more in this case that someone understandable is saying something that resonates with their own beliefs. You can find such things in all kinds of venues but a lot of them are obscured from your average reader. C.S. Lewis knew how to communicate well in an inclusive way. Most of the time anyways. Looking at you Pilgrim’s Regress!

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

C.S. Lewis is popular partially due to his neutrality on the various sects of Christianity in his writings and his willingness to translate theological concepts into the vernacular.

Some of his stuff is good. Some is not so good. Mere Christianity has a fair number of bad arguments in it. Some can be excused by the era in which they were written. Some cannot.

Casting his as a cryptoMormon is pretty common but the thing is a lot of Christian denominations have done similar things thinking Lewis is aligned with them. That is just part of being really good at that neutrality thing.

One thing I have noticed is that any religious groups that really dislikes Lewis (as opposed to disagreeing with some points) are almost universally bad versions of Christianity. That is just my personal experience but I have never found it to be wrong so far.

OOO...which groups dislike Lewis??