Permit Denied for McKinney Temple

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

So, are we supposed to rank bigotry? Religious bigotry is not as bad as racial bigotry? Intersectionality for the win!

If it was an IKEA it would have been approved in a second.

[Duncan]

The Toronto Ontario Temple is actually in Brampton, which by car is around a 30 minute drive

[the narrator]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

So, are we supposed to rank bigotry? Religious bigotry is not as bad as racial bigotry? Intersectionality for the win!

Nope. I guess I just don't see the steeple demand to really be that essential to LDS worship, but I sure wish a desire to be a good neighbor was.

[the narrator]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

If it was an IKEA it would have been approved in a second.

I'm pretty sure that if IKEA wanted a 170 ft steeple, they would not want that as well.

Or am I just ignorant of everything going on: is it the temple that is being opposed, or it's steeple height and lighting?

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Let's not forget the London temple.   

Yes, located in Newchapel. I thought of it, but then forgot after listing the others!

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

Nope. I guess I just don't see the steeple demand to really be that essential to LDS worship, but I sure wish a desire to be a good neighbor was.

Is it essential? No. At least two current temples that I am aware of don't have spires. These are the Cardston Alberta and Laie Hawaii temples. But their heights, about 85 ft, are well in excess of the apparent maximum allowed in this case.

Good neighborship is desirable, but sometimes neighbors can be unreasonable. Must unreasonability always be endured? I believe the Church is doing what it should in order to overcome the unreasonability in this case.

The news as of 8/7/2024 is that the town council has denied the Church's request for a variance.

Quote

Conditional Use Permit Denied for the McKinney Texas Temple

In a unanimous vote cast last night, the Fairview Town Council denied the Church's application for a conditional use permit to build the McKinney Texas Temple at the proposed height and dimensions. The decision came at the conclusion of a packed four-hour meeting where town officials heard public comment that focused largely around the temple's size. Church representatives may reapply with a new proposal, but a Church spokesperson said, "At this point, we are keeping our options open."

In my humble opinion, the Church should build the temple somewhere else where it will be more willingly accepted.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

I'm pretty sure that if IKEA wanted a 170 ft steeple, they would not want that as well.

I'm sure you're right. Before the pandemic started, they were going to build an Ikea not far from my house here in England. I was pleased, since I love Ikea, but the whole pandemic thing messed up the plans, and now we're out of luck. My wife, who is not a fan of Ikea, was happy though.

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

Or am I just ignorant of everything going on: is it the temple that is being opposed, or it's steeple height and lighting?

Not being there myself, I would have to rely on others' of more local persuasion to gauge that. 

[the narrator]

8 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

In my humble opinion, the Church should build the temple somewhere else where it will be more willingly accepted.

Or just not have a steeple? I served in Laie for a couple months and loved the design of that temple, with its four friezes surrounding the top depicting the four standard works. It, like the Cardston and Mesa temples, was built with the surrounding environment in mind to work with it rather than go against it. I think that would be a wise approach when wishing to build temples among existing neighborhoods and areas.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, the narrator said:

I'm pretty sure that if IKEA wanted a 170 ft steeple, they would not want that as well.

Or am I just ignorant of everything going on: is it the temple that is being opposed, or it's steeple height and lighting?

In my opinion (having lived somewhere where a temple was strongly opposed), it's the temple being opposed using the justification of the steeple and lighting.  

[Calm]

4 hours ago, the narrator said:

sure wish a desire to be a good neighbor was.

I think it is, but views can vary on what that means.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

Or just not have a steeple? I served in Laie for a couple months and loved the design of that temple, with its four friezes surrounding the top depicting the four standard works. It, like the Cardston and Mesa temples, was built with the surrounding environment in mind to work with it rather than go against it. I think that would be a wise approach when wishing to build temples among existing neighborhoods and areas.

I hear you, but both Laie and Cardston's heights, without a spire, is about 85 ft. Unless I'm mistaken that's taller than the town allows?  Ah, yes, I hadn't recalled that Mesa is also spireless. 

[sheilauk]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Let's not forget the London temple.   

Also in England - the Preston temple is 10 miles away in Chorley and the proposed Birmingham temple is 8 miles away in Sutton Coldfield.  The Preston temple isn’t as tall a spire as the proposed McKinney one but it sits on top of a pretty high hill and can be seen for miles around!  It’s quite a feature and a landmark now, especially for the nearby freeway.  I have found that, for the most part, whatever the feelings before something is built, it doesn’t take long for people to accept it and even object just as strenuously when it’s threatened with removal! 

[the narrator]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

In my opinion (having lived somewhere where a temple was strongly opposed), it's the temple being opposed using the justification of the steeple and lighting.  

And if that is the case, then it's a different issue. (I remember as a child going to the Denver Temple open house and seeing all the protestors outside it).

 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I hear you, but both Laie and Cardston's heights, without a spire, is about 85 ft. Unless I'm mistaken that's taller than the town allows?  Ah, yes, I hadn't recalled that Mesa is also spireless. 

Another big thing is the size of the grounds separating the temple from the surrounding area. I don't know what's going on in Fairview and elsewhere, but having a surrounding area that separates the temples from other buildings and roads makes a big difference. I had never really thought of that before until I first saw the new Orem Utah Temple from the freeway. I don't know what it is. From the grounds facing it, it looks fine, but from the freeway it just sticks out and is such an eyesore--which is something I haven't felt before when seeing a temple.

And, to be honest, I don't understand why so many are being rushed and built as they are. There doesn't seem to be the demand, and, I think, the harsh reality is that they will be needed less over the coming decades. It feels like there is some Field of Dreams wishful thinking going on--similar to the excessive building of meeting houses in Central and South America in the 20th century that eventually had to be sold off and repurposed due to them not being filled as anticipated.

Edited August 8, 2024 by the narrator

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, the narrator said:

is such an eyesore--which is something I haven't felt before when

I wouldn’t call it an eyesore (billboards, junkyard, dead trees and abandoned houses are eyesores to me), just feels out of context to me.

[carbon dioxide]

It was not complicated.  Redesign the temple to fit the code of the area.   Perhaps design one that is completely underground. 

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, the narrator said:

And if that is the case, then it's a different issue. (I remember as a child going to the Denver Temple open house and seeing all the protestors outside it).

When the Billings Montana temple was being proposed, opposition was strong.  This was in the late 90s.  Lots of evangelicals doing everything they could to stop it.  Lots of "mormons are going to hell" type of stuff.  The opposition came from all over, including northern wyoming (which was only about 50 miles away from Billings).  On the day of the groundbreaking, there was a large group of anti's traveling from Wyoming to protest, but the weather turned so horrible that they couldn't come (so sad).

Now, the church is trying to build a temple in one of those Northern Wyoming towns.  Opposition is as strong there as ever, but interestingly, no one has publicly mentioned us Mormon's going to Hell that i've seen (though a church has trotted out the well loved Godmakers movie again, sponsored by some local businesses) or anything doctrinal at all.

Now, the vocal opposition is completely focused on lighting and the height of the spire. 

Handy that all the anti-latter day saints that were so opposed to a neighboring temple in a different state now have no doctrinal opposition with the temple in their own town.  Or maybe it's just that a concern over lights and spire height comes off more polite and less bigoted in a society that now has the ability to broadcast your prejudices across the world and save them forever.

 

[Peacefully]

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/fairview-texas-lds-church-temple-proposal/287-0c59ab71-879a-430e-9b46-fefccd72c7a8
 

I hope this is not behind a paywall for everyone. I can definitely see both sides. I lived in a rural community with nice views that became obstructed by a commercial build. So I feel for the couple who would have the temple in their direct line of site, but the land isn’t theirs just like the land where the commercial building was built wasn’t mine. However, if the whole town decides that isn’t the aesthetic they want for their town, then they should have that right as long as they are consistent, imo. The church has the right to build what they want on the land within the town zoning laws, I would think. 

[Peacefully]

Meanwhile, in more positive news, the Ft. Worth temple (actually in Burleson) is coming along nicely:) 

[the narrator]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

When the Billings Montana temple was being proposed, opposition was strong.  This was in the late 90s.  Lots of evangelicals doing everything they could to stop it.  Lots of "mormons are going to hell" type of stuff.  The opposition came from all over, including northern wyoming (which was only about 50 miles away from Billings).  On the day of the groundbreaking, there was a large group of anti's traveling from Wyoming to protest, but the weather turned so horrible that they couldn't come (so sad).

Now, the church is trying to build a temple in one of those Northern Wyoming towns.  Opposition is as strong there as ever, but interestingly, no one has publicly mentioned us Mormon's going to Hell that i've seen (though a church has trotted out the well loved Godmakers movie again, sponsored by some local businesses) or anything doctrinal at all.

Now, the vocal opposition is completely focused on lighting and the height of the spire. 

Handy that all the anti-latter day saints that were so opposed to a neighboring temple in a different state now have no doctrinal opposition with the temple in their own town.  Or maybe it's just that a concern over lights and spire height comes off more polite and less bigoted in a society that now has the ability to broadcast your prejudices across the world and save them forever.

 

Similar frustration is happening in (very Mormon) Midway, Utah, particularly with the Church wanting to sidestep their new dark sky zoning laws. So it really may just be that, and I get it. It's sad now that I can barely see any stars in the night sky, and I get why people want to protect that.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Similar frustration is happening in (very Mormon) Midway, Utah, particularly with the Church wanting to sidestep their new dark sky zoning laws. So it really may just be that, and I get it. It's sad now that I can barely see any stars in the night sky, and I get why people want to protect that.

If the proposed temple site in the northern wyoming town wasn't less than a mile (as the crow flies) from a mega walmart and two main business strips (including a really big rodeo arena that is quite famous), I'd probably be more understanding.  

Some of the angst is just ignorance though.  Online some guy was putting up pictures of the Idaho Falls temple at night (over 90,000 square feet) and telling people that's what this temple was going to look like at night (10,000 square feet).  People love a good battle against "the man".

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Similar frustration is happening in (very Mormon) Midway, Utah, particularly with the Church wanting to sidestep their new dark sky zoning laws. So it really may just be that, and I get it. It's sad now that I can barely see any stars in the night sky, and I get why people want to protect that.

I do think the church should be a good neighbor.  If the city is truly attempting to limit light pollution then the church needs to accommodate that in their buildings.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

Similar frustration is happening in (very Mormon) Midway, Utah, particularly with the Church wanting to sidestep their new dark sky zoning laws. So it really may just be that, and I get it. It's sad now that I can barely see any stars in the night sky, and I get why people want to protect that.

I can appreciate that, too. We live in a village about 40 miles south of London, with the large town of Worthing and city of Brighton less than 10 miles away. The sky glow from these cities tends to drown out the sky. We can see bright stars, but fainter ones are not visible. The last time I remember seeing the Milky Way was about 30 years ago at a lake way out in the wilds of Washington state. 

 

[the narrator]

10 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The last time I remember seeing the Milky Way was about 30 years ago at a lake way out in the wilds of Washington state. 

30 years ago I could easily see the Milky Way right outside our house on the south end of the Salt Lake Valley. Tomorrow my wife and I are driving nearly 4 hours up the mountains to see it (along with the Perseid Meteor shower). Our cities need to either return to sodium-vapor lights or demand that lights both point downward and change non-white at late night (thankfully some cities are starting to do this. It's sad that my kids can't be awed by the glorious cosmos each night.

[Stargazer]

1 minute ago, the narrator said:

30 years ago I could easily see the Milky Way right outside our house on the south end of the Salt Lake Valley. Tomorrow my wife and I are driving nearly 4 hours up the mountains to see it (along with the Perseid Meteor shower). Our cities need to either return to sodium-vapor lights or demand that lights both point downward and change non-white at late night (thankfully some cities are starting to do this. It's sad that my kids can't be awed by the glorious cosmos each night.

  On the trip I mentioned, after the kids were bedded down for the night, my late wife and I went out to the floating dock on the lake, laid on our backs and watched the sky, talking "of many things: Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—Of cabbages—and kings—And why the sea is boiling hot—And whether pigs have wings.". It was beautiful. Meteorites burning up, satellites whizzing overhead, and that giant cloud of stars. A very precious memory!

 

[the narrator]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

  On the trip I mentioned, after the kids were bedded down for the night, my late wife and I went out to the floating dock on the lake, laid on our backs and watched the sky, talking "of many things: Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—Of cabbages—and kings—And why the sea is boiling hot—And whether pigs have wings.". It was beautiful. Meteorites burning up, satellites whizzing overhead, and that giant cloud of stars. A very precious memory!

 

Love it! I had a similar experience a year ago outside Yellowstone, laying in the back of my truck with my 12 yr old daughter and discussing all things life.