Under the banner of heaven

[Orthodox Christian]

Good morning. I have just watched this series and was wondering if a discussion thread on it exists here. I don't want to open a thread if it is ole ground. Thank you

[Calm]

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74497-des-news-article-re-under-the-banner-of-heaven-mini-series/

I think there are a couple

[Calm]

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74510-under-the-banner-of-heaven-ep-1/page/2/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74363-the-trailer-for-banner-of-heaven-has-dropped/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74502-under-the-banner-of-heaven-trailer/#comment-1210092091

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74547-banner-of-heaven-and-joseph-smith-assassination/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74498-desnews’s-hal-boyd-weighs-in-on-“under-the-banner-of-heaven”-series/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74570-church-history-in-early-1980’s/

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Thank you

[Tacenda]

How far are you into the series @Orthodox Christian?

[Orthodox Christian]

Hello there, i have watched it all. I know its a dramatisation but i found it very disturbing. 

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello there, i have watched it all. I know its a dramatisation but i found it very disturbing. 

It wasn’t that accurate in anything except for the setting, imo.

Reviews….and interviews with two people actually involved and knowledgeable about the events…

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/under-the-banner-of-heaven-fact-vs-fiction

I was living in Provo at the time and it is unfamiliar to me in many ways.  I never met a family like them.

Edited March 4, 2024 by Calm

[LoudmouthMormon]

47 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello there, i have watched it all. I know its a dramatisation but i found it very disturbing. 

Well of course you did.  The series was especially designed to disturb in several ways.  They made extensive use of that low-bass barely-audible background noise, so widely used in horror movies, to build suspense and instill the viewer with a sense of ominousness and impending danger.  

I only got about 3 episodes into the series, but I honestly started laughing at it's over-the-top use of this soundtrack element.  I've been in an awful lot of 1:1 bishop interviews in my life, I've brought up my share of difficult topics and received my share of advice and counsel.  And yet somehow I missed out on the hidden speakers rumbling it's deep bassy ominousness.

I'm genuinely curious - did you notice your emotional state was being manipulated in this way as you watched the episodes?   If not, I'd suggest you watch the series again.  Pay attention to the background music.  You might start laughing like I did.

 

Stuff I recognized:
- arguing about caffeinated drinks being against the WoW
- talking callings with each other, meeting new LDS folks.
- freaky weird families with bizarre stuff that makes no sense, antigovernment types that just seem to carry ominous background music around with them.  (I've met several, both in and out the church.)
- Large families with a very religious patriarch and matriarch running the show.
- Large family dysfunction 
- Senior missionary couples
- Service projects
- MMM, Joseph getting tarred and feathered, kicked out of Kirtland, Haun's Mill massacre
- CTR rings, references to Eagle scouts
- Relief society and food!
- The cop praying with his gun out before moving from cover.
- Baptismal interview, bishop's interview (but without the spooky background music)
- Bishop counseling psychological medications are ok. (but without the spooky background music, and they missed the part about competent medical advice.)
- The claim Porter Rockwell (Joseph's Avenging Angel) assassinated Gov Boggs on Joseph's order.
- I recognized many of the '80's attitudes towards women.  I saw a lot of that firsthand in my own family and neighborhood, as my totally a-religious father went about being the head of his house.  And he'd take me to the American Legion for hamburgers, where I'd listen to him drink beer with his military buddies and talk about women.  And they'd haul me to their friends' houses, where the men would drink beer and talk about women, and the women would play cards and smoke and bemoan their sorry existence as women in a man's world.   This was in Salt Lake City in the '70's and '80's.

Stuff I didn't recognize: 
- The constant working of religious talk into every day conversations
- Ominous secret hidden ominous-ness
- The ominous music accompanying bouts of religious import
- "LDS women are taught to be obedient, to serve their husband, to obey."
- Looking down on women for going to college
- Bishop's counsel to stop looking into the past. 
- Deep base background music, the same they use in horror movies or haunted houses.
- "I'm the priesthood holder, now it's settled and let's have nookie"
- Praying with fingers interlocked and elbows bent, with that deep bassey horror-movie sound in the background.
- I have never seen a group of male family members ganging up on a female in an argument.
- All the LDS women educating each other about their duty to support and obey their husbands.
- Did I mention the stupid low-bass background music that accompanied all the innocent stuff like meeting /w the bishop and socializing at the potluck and having family home evening?

Honestly, some of the things in this 2nd list had me howling in laughter.  I went and told my wife I was watching Banner and it said I'm the priesthood leader so that meant she needed to be quiet and accept my answer.  Then we were both laughing.  

Edited March 4, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Tacenda]

One of the brothers was played by Kurt Russell's son, I thought he did a good job acting. I liked one part the best and that is when the bishop is in his garage in his car, and breaks down crying when he was losing his faith. I went through the same thing, so it was a tender moment. 

I didn't think they portrayed LDS people very accurately. I thought they failed at this, even when they had former or current LDS giving advice I thought. Like former member Lindsay Hansen Park. Was hoping she would have done better at catching that. 

I was newly married in '84 and heard all about it on the news, but lacked knowing how horrible it truly was, had known it was bad, but didn't know the detailed horrific way they killed the mom and child. 

I think actions like this from members of the church and other religions, is where all should be careful in how they interpret their religion. Some people really go off the deep end when they insert their own thoughts and feelings in how things should be run that it's evil. Using God to harm others or making it okay. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

that is when the bishop is in his garage in his car, and breaks down crying when he was losing his faith.

I think you mean the detective.  I don’t remember him being a bishop.

[Calm]

From the FAIR interview of the actual American Fork chief of police involved:

Quote

Randy Johnson was the chief of police responsible for the murder investigation of Brenda and Erica Lafferty in 1984, in American Fork, Utah. “I cannot recognize any actual person that I knew or came to know, accurately depicted in the series. The series does not reflect the actual investigation that I oversaw. Nor does it reflect the attitudes, behaviors and conduct of me or any of my officers. It is clearly a work of fiction as indicated by the disclaimer. I affirm that to my knowledge neither I nor any of my officers ever lost our personal faith.”

He gave the interview to represent the family of Brenda Lafferty and his department.  I would highly recommend anyone interested in the actual case to watch it.  There is a transcript if you prefer to read.  Seriously, if you don’t, I have a hard time imagining you care that much about what really happened.

Quote

I’ve been asked by Sharon Wright Weeks — she’s Brenda sister and family spokesperson — to present a true account of the investigation of the deaths of her sister niece. And to talk about the efforts that we went to to bring to justice those persons who are responsible for those horrible murders. I’m making this effort to support the Wright family by presenting an accurate account to the organization that I understand is called Faithful Answers, Informed Response (FAIR) organization. I’m pleased to do so. This will be an overview of the investigation.

As far as the investigation goes, the book appears to be much better with the details than the miniseries.

And as far as the major claim the Church tried to influence the investigation:

Quote

No church leader ever tried to influence us in any way during or after the investigation. 

 

Edited March 4, 2024 by Calm

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think you mean the detective.  I don’t remember him being a bishop.

You're right, I knew I should go back and take a look at it, the storyline and players or actors. Thanks for correcting me Calm, I'm truly seeing myself losing it today, hopefully it's just a poor night's sleep, lol. Sadly, it's not that, so here I go.

[Smiley McGee]

Couldn’t finish the series. It tries to hammer home the message (“Mormonism bad”) so hard that it ceased to be film and became something else…almost like an exmo PSA or after school special. Exmo forums rave about it, kind of like the way faithful forums rave about crappy faithful films, like The Witnesses or The Fighting Preacher. 
 

Given the budget and cast, it was a big swing and miss.

[Pyreaux]

46 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Well of course you did.  The series was especially designed to disturb in several ways.  They made extensive use of that low-bass barely-audible background noise, so widely used in horror movies, to build suspense and instill the viewer with a sense of ominousness and impending danger.  

I only got about 3 episodes into the series, but I honestly started laughing at it's over-the-top use of this soundtrack element.  I've been in an awful lot of 1:1 bishop interviews in my life, I've brought up my share of difficult topics and received my share of advice and counsel.  And yet somehow I missed out on the hidden speakers rumbling it's deep bassy ominousness.

I'm genuinely curious - did you notice your emotional state was being manipulated in this way as you watched the episodes?   If not, I'd suggest you watch the series again.  Pay attention to the background music.  You might start laughing like I did.

 

Stuff I recognized:
- arguing about caffeinated drinks being against the WoW
- talking callings with each other, meeting new LDS folks.
- freaky weird families with bizarre stuff that makes no sense, antigovernment types that just seem to carry ominous background music around with them.  (I've met several, both in and out the church.)
- Large families with a very religious patriarch and matriarch running the show.
- Large family dysfunction 
- Senior missionary couples
- Service projects
- MMM, Joseph getting tarred and feathered, kicked out of Kirtland, Haun's Mill massacre
- CTR rings, references to Eagle scouts
- Relief society and food!
- The cop praying with his gun out before moving from cover.
- Baptismal interview, bishop's interview (but without the spooky background music)
- Bishop counseling psychological medications are ok. (but without the spooky background music, and they missed the part about competent medical advice.)
- The claim Porter Rockwell (Joseph's Avenging Angel) assassinated Gov Boggs on Joseph's order.
- I recognized many of the '80's attitudes towards women.  I saw a lot of that firsthand in my own family and neighborhood, as my totally a-religious father went about being the head of his house.  And he'd take me to the American Legion for hamburgers, where I'd listen to him drink beer with his military buddies and talk about women.  And they'd haul me to their friends' houses, where the men would drink beer and talk about women, and the women would play cards and smoke and bemoan their sorry existence as women in a man's world.   This was in Salt Lake City in the '70's and '80's.

Stuff I didn't recognize: 
- The constant working of religious talk into every day conversations
- Ominous secret hidden ominous-ness
- The ominous music accompanying bouts of religious import
- "LDS women are taught to be obedient, to serve their husband, to obey."
- Looking down on women for going to college
- Bishop's counsel to stop looking into the past. 
- Deep base background music, the same they use in horror movies or haunted houses.
- "I'm the priesthood holder, now it's settled and let's have nookie"
- Praying with fingers interlocked and elbows bent, with that deep bassey horror-movie sound in the background.
- I have never seen a group of male family members ganging up on a female in an argument.
- All the LDS women educating each other about their duty to support and obey their husbands.
- Did I mention the stupid low-bass background music that accompanied all the innocent stuff like meeting /w the bishop and socializing at the potluck and having family home evening?

Honestly, some of the things in this 2nd list had me howling in laughter.  I went and told my wife I was watching Banner and it said I'm the priesthood leader so that meant she needed to be quiet and accept my answer.  Then we were both laughing.  

Have you seen anyone Quad-thump (like some may Bible-thump)? Like intruding in the interrogation to exclaim a D&C passage? Did you recognize that Lafferdy was an apostate and not an OG Mormon? Or that the detective was a completely fictional character?

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You're right, I knew I should go back and take a look at it, the storyline and players or actors. Thanks for correcting me Calm, I'm truly seeing myself losing it today, hopefully it's just a poor night's sleep, lol. Sadly, it's not that, so here I go.

You are just like the vast majority of people your age (iirc you are a five to ten years younger than me), imo.  You and I are hypersensitive about memory issues because of our parents’ problems, but I bet neither of us are that much worse than average our age.

Quote

hopefully it's just a poor night's sleep, lol. Sadly, it's not that, so here I go

You can build up a sleep debt that even a few nights of good sleep may barely dent, so don’t discount less than ideal sleep yet.

Edited March 4, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Like intruding in the interrogation to exclaim a D&C passage?

This part had me laughing my head off and 🤮at the same time.

[LoudmouthMormon]

45 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Have you seen anyone Quad-thump (like some may Bible-thump)? Like intruding in the interrogation to exclaim a D&C passage? Did you recognize that Lafferdy was an apostate and not an OG Mormon? Or that the detective was a completely fictional character?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.  

For the "intruding in the interrogation to exclaim a D&C passage", that would be my first boss.  Family owned candy store in the mid '80's.  Dude would hold work parties and buy food (which was cool), and he'd have us start with prayer (which was incredibly awkward for both LDS and nonLDS employees).   He had a million little LDS-ocentric quirks which he was always voicing.  His wife could be even worse.  They were John Birchers, and also made things constantly awkward with all that stuff they brought into the workplace.  Two of his sons were absolute terrors.  One couldn't leave the high school girls alone, the other went after the occasional high school boy.  (It was my first job while in High school.  I speak from personal experience.)

So yeah, that family was one of the folks I was thinking of when I put this item in my list of "stuff I recognize":

Quote

- freaky weird families with bizarre stuff that makes no sense, antigovernment types that just seem to carry ominous background music around with them.  (I've met several, both in and out the church.)

 

But yeah, again, that list of stuff I didn't recognize, is a real list of things that I've never, ever, ever seen.

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.  

For the "intruding in the interrogation to exclaim a D&C passage", that would be my first boss.  Family owned candy store in the mid '80's.  Dude would hold work parties and buy food (which was cool), and he'd have us start with prayer (which was incredibly awkward for both LDS and nonLDS employees).   He had a million little LDS-ocentric quirks which he was always voicing.  His wife could be even worse.  They were John Birchers, and also made things constantly awkward with all that stuff they brought into the workplace.  Two of his sons were absolute terrors.  One couldn't leave the high school girls alone, the other went after the occasional high school boy.  (It was my first job while in High school.  I speak from personal experience.)

So yeah, that family was one of the folks I was thinking of when I put this item in my list of "stuff I recognize":

 

But yeah, again, that list of stuff I didn't recognize, is a real list of things that I've never, ever, ever seen.

My husband worked with him on a job and Ron was a crane operator. He said everyday Ron would read his BoM throughout the lunch time. He gave off a weird vibe. Not your usual LDS encounter. There might be LDS like them, but it's not the norm.

Edited March 4, 2024 by Tacenda

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

- freaky weird families with bizarre stuff that makes no sense, antigovernment types that just seem to carry ominous background music around with them.  (I've met several, both in and out the church.)

I'm adding to my list:  members who seem to hear ominous background music around freaky weird families with bizarre stuff that makes no sense   

I'm kidding, of course, but I know what you mean.

[Rain]

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Well of course you did.  The series was especially designed to disturb in several ways.  They made extensive use of that low-bass barely-audible background noise, so widely used in horror movies, to build suspense and instill the viewer with a sense of ominousness and impending danger.  

I only got about 3 episodes into the series, but I honestly started laughing at it's over-the-top use of this soundtrack element.  I've been in an awful lot of 1:1 bishop interviews in my life, I've brought up my share of difficult topics and received my share of advice and counsel.  And yet somehow I missed out on the hidden speakers rumbling it's deep bassy ominousness.

I'm genuinely curious - did you notice your emotional state was being manipulated in this way as you watched the episodes?   If not, I'd suggest you watch the series again.  Pay attention to the background music.  You might start laughing like I did.

 

Stuff I recognized:
- arguing about caffeinated drinks being against the WoW
- talking callings with each other, meeting new LDS folks.
- freaky weird families with bizarre stuff that makes no sense, antigovernment types that just seem to carry ominous background music around with them.  (I've met several, both in and out the church.)
- Large families with a very religious patriarch and matriarch running the show.
- Large family dysfunction 
- Senior missionary couples
- Service projects
- MMM, Joseph getting tarred and feathered, kicked out of Kirtland, Haun's Mill massacre
- CTR rings, references to Eagle scouts
- Relief society and food!
- The cop praying with his gun out before moving from cover.
- Baptismal interview, bishop's interview (but without the spooky background music)
- Bishop counseling psychological medications are ok. (but without the spooky background music, and they missed the part about competent medical advice.)
- The claim Porter Rockwell (Joseph's Avenging Angel) assassinated Gov Boggs on Joseph's order.
- I recognized many of the '80's attitudes towards women.  I saw a lot of that firsthand in my own family and neighborhood, as my totally a-religious father went about being the head of his house.  And he'd take me to the American Legion for hamburgers, where I'd listen to him drink beer with his military buddies and talk about women.  And they'd haul me to their friends' houses, where the men would drink beer and talk about women, and the women would play cards and smoke and bemoan their sorry existence as women in a man's world.   This was in Salt Lake City in the '70's and '80's.

Stuff I didn't recognize: 
- The constant working of religious talk into every day conversations
- Ominous secret hidden ominous-ness
- The ominous music accompanying bouts of religious import
- "LDS women are taught to be obedient, to serve their husband, to obey."

 

This is definitely temple related pre 1990 and sort of there up till a few years ago.  So it was probably familiar to the Lafferty's in 1984.

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

- Looking down on women for going to college
- Bishop's counsel to stop looking into the past. 
- Deep base background music, the same they use in horror movies or haunted houses.
- "I'm the priesthood holder, now it's settled and let's have nookie"
- Praying with fingers interlocked and elbows bent, with that deep bassey horror-movie sound in the background.
- I have never seen a group of male family members ganging up on a female in an argument.
- All the LDS women educating each other about their duty to support and obey their husbands.
- Did I mention the stupid low-bass background music that accompanied all the innocent stuff like meeting /w the bishop and socializing at the potluck and having family home evening?

Honestly, some of the things in this 2nd list had me howling in laughter.  I went and told my wife I was watching Banner and it said I'm the priesthood leader so that meant she needed to be quiet and accept my answer.  Then we were both laughing.  

 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is definitely temple related pre 1990 and sort of there up till a few years ago.  So it was probably familiar to the Lafferty's in 1984.

 

I know a lot of endowed members pre-1990 and even for them the idea that women are taught to be obedient to their husbands and to serve them would be foreign.  It was an aspect of the previous iteration of the temple endowment, but it seems like the Lafferty (and other similar groups) had a unique interpretation of what that meant for everyday life and relationships between the sexes.

(If I'm understanding your comment correctly).

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

This is definitely temple related pre 1990 and sort of there up till a few years ago.  So it was probably familiar to the Lafferty's in 1984.

I was married in 1980.  You will need to be more specific before I know whether to agree or disagree,   

[Smiley McGee]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I know a lot of endowed members pre-1990 and even for them the idea that women are taught to be obedient to their husbands and to serve them would be foreign.

It was literally part of the law of obedience, even post 1990. Women covenanted to obey their husbands as their husbands obeyed God. 

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

It was literally part of the law of obedience, even post 1990. Women covenanted to obey their husbands as their husbands obeyed God. 

Funny thing, I guess they'd say obey your husband in the past with civil marriages, so it could have stemmed from that. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I know a lot of endowed members pre-1990 and even for them the idea that women are taught to be obedient to their husbands and to serve them would be foreign.  It was an aspect of the previous iteration of the temple endowment, but it seems like the Lafferty (and other similar groups) had a unique interpretation of what that meant for everyday life and relationships between the sexes.

(If I'm understanding your comment correctly).

Definitely they had a unique interpretation, they aren't the only men who thought their wives should obey them because of it. One of the women in an RS presidency with me was like that - keep in mind I'm not saying he was like the Lafferty's just that some men took that to heart.