Under the banner of heaven

[Orthodox Christian]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

If you could list the ones you are thinking of, we might be able to provide greater context on for whether something actually aligns to doctrine or not.

For example, blood atonement was taught as a way for someone to willingly give up their life as an act of repentance iirc and therefore if someone was killed without consent, that was murder and not doctrinal.

Hi Calm, thank you for responding. I would have to watch it again, not sure I'm up to that. 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hi Calm, thank you for responding. I would have to watch it again, not sure I'm up to that. 

I think we can let you off the hook for that, then. There are some things I've done in my life about which I've said, "I don't know that I could possibly have found a better use for those [insert length of time here: number of hours or number of minutes] than what I just spent them doing!  That was  awesome!"    And there are other things I've done in my life (and, Alas! , I have done too many such things) about which I have said, "Welp, there go [insert length of time here] from my life that I'll never get back! What a waste! "  Live and learn! )  Neither I nor anyone else here wishes you to do the latter of those two things simply to satisfy our curiosity!  We have absolutely no right to ask you to do that.  Please, by all means, ... spend your time in the most productive pursuits possible that are meaningful to you. 

It's pretty clear that the creators of the series are disaffected from the faith they once knew.  While I do wish them well on their faith journey wherever it takes them, if I want to know more about your faith, @Orthodox Christian, I'm going to ask you:   I'm not going to ask someone who is disaffected from your faith.

Edited March 26, 2024 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Hi Calm, thank you for responding. I would have to watch it again, not sure I'm up to that. 

I get that.
 

I will try and find a review that goes over the claims in detail. Iirc, he borrowed the conspiracy theory idea that Brigham Young was involved in the death of Joseph Smith, which is highly, highly unlikely as the guy adored him.  I don’t know of any reputable historian that even entertains that idea. 
 

There were other scenes of violence that were completely made up.

Brigham Young was in New England at that time and would have at least found it difficult to orchestrate the assassination. 

Iirc, there have been studies that compare violence in Utah to territories surrounding it and they found Utah was less violent over all.*** 

There were some truly tragic events and one that shames the Church even if not ordered by BY or others in SL, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, because it was done by local LDS settlers (paranoia and other factors, one of those cases where you wonder how normal people could turn into monsters).  The best treatment of that imo by Richard Turley and two others whose names I can’t remember. Massive and depressing books.  The Church actually issued an apology awhile back. It is up on the Church’s website and in the first thing that comes up when I did a search on the MMM, I was glad to see. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/mountain-meadows-massacre?lang=eng#title1

This chapter of Saints, Volume 2 goes into more detail:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/saints-v2/part-2/18-too-late-too-late?lang=eng

***This is of course from the bias of the Saints, but has some useful info, imo, and I am too occupied with other stuff to try and find a less church oriented version at this time. If you are seriously interested, I will look up stuff in a day or two. Let me know. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints?lang=eng#title8

Edited March 26, 2024 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

... Iirc, he borrowed the conspiracy theory idea that Brigham Young was involved in the death of Joseph Smith, which is highly, highly unlikely as the guy adored him.  I don’t know of any reputable historian that even entertains that idea. ...

About the ridiculous idea that Brigham Young had anything to do with Joseph Smith's death ... Yeaaaahhhh ... no.
 

Quote

 

Brigham Young announced, “I feel like shouting hallelujah, all the time, when I think that I ever know Joseph Smith, the Prophet whom the Lord raised up … and to whom He gave keys and power to build up the kingdom of God on the earth and sustain it” (Journal of Discourses 3:51) ...

[First set of ellipses in my source's original; I'm not "hiding" my source; if anyone wants to know where I got the quote, let me know, and I will post my source.] 

 

 

[Orthodox Christian]

On 3/26/2024 at 10:47 PM, Calm said:

I get that.
 

I will try and find a review that goes over the claims in detail. Iirc, he borrowed the conspiracy theory idea that Brigham Young was involved in the death of Joseph Smith, which is highly, highly unlikely as the guy adored him.  I don’t know of any reputable historian that even entertains that idea. 
 

There were other scenes of violence that were completely made up.

Brigham Young was in New England at that time and would have at least found it difficult to orchestrate the assassination. 

Iirc, there have been studies that compare violence in Utah to territories surrounding it and they found Utah was less violent over all.*** 

There were some truly tragic events and one that shames the Church even if not ordered by BY or others in SL, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, because it was done by local LDS settlers (paranoia and other factors, one of those cases where you wonder how normal people could turn into monsters).  The best treatment of that imo by Richard Turley and two others whose names I can’t remember. Massive and depressing books.  The Church actually issued an apology awhile back. It is up on the Church’s website and in the first thing that comes up when I did a search on the MMM, I was glad to see. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/mountain-meadows-massacre?lang=eng#title1

This chapter of Saints, Volume 2 goes into more detail:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/saints-v2/part-2/18-too-late-too-late?lang=eng

***This is of course from the bias of the Saints, but has some useful info, imo, and I am too occupied with other stuff to try and find a less church oriented version at this time. If you are seriously interested, I will look up stuff in a day or two. Let me know. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints?lang=eng#title8

Thank you Calm, but you don't have to do that. I have read enough. Seems to me that the person who created this film used a tragic event to air contoversies. And to what end, to satisfy himself that he got it out there imo. From what I have read, these controversies are already out there, so I suspect this film satisfied his own need. Something that he felt driven to do. All church traditions have sad actions and events in their past that are uncomfortable when studied through our modern prism. Protestants and Catholics have been attacking each other for years for example. It seems to be a sad facet of our human nature that as Christians we cannot "abide in love" 

Edited March 29, 2024 by Orthodox Christian

[Calm]

11 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

It seems to be a sad facet of our human nature that as Christians we cannot "abide in love" 

Too true and so very tragic.