Stargazer Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 (edited) There's a YouTube livestream about this case on Nate the Lawyer's YT channel. The church has been mentioned in connection with the mess. Some people the live chat have said that the "church is complicit" because anyone watching Ruby's videos should have seen there was something wrong there. I am not sure if the current livestream will have the same Url as the finally posted video. The video description says it's discussing: "Convicted YouTuber Ruby Franke Case Drop Among nearly 17 gigabytes of data released are body cam videos, photos, audio interviews, eyewitness statements, and even copies of a journal highlighting the thought processes of Jodi Hildebrandt and Ruby Franke as they punished the children for “Satanic choices.” Here's the link as I see it right now: EDITED TO ADD: If you saw this after the livestream ended you would have seen that the video wasn't available. I've deleted the link now, but if/when the livestream gets posted for viewing "deadstream" (LOL), I'll try to post the link in this thread. Edited March 24, 2024 by Stargazer
Tacenda Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 56 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Evil stuff. The video of the kids is just awful. The neighbor choking up on the 911 call. 😩 Those kids would have died. The journal entries… For sure and had "R" not rescued he and his sister they were doomed. Especially since Jodi and Ruby were looking for a bunch of land in Arizona and the kids would be "dropped like hot potatoes" there, according to Ruby's journal.
Tacenda Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 Excellent video tying Chad Daybell, Lori Daybell, Tim Ballard, Jodi Hildebrandt and Ruby Franke. This is probably not going to end here, I'll bet there's soon to be more to come. If you'd like, watch at 14:10.
Tacenda Posted March 24, 2024 Posted March 24, 2024 (edited) At around 1 hour 20 minutes in, it mentions that Jodi was a cutter to herself and wouldn't show her arms because of that. This makes me wonder about "E" because on one of the photos, E's arms were covered with cut marks, almost looked like chicken feet marks all over those poor little arms. Edited March 24, 2024 by Tacenda 1
Tacenda Posted March 26, 2024 Posted March 26, 2024 I think Thom Harrison needs to have some sort of discipline so LDS won't trust the guy. His book and him have caused many to go down the wrong road, and deaths have occurred and in this case "E" and "R" narrowly missed death. With his connections with the Daybell's and Hildebrandt and Franke, and even Tim Ballard. Luckily Ballard hasn't gone totally mad yet, maybe he got reigned in in time. I hope the church will do something quick, before another situation occurs. https://www.deilataylor.com/eternal-core-podcast-with-thom-harrison/ 2
Popular Post MustardSeed Posted March 26, 2024 Popular Post Posted March 26, 2024 (edited) I may be late to the party but who is this Adam Steed who claims that he filed a lawsuit 15 years ago for therapeutic abuse and that some president of the 70s quarum Richard G something worked with Jody Hildebrandt to fight against him? edit- I see now that Tacenda referred to him. But I didn’t recognize him in the latest thing I saw. Looks like he’s getting a little bit of traction at this point. I believe that the nickelodeon scandal is busting wide open fresh stories as people experience support online for their abuse long ago. My heart goes out to victims of physical and sexual abuse. Edited March 26, 2024 by MustardSeed 5
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 In this video Ruby's husband talks about her writings in what he called "the pen papers", which are writings that were to be kept hidden until a certain time for all the world to see. Writings with visions and scripture. Oh boy, this is sounding so much like Chad Daybell. How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay. I'm sure there will be more crop up that are harming children. Not too long ago we had that mom that kidnapped her son and was trying to take him to Canada and in this article it was from a doomsday prophecy. https://kutv.com/news/local/missing-teen-doomsday-family-gilbert-arizona-blaze-thibaudeau-16-found-adult-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-mormon-lds-family-spring-abi-brooke-hale-idaho-utah-arrested-after-doomsday-related-disappearance And here is Kevin Franke speaking with officers about the pen papers. I think they need to bring in Pam for questioning as well. 1
bluebell Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 16 hours ago, Tacenda said: In this video Ruby's husband talks about her writings in what he called "the pen papers", which are writings that were to be kept hidden until a certain time for all the world to see. Writings with visions and scripture. Oh boy, this is sounding so much like Chad Daybell. How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay. I'm sure there will be more crop up that are harming children. Not too long ago we had that mom that kidnapped her son and was trying to take him to Canada and in this article it was from a doomsday prophecy. https://kutv.com/news/local/missing-teen-doomsday-family-gilbert-arizona-blaze-thibaudeau-16-found-adult-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-mormon-lds-family-spring-abi-brooke-hale-idaho-utah-arrested-after-doomsday-related-disappearance And here is Kevin Franke speaking with officers about the pen papers. I think they need to bring in Pam for questioning as well. Many if not most of those people believe the leaders of the church are either out of this specific loop of authority/information or have fallen and lost their priesthood. They probably aren't going to listen to warnings from them. My parents stake president in wyoming stood in stake conference and out of the blue warned members not to put so much stock in energy healings and energy work, so the warnings are out there. Maybe they will help some. 4
smac97 Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 16 hours ago, Tacenda said: In this video Ruby's husband talks about her writings in what he called "the pen papers", which are writings that were to be kept hidden until a certain time for all the world to see. Writings with visions and scripture. Oh boy, this is sounding so much like Chad Daybell. How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay. By way of illustration as to how the Church addresses such things, see this excerpt from the Handbook: Quote 38.7.8 Medical and Health Care Seeking competent medical help, exercising faith, and receiving priesthood blessings work together for healing, according to the will of the Lord. Members should not use or promote medical or health practices that are ethically, spiritually, or legally questionable. Those who have health problems should consult with competent medical professionals who are licensed in the areas where they practice. In addition to seeking competent medical help, members of the Church are encouraged to follow the scriptural injunction in James 5:14 to “call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.” Priesthood blessings of healing are given by those who hold the necessary priesthood office. They are given when requested and at no charge (see 18.13). Church members are discouraged from seeking miraculous or supernatural healing from an individual or group that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of prayer and properly performed priesthood blessings. These practices are often referred to as “energy healing.” Other names are also used. Such promises for healing are often given in exchange for money. And this one: Quote 38.6.12 The Occult “That which is of God is light” (Doctrine and Covenants 50:24). The occult focuses on darkness and leads to deception. It destroys faith in Christ. The occult includes Satan worship. It also includes mystical activities that are not in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Such activities include (but are not limited to) fortune-telling, curses, and healing practices that are imitations of the priesthood power of God (see Moroni 7:11–17). Church members should not engage in any form of Satan worship or participate in any way with the occult. They should not focus on such darkness in conversations or in Church meetings. Further, here is an excerpt from an October 2017 General Conference talk given by Elder M. Russell Ballard: Quote We must be careful where our footsteps in life take us. We must be watchful and heed the counsel of Jesus to His disciples as He answered these questions: “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man [and I add woman] deceive you.”9 Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders. Brothers and sisters, keep the doctrine of Christ pure and never be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine. The gospel of the Father and the Son was restored through Joseph Smith, the prophet for this last dispensation. Do not listen to those who have not been ordained and/or set apart to their Church calling and are not acknowledged by common consent of the members of the Church.10 Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand. Do not listen to those who entice you with get-rich schemes. Our members have lost far too much money, so be careful. In some places, too many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support. An official Church statement, issued one year ago, states: “We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.”11 The Church Handbook counsels: “Members should not use medical or health practices that are ethically or legally questionable. Local leaders should advise members who have health problems to consult with competent professional practitioners who are licensed in the countries where they practice.”12 Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful. ___________ 9. Matthew 24:3–4. 10. See Doctrine and Covenants 26:2; 28:13; 43:6–7. 11. Church spokesman Eric Hawkins, Sept. 2016. 12. Handbook 2, 21.3.6. "Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders." "{N}ever be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine." "Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand." "{T}oo many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support." "An official Church statement, issued one year ago, states: 'We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.'" "Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful." I have previously quoted the foregoing counsel in September 2023 (you participated in that thread), and also here and here (also in September 2023), and here (in February 2023), and also here in September 2019. The the Handbook has been publicly and freely available online to the Latter-day Saints for some years now. The Church seems to have given pretty clear guidance on these issues. Consequently, could you elaborate on your criticism ("How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay.")? Do you think the foregoing counsel is defective? Insufficient? What is it that you think the Church should do to "warn the members" that it has not already done? Is it possible that church leaders have "warn{ed} the members"? That most conversant and observant Latter-day Saints are following this counsel, but that some - like Ruby Franke - are not? 16 hours ago, Tacenda said: I'm sure there will be more crop up that are harming children. Yes. And there will also be "more" Latter-day Saints who abuse others, or engage in sexual misconduct, or exhibit racism, sexism, bigotry, etc., or participate in shady/dishonest business practices, and so on. We can be sure of this because, well, we are living in a fallen world and the Latter-day Saints are, like everyone else, sinners in one way or another. The Latter-day Saints need to work on their behavior (who doesn't?), but characterizing the Church as sitting on its hands and doing nothing, and suggesting that we are waiting for it to finally get around and do its job, seems like an unwarranted and unfair criticism. Thanks, -Smac 1
Calm Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Many if not most of those people believe the leaders of the church are either out of this specific loop of authority/information or have fallen and lost their priesthood. They probably aren't going to listen to warnings from them. My parents stake president in wyoming stood in stake conference and out of the blue warned members not to put so much stock in energy healings and energy work, so the warnings are out there. Maybe they will help some. I remember when a talk was given in conference that did warn against energy healing. What I saw in the online community as well as a report from friends who are into less troublesome forms of alternative healing was generally ‘he wasn’t talking about what I do because mine is Christ centered’ or some variation or a rejection and distancing of authority. I hope there were some in the energy healing community who chose to distance themselves from the worst practices of it at least, but I think such warnings are more likely to prevent those who might be interested from exploring rather than pulling out those already in and so you wouldn’t see much of a drop in numbers if we had them. Most people who use energy healers have not been able to get sufficient help through traditional medicine or who have been harmed by it. Even if it is the placebo effect (which can be an effective tool of medicine, imo, we should pay more attention to and maybe change its name as the name has the baggage the healing that occurs is fake), they often feel life is better (and sometimes they are right to do so, the mind can help heal the body in many ways….or harm it) and don’t see another way of getting that help, so they will come up with some way to hold on to what they see as helping no matter what criticism they hear. Those who get deeply into the kind of extreme stuff Daybell and Franke were pushing to the few of their inner groups are a different issue though and I suspect that type will find something that fills their particular dysfunction one way or the other. The vast, vast majority of those who saw Daybell as a leader of some sort or at least a fount of wisdom would never ever justify killing a kid or spouse because he told them an evil spirit had taken over the body. The vast majority of those who followed the advice of Franke would never duct tape a kid. Those who take their beliefs to sick levels hide the sickness from most. And are good at it or they would have been caught early on. But there are currently warnings in the handbook… Quote Church members are discouraged from seeking miraculous or supernatural healing from an individual or group that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of prayer and properly performed priesthood blessings. These practices are often referred to as “energy healing.” Other names are also used. Such promises for healing are often given in exchange for money. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng Edited March 28, 2024 by Calm 1
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 9 minutes ago, smac97 said: By way of illustration as to how the Church addresses such things, see this excerpt from the Handbook: And this one: Further, here is an excerpt from an October 2017 General Conference talk given by Elder M. Russell Ballard: "Today I repeat earlier counsel from Church leaders." "{N}ever be deceived by those who tamper with the doctrine." "Be aware of organizations, groups, or individuals claiming secret answers to doctrinal questions that they say today’s apostles and prophets do not have or understand." "{T}oo many of our people are looking beyond the mark and seeking secret knowledge in expensive and questionable practices to provide healing and support." "An official Church statement, issued one year ago, states: 'We urge Church members to be cautious about participating in any group that promises—in exchange for money—miraculous healings or that claims to have special methods for accessing healing power outside of properly ordained priesthood holders.'" "Brothers and sisters, be wise and aware that such practices may be emotionally appealing but may ultimately prove to be spiritually and physically harmful." I have previously quoted the foregoing counsel in September 2023 (you participated in that thread), and also here and here (also in September 2023), and here (in February 2023), and also here in September 2019. The the Handbook has been publicly and freely available online to the Latter-day Saints for some years now. The Church seems to have given pretty clear guidance on these issues. Consequently, could you elaborate on your criticism ("How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay.")? Do you think the foregoing counsel is defective? Insufficient? What is it that you think the Church should do to "warn the members" that it has not already done? Is it possible that church leaders have "warn{ed} the members"? That most conversant and observant Latter-day Saints are following this counsel, but that some - like Ruby Franke - are not? Yes. And there will also be "more" Latter-day Saints who abuse others, or engage in sexual misconduct, or exhibit racism, sexism, bigotry, etc., or participate in shady/dishonest business practices, and so on. We can be sure of this because, well, we are living in a fallen world and the Latter-day Saints are, like everyone else, sinners in one way or another. The Latter-day Saints need to work on their behavior (who doesn't?), but characterizing the Church as sitting on its hands and doing nothing, and suggesting that we are waiting for it to finally get around and do its job, seems like an unwarranted and unfair criticism. Thanks, -Smac The discernment of leaders leaves a lot to the imagination for the bishops that referred the members go to Jodi Hildebrandt for therapy. She wrecked so many lives.
smac97 Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 38 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The discernment of leaders leaves a lot to the imagination for the bishops that referred the members go to Jodi Hildebrandt for therapy. She wrecked so many lives. Again, you said: "How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay." The Church seems to have given pretty clear guidance on these issues. Consequently, could you elaborate on your criticism ("How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay.")? Do you think the foregoing counsel is defective? Insufficient? What is it that you think the Church should do to "warn the members" that it has not already done? Is it possible that church leaders have "warn{ed} the members"? That most conversant and observant Latter-day Saints are following this counsel, but that some - like Ruby Franke - are not? The Latter-day Saints need to work on their behavior (who doesn't?), but characterizing the Church as sitting on its hands and doing nothing, and suggesting that we are waiting for it to finally get around and do its job, seems like an unwarranted and unfair criticism. As for your dig about "discernment of leaders," I find that interesting. If a bishop gives a food order to a member of his ward, and if the food later obtained and consumed by the member causes food poisoning, would you similarly vilify/mock "{t}he discernment" of the bishop? By your reckoning, the bishop should have seen that coming, and that he did not demonstrates that he lacks "discernment," right? Right? Or what if a bishop helps a member by paying a mechanic to repair the member's brakes, but the mechanic does a poor job which culminates in an accident that leaves the member injured. By your reasoning, the bishop should have "discerned" that this would happen, right? And so on. Thanks, -Smac
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 (edited) 1 minute ago, smac97 said: Again, you said: "How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay." The Church seems to have given pretty clear guidance on these issues. Consequently, could you elaborate on your criticism ("How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay.")? Do you think the foregoing counsel is defective? Insufficient? What is it that you think the Church should do to "warn the members" that it has not already done? Is it possible that church leaders have "warn{ed} the members"? That most conversant and observant Latter-day Saints are following this counsel, but that some - like Ruby Franke - are not? The Latter-day Saints need to work on their behavior (who doesn't?), but characterizing the Church as sitting on its hands and doing nothing, and suggesting that we are waiting for it to finally get around and do its job, seems like an unwarranted and unfair criticism. As for your dig about "discernment of leaders," I find that interesting. If a bishop gives a food order to a member of his ward, and if the food later obtained and consumed by the member causes food poisoning, would you similarly vilify/mock "{t}he discernment" of the bishop? By your reckoning, the bishop should have seen that coming, and that he did not demonstrates that he lacks "discernment," right? Right? Or what if a bishop helps a member by paying a mechanic to repair the member's brakes, but the mechanic does a poor job which culminates in an accident that leaves the member injured. By your reasoning, the bishop should have "discerned" that this would happen, right? And so on. Thanks, -Smac But no particulars are listed. Maybe an in house letter or email to all bishops/stake presidents about Thom Harrison and Visions of Glory, groups like AVOW etc Edited March 28, 2024 by Tacenda
Calm Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Tacenda said: But no particulars are listed. Maybe an in house letter or email to all bishops/stake presidents about Thom Harrison and Visions of Glory, groups like AVOW etc I would like to see names named too, but the only time I remember this happening was with Tim Ballard for some reason (perhaps because the connection between him and Elder Ballard too easily appeared justified or because they didn’t want similar organizations to be damaged by vagueness?) and with Julie Rowe. Not very common. Anyone remember other names? Quote Julie Rowe’s book “A Greater Tomorrow: My Journey Beyond the Veil” has been added to a list of “spurious materials in circulation” that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is warning its seminary and institute instructors not to use. “Although Sister Rowe is an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, her book is not endorsed by the Church and should not be recommended to students or used as a resource in teaching them,” the warning reads. “The experiences she shares are her own personal experiences and do not necessarily reflect Church doctrine or they may distort Church doctrine.” In the book, Rowe writes of her near-death experience in 2004, complete with visions she claims to have had of the history of the world and the chaotic events of the last days. A Church spokesman said the following: Church spokesman Doug Andersen released a follow-up statement to 2News Thursday about the warning to seminary and institute instructors. “The internal memo does not constitute an official Church statement but serves as a routine reminder to teachers from Seminaries and Institutes of Religion of their responsibility to teach from the scriptures and church leaders,” Andersen said. “People who read her books should recognize that they are personal accounts and do not necessarily reflect church doctrine.” https://www.millennialstar.org/a-caution-about-julie-rowes-book/ Edited March 28, 2024 by Calm 2
bluebell Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 7 minutes ago, Calm said: I would like to see names named too, but the only time I remember this happening was with Tim Ballard for some reason (perhaps because the connection between him and Elder Ballard too easily appeared justified or because they didn’t want similar organizations to be damaged by vagueness?) and with Julie Rowe. Not very common. Anyone remember other names? https://www.millennialstar.org/a-caution-about-julie-rowes-book/ It would be interesting to see what other books are on it. Wasn't visions of glory "denounced" by the church in a similar manner?
smac97 Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 23 minutes ago, Tacenda said: But no particulars are listed. Maybe an in house letter or email to all bishops/stake presidents about Thom Harrison and Visions of Glory, groups like AVOW etc General authorities typically give general advice. The problem with "particulars" in this context is that that generalized guidelines get subordinated to the "particular" statements about specific persons, books, etc. The Church is generally not in the business of publishing nihil obstat-style lists. And I think that's the better way to go. The Latter-day Saints out to take generalized counsel and make their own reasoned and informed decisions about such things. Otherwise, we may end up leaning too much on the "list" rather than on our own efforts, study, reasoning, etc. to figure out which voices to listen to and otherwise. Thanks, -Smac
BlueDreams Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 18 hours ago, Tacenda said: In this video Ruby's husband talks about her writings in what he called "the pen papers", which are writings that were to be kept hidden until a certain time for all the world to see. Writings with visions and scripture. Oh boy, this is sounding so much like Chad Daybell. How long is this going to go on before the church leaders warn the members how this is not okay. I'm sure there will be more crop up that are harming children. Not too long ago we had that mom that kidnapped her son and was trying to take him to Canada and in this article it was from a doomsday prophecy. https://kutv.com/news/local/missing-teen-doomsday-family-gilbert-arizona-blaze-thibaudeau-16-found-adult-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-mormon-lds-family-spring-abi-brooke-hale-idaho-utah-arrested-after-doomsday-related-disappearance And here is Kevin Franke speaking with officers about the pen papers. I think they need to bring in Pam for questioning as well. I have a client who's partner is into the religious fanaticism. Like deeply. Some of the stuff they've told me has made my jaw drop, laugh out loud, and deeply worry about my client's safety. I don't think their local ward leaders have any clue how out to lunch this individual is. I don't think the partner I work with fully knows all the crazy this person believes, since they've only received more info about their beliefs a piece at a time. People like this tend to know when their beliefs wouldn't be readily received by others and keep it hidden for the most part. They'll justify it as being more information than the general church is ready for, or higher knowledge, or that they're in some way more special than the general church body. A lot of the latter really. 33 minutes ago, Tacenda said: But no particulars are listed. Maybe an in house letter or email to all bishops/stake presidents about Thom Harrison and Visions of Glory, groups like AVOW etc I actually think that's less productive than general warnings. For one, it's impossible to name every small nut jub group and person. For another, it still gives leverage for others to differentiate them from these others. General warnings and guidance have the added benefit of throwing a wide net over several potential concerns and leave people more cautionary when it inevitably morphs shape to the new hip "I'm extra spiritual because I do X" trend that follows. With luv, BD 1
LoudmouthMormon Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 On 3/23/2024 at 11:15 AM, bluebell said: So much evil coming from members of that relatively small group (AVOW). I occasionally hang out with LDS preppers. Folks who spend a lot of energy thinking about and preparing for the days when 'the constitution shall hang by a thread and the Saints will preserve it'. Folks who take "get your food storage in order" and turn it into an entire personality, complete with bug-out locations, extensive firearms training. Lots of military and cops and rural folk. It's a mindset. Anyway, two of them (they don't know each other) used to be involved in AVOW, like 15 years ago. They both were attracted to the preparedness mindset of AVOW, both were confused by, then dismayed by the weirdness. Both left roughly the same time. Both expressed sentiments of having just escaped a cult. Every few years as more and more news of these folks hit, both of them express sentiments like "yeah, that's not surprising. I'm embarrassed I was suckered by them for so long." 2
bluebell Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 14 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said: I occasionally hang out with LDS preppers. Folks who spend a lot of energy thinking about and preparing for the days when 'the constitution shall hang by a thread and the Saints will preserve it'. Folks who take "get your food storage in order" and turn it into an entire personality, complete with bug-out locations, extensive firearms training. Lots of military and cops and rural folk. It's a mindset. Anyway, two of them (they don't know each other) used to be involved in AVOW, like 15 years ago. They both were attracted to the preparedness mindset of AVOW, both were confused by, then dismayed by the weirdness. Both left roughly the same time. Both expressed sentiments of having just escaped a cult. Every few years as more and more news of these folks hit, both of them express sentiments like "yeah, that's not surprising. I'm embarrassed I was suckered by them for so long." Someone brought up the “constitution hanging by a thread“ saying in my Sunday school class a few weeks ago, so I looked up every time that had been referenced by a prophet. I was surprised and intrigued to realize that from Brigham Young on many of them had claimed that they were living in the time that the constitution was hanging by a thread and would only be saved by the elders. if I remember right, the last prophet to say it was Ezra Taft Benson. 1
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 1 hour ago, smac97 said: General authorities typically give general advice. The problem with "particulars" in this context is that that generalized guidelines get subordinated to the "particular" statements about specific persons, books, etc. The Church is generally not in the business of publishing nihil obstat-style lists. And I think that's the better way to go. The Latter-day Saints out to take generalized counsel and make their own reasoned and informed decisions about such things. Otherwise, we may end up leaning too much on the "list" rather than on our own efforts, study, reasoning, etc. to figure out which voices to listen to and otherwise. Thanks, -Smac I think this is a life or death situation, unlike the Tim Ballard situation, maybe a reputation problem. Children are being killed, because they are dark or have the devil in them. This needs instant attention especially when there are so many following these cults from members of the church. 1
Calm Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Wasn't visions of glory "denounced" by the church in a similar manner? I don’t think so, which I always thought was really weird because it was as popular as Greater Tomorrow and has staying power. 1
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 (edited) I wish someone had a way of getting up the chain of command and speaking to them before next week's gen conf. I think this needs to be spoken about then. The book Visions of Glory and it's teachings are harmful as we can all see. It seems the leaders are silent about this. Edited March 28, 2024 by Tacenda 1
bluebell Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 1 hour ago, Calm said: I don’t think so, which I always thought was really weird because it was as popular as Greater Tomorrow and has staying power. The the author get excommunicated or something? Start his own church? I swear I remember something about it.
Calm Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 (edited) 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: The the author get excommunicated or something? Start his own church? I swear I remember something about it. One might have been excommunicated, but he died, can’t remember. He was getting in trouble for promoting personal visitations of Christ in his own books, iirc. This was John Pontius. The other, “Spencer”, wrote an “it’s not my fault” apology letter and as far as I know has ignored any personal responsibility for any negative fallout that way and claimed he was stepping away from it (when Pontius died, his estate took over publishing the book, so Harrison is claiming stuff was included without his permission or corrections) and apparently that was enough then to save him from discipline. But I have read Harrison had gotten involved with people like Tim Ballard seeking him out for blessings, etc. and I believe he may attend some conferences, but I haven’t been paying attention since LVD was found guilty and not much even before that. Got burned out I think with the search for her children and that mess being untangled. I get the feeling Harrison is a lot better at keeping just clean enough to avoid serious trouble that the usual hedge prophet. Edited March 28, 2024 by Calm 1
bluebell Posted March 28, 2024 Posted March 28, 2024 41 minutes ago, Calm said: One might have been excommunicated, but he died, can’t remember. He was getting in trouble for promoting personal visitations of Christ in his own books, iirc. This was John Pontius. The other, “Spencer”, wrote an “it’s not my fault” apology letter and as far as I know has ignored any personal responsibility for any negative fallout that way and claimed he was stepping away from it (when Pontius died, his estate took over publishing the book, so Harrison is claiming stuff was included without his permission or corrections) and apparently that was enough then to save him from discipline. But I have read Harrison had gotten involved with people like Tim Ballard seeking him out for blessings, etc. and I believe he may attend some conferences, but I haven’t been paying attention since LVD was found guilty and not much even before that. Got burned out I think with the search for her children and that mess being untangled. I get the feeling Harrison is a lot better at keeping just clean enough to avoid serious trouble that the usual hedge prophet. I think I might have gotten the author of visions of glory mixed up with Snuffer. 1
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