Paul's warning about false apostles

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

Please forgive my cluelessness, but what is the "callout craze?"

Besides what Loudmouth said, the biggest thing was the Saints would be told that those who had all their food storage ready were to come to a special Sunday night meeting where they would be told (“called out”) to get ready to hit the road as the Church would be sending trucks to pick it all up and they would caravan in their pickups, minivans, and RV off into the mountains to white tent cities in some safe refuge where only the Chosen were allowed. The rest of the Saints having failed in their duty to prepare would be left to Satan and the mobs that were coming to imprison (North Korea or Russia were going to invade the US and the US would declare martial law), destroy or whatever.

Besides invasion, there would be numerous earthquakes, fires, floods, economic collapse and social chaos…but all would be safe and watched by God’s army (which includes heavily armed Saints) in the tent cities.   Christ would appear and the gathering of Zion from around the world would commence. 
 

Timeline might be off, there was some variation.  The horrible thing about it is it plays into fears and pushes for abandonment of friends and family who do not believe. It destroyed a lot of families both financially as they sold their house and cashed out retirement funds to buy overpriced prepper stuff and as a unit as husbands and wives, parents and children disagreed.  Hopefully there are enough red flags out there that this is unlikely to be as extreme in the future. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The existence of false apostles necessitates the existence of true apostles.

Not really.Just because one person lies about something does not require someone else to be telling the truth. 
 

Quote

After all, if there is no longer any need for living apostles, that can only mean anyone claiming to be a true apostle can simply be rejected out of hand without any need for reason, discernment or divine inspiration.

I would agree with this, but we need to be careful to distinguish between those who say there are currently no apostles (one would need tests) and those who say there can’t ever be apostles again (dismiss anyone who claims to be an apostle just for the claim).  There are sects that allow for the existence of apostles in their doctrine while believing there are no current ones. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Calm

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I would agree with this, but we need to be careful to distinguish between those who say there are currently no apostles (one would need tests) and those who say there can’t ever be apostles again.  There are sects that allow for the existence of apostles in their doctrine while believing there are no current ones. 

There are actually sects that have current apostles. The New Apostolic Church, for one.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

There are actually sects that have current apostles. The New Apostolic Church, for one.

I was debating whether it looked like I was saying no other sect besides ours claimed apostles still existed by that name or another one, I did not mean to imply that.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I was debating whether it looked like I was saying no other sect besides ours claimed apostles still existed by that name or another one, I did not mean to imply that.

Thanks for the clarification!

[InCognitus]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

15 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The existence of false apostles necessitates the existence of true apostles.

Not really.Just because one person lies about something does not require someone else to be telling the truth. 

I suspect his reasoning is regarding the warning against, and not the mere existence of false apostles.  It's like when Jesus said, "beware of false prophets", there is an implied understanding that authentic prophets will exist, or otherwise why wouldn't he just say, "beware of prophets"?  

[Kevin Christensen]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

I can pass on to the person who fixes it, Kevin, is it just formatting or something else? And is it the essay itself or the links?

The first web page for the overall study disappeared a couple of months ago, which is a problem because I have often linked to it my Interpreter essays as well as posts here.  Not having the top level summary makes navigation to the pages that remain much more difficult.  I will quote the text content for the missing first page.  The links to the subsequent would need to be redone, of course.

Quote

Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets
by Kevin Christensen
"Most of us tend to see parts of a form hierarchically. The parts that are important (that is, provide a lot of information), or the parts that we decide are larger, or the parts we think should be larger, we see as larger than they actually are. Conversely, parts that are unimportant, or that we decide are smaller, or that we think should be smaller, we see as being smaller than they actually are." (Betty Edwards, Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, rev. ed. (Los Angeles: Tarcher, 1989), 134.

The Biblical keys for discerning true and false prophets are useful and plentiful, and for the most part, surprisingly neglected. This study includes a hypertext list of Bible tests for true and false prophets (needs link). The best known tests turn out to be the ones most qualified by precept and abused in practice. However, most can be applied without careful qualification, each positive test being balanced by complimentary tests for false prophets. Modern use calls for consideration of the Mote-Eye rule (Matthew 7:2-5), that no interpretation or application of a Biblical test for prophets can be correct if it requires us to reject Biblical prophets. Overall, these Biblical tests should focus attention on the truly important points by which we can discern the true and false.
Because the attitudes and actions of each individual shape what we can know and perceive, I also include a section on Bible passages that describe what a person should do in order to see truth. (needs link)  In all cases, the recommendations contrast with contrary behavior and attitudes we should avoid.
The Bible also includes many (Over 70, last time I counted) of the arguments made to justify rejecting true prophets. (needs link) I discuss some of the most instructive of these. They demonstrate that what people think and want often emerge as obstacles to their perceiving what is real. Additionally, other objections based on actual Bible tests often demonstrate what Jesus meant when he said that those who do not know what it means to “have mercy, and not sacrifice” may condemn the guiltless. In practice their examples show how the letter kills, and the spirit gives life.

The overall picture includes all three elements—tests to apply, actions and attitudes to demonstrate, and mistakes to avoid—and reveals an organic interaction between them. That is, those who use the appropriate tests for prophets also demonstrate the behavior recommended for seeing truth. Those who reject true prophets fall short of the recommended behavior. In consequence, they miss or misapply the actual tests for true prophets, and repeat the kinds of arguments used by those who rejected true prophets anciently. This shows why Jesus said “He that receiveth you receiveth me.” (Matthew 10:40). Despite the passage of millenia, that same issues arise. We too quickly congratulate ourselves for being modern.
I include a section on the implications these tests and Biblical examples have for testing the claims of Joseph Smith. (needs link)
One final point is that these are not “proof-texts” by which anyone can compel another person's thinking. (For a discussion, see the link to my detailed essay “Paradigms Crossed” provided in the Author's Note section.) Rather they provide essential contexts for the questions we ask about true and false prophets. Each scripture I quote here can and should be further considered in its own cultural and literary context. In some instances, where context is crucial, I have added information from modern scholarship. With respect to both scripture and commentary, I offer a beginning, not an ending. The soil in which we plant such seeds (the “word” in the parable of the Sower) and the care with which we nurture them over time affects our personal harvests.
Now, on to the study.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  (Matthew 24:14. Also see Ephesians 1:10, Acts 3:21, Deut. 27:30, Isaiah 29:9-24, 2:2-3, 28:7-16)
And how shall they preach, except they be sent?... (Romans 10:15)

•Bible tests for true and false prophets (needs link)
•Bible passages that describe what a person should do in order to see truth (needs link)
•Bible arguments made to justify rejecting true prophets (needs link)

• Considering Joseph Smith in light of these tests (needs link)
•Author's Note
Note: This study is designed with hypertext links and bookmarks to allow you to survey top-level summaries with or without going down into detailed quotation and discussion, according to your own pace and interests.

Thanks,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Jaydes]

I would define false apostles as those who claim to be apostles, but have never actually seen Christ or been ordained by his hands, and who lack the priesthood of an apostle which priesthood comes by the voice of God and who have not exerted unrighteous dominion.

[LoudmouthMormon]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

I am sorry to be so nitpicky, I think you are thinking of Julie Rowe…unless you hung out in places earlier than I did.

Yep, I stopped paying attention somewhere in the 2000's.   Fun to think Rowe kept the whole "no, this is really the date, and we mean it this time" thing going into the future.  

I know probably half a dozen or so folks who were, back in the day, quite big on the AVOW boards, who spent some time taking the whole impending prophecy thing seriously.  Whatever they were before, they all seem to have matured into reasonable adults.  Sort of like going through getting embezzled in a real estate transaction or having your wallet stolen by a friend, you end up feeling a little foolish but being a little wiser for the experience.    You folks keep giving more to the story that occurred after I stopped paying attention, that says something about the power of false prophets.  I guess there can be a constant churn of "new recruits" to replace the disillusioned apostates.

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Thanks for the clarification!

There are lots of groups, especially among black and Latino groups who have apostles. There is an increase in Pentecostal churches as well. I have also seen an increase in people being ordained to the office of prophet. Then you get back to definitions again. The typical Prophet in a Protestant church today is someone who have demonstrated a gift of preaching and possibly discernment. Very different from an OT prophet role.

[Navidad]

The word false apostle is actually one word and is only used one time in the entire New Testament. That makes it a hapaxlogomene or a one time usage word. I was always taught that such words should be considered not important because of their rare usage, or very important because the writer, Paul in this case made up a word. Paul did this probably more than anyone. So because it is used only one time, it is very hard to establish any kind of a definition of what  it means or to whom he was referring. It must have been a rare occurrence, or it would have been used more than once. It is simply the word pseudo attached to the word apostle. That doesn't tell us very much. The fact that no one else in the entire NT ever used that word, and Paul used it only once indicates, to me at least that the existence of such a person was extraordinarily rare.  Just my two cents.

[Teancum]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:53 AM, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

All apostles and prophets are false.  Run away from them all.  Your Bible is false as well..  Both ancient and modern self proclaimed prophets and apostles are false as well.

 

 

[InCognitus]

On 6/26/2023 at 8:53 AM, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

I just looked up the Greek word in Walter Bauer's: A Greek Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, p. 891 (thanks to Navidad's post above), and I think the definition it provides explains the difference between a false apostle and a true apostle: 

"ψευδαπόστολος, ου, ό  false apostle.  i.e. one who represents himself to be an apostle without the divine commission necessary for the office (cf. Polyaenus 5, 33, 6 ψευδάγγελοι = false messengers) 2 Cor 11:13.-- Cf. lit. s.v. ψευδόμαρτυς. *"

A true apostle would have the divine commission from Jesus Christ, either directly (as in the original twelve) or through divine revelation (as in the case of the apostle Paul and Barnabas - as in Acts 13:1-3).

Edited June 27, 2023 by InCognitus

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

The first web page for the overall study disappeared a couple of months ago, which is a problem because I have often linked to it my Interpreter essays as well as posts here.  Not having the top level summary makes navigation to the pages that remain much more difficult.  I will quote the text content for the missing first page.  The links to the subsequent would need to be redone, of course.

Thanks,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

I have sent the request.  If you don’t notice a change soon, let me know.  I don’t trust myself to remember to keep track of it these days.  I can’t even remember to check the list that tells me what I need to remember. 

[Pyreaux]

5 hours ago, Jaydes said:

I would define false apostles as those who claim to be apostles, but have never actually seen Christ or been ordained by his hands, and who lack the priesthood of an apostle which priesthood comes by the voice of God and who have not exerted unrighteous dominion.

Paul never met the mortal Jesus, and only saw him in his first vision, nor was he ordained by his hands, and previously may have served under the unrighteous dominion of the Sanhedrin to murder other Apostles. I'm not sure you articulated well the difference between Paul and a modern candidate as an Apostle.

[Jaydes]

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Paul never met the mortal Jesus, and only saw him in his first vision, nor was he ordained by his hands, and previously may have served under the unrighteous dominion of the Sanhedrin to murder other Apostles. I'm not sure you articulated well the difference between Paul and a modern candidate as an Apostle.

 Paul may have never met the mortal Jesus, but he did meet the risen Jesus, like all apostles, which is kind of what he is known for. I never stipulated they must have met him while he was yet a mortal, most apostles did not become so until long after his death. 

I do not believe the requirements to apostleship change between dispensations, and so I would have to assume he was in fact ordained, even if not specifically mentioned in the bible. 

Paul was not an apostle or a Christian when he did so. I would not hold an apostle or any Christian accountable based on the sins prior to their conversion. The issue is if someone who is an apostle, and thus has received the High priesthood, forfeits his claim to it through acts of tyranny and yet continues to claim to be an apostle. 

[Pyreaux]

On 6/27/2023 at 10:04 PM, Jaydes said:

 Paul may have never met the mortal Jesus, but he did meet the risen Jesus, like all apostles, which is kind of what he is known for. I never stipulated they must have met him while he was yet a mortal, most apostles did not become so until long after his death. 

I do not believe the requirements to apostleship change between dispensations, and so I would have to assume he was in fact ordained, even if not specifically mentioned in the bible. 

Paul was not an apostle or a Christian when he did so. I would not hold an apostle or any Christian accountable based on the sins prior to their conversion. The issue is if someone who is an apostle, and thus has received the High priesthood, forfeits his claim to it through acts of tyranny and yet continues to claim to be an apostle. 

There are just many ways your statement could be interpreted, so just making sure. The real question behind the questions is, what is a Biblically sound distinction between Paul and a candidate like Joseph Smith, who claimed Apostleship?

Both had a checkered reputation. People seem to hold possible follies of Joseph's youth against his claim, like the myth of young Joseph treasure hunting, etc. Paul only had a visionary encounter of the resurrected and long ascended Christ, consisting of a blinding light and a voice, and Paul's companions could not see what Paul saw. Does this qualify as "meeting" Jesus? Is it different for Joseph's First Vision, or anyone who has experienced seeing a light and/or hearing the voice of Jesus, thus qualifying them as having "met" Jesus for purposes of being able to be ordained an Apostle? I too believe Paul and Joseph should have been and were ordained by the hands of other Apostles, who were themselves ordained by Jesus' hands. I too object to "Apostles" who'd call themselves to office and ordained by no one or by non-Apostles.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

On 6/27/2023 at 9:39 AM, Kevin Christensen said:

The first web page for the overall study disappeared a couple of months ago, which is a problem because I have often linked to it my Interpreter essays as well as posts here.  Not having the top level summary makes navigation to the pages that remain much more difficult.  I will quote the text content for the missing first page.  The links to the subsequent would need to be redone, of course.

Thanks,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Kevin, see if it works for you now. 

[Kevin Christensen]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Kevin, see if it works for you now. 

Not yet.   I've just been sharing the topic with some missionary sisters dealing with an investigator who relies on an Evangelical site claiming that THE test for prophets is the Deuteronomy one on fulfillment of prophesy, which, of course ignores all sorts of issues and the rest of the tests.

I will check now and then.

Thanks for the effort.

Kevin Christensen 

Canonsburg, PA 

[theplains]

On 6/26/2023 at 12:02 PM, InCognitus said:

For our present day, yes:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation

"The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is a movement which seeks to establish a fifth branch within Christendom distinct from Catholicism, Protestantism (which includes classical forms of Pentecostalism, the Charismatic movement, and Evangelicalism), Oriental Orthodoxy, and Eastern Orthodoxy. The movement largely consists of churches nominally or formerly associated with Pentecostal denominations and Charismatic movements but have diverged from traditional or classical Pentecostal and Charismatic theology in that it advocates for the restoration of the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of prophet and apostle."

How do we know they are a false restoration/reformation movement when they claim they
have the true Apostleship?

[theplains]

On 6/26/2023 at 2:40 PM, Kevin Christensen said:

And it just so happens that if tested against these 28 Biblical tests, Joseph Smith comes out looking like a viable candidate.  None of his critics have taken this particular set of tests to heart.

What of the apostles in the other branches of the LDS faith?  Why are they false?

[theplains]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:22 PM, teddyaware said:

But since non-LDS Christians no longer believe there are living apostles — even though in 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 Paul makes it perfectly clear that the true Church of Christ cannot exist without them

There are other non-LDS Christians who would consider there to be living apostles.

Two examples:

This catholic-affiliated one has other apostles, which they don't identify.
https://magnificat.ca/en/who-are-the-apostles-of-infinite-love.html

New Apostolic Church - International
https://nak.org/en/
This one has a Chief Apostle and other District Apostles. They are identified.

[theplains]

On 6/27/2023 at 3:54 PM, InCognitus said:

A true apostle would have the divine commission from Jesus Christ, either directly (as in the original twelve) or through divine revelation (as in the case of the apostle Paul and Barnabas - as in Acts 13:1-3).

What is your opinion on the classification of apostles in this Canadian article?

https://paoc.org/docs/default-source/church-toolbox/position-papers/contemporary-apostles/contemporary-apostles-2022.pdf?sfvrsn=d97df36a_4

[The Nehor]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:22 PM, teddyaware said:

The existence of false apostles necessitates the existence of true apostles.

Because there are false psychics there must be real psychics? Because there are false wizards there must be real wizards?

[The Nehor]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:18 PM, Calm said:

Besides what Loudmouth said, the biggest thing was the Saints would be told that those who had all their food storage ready were to come to a special Sunday night meeting where they would be told (“called out”) to get ready to hit the road as the Church would be sending trucks to pick it all up and they would caravan in their pickups, minivans, and RV off into the mountains to white tent cities in some safe refuge where only the Chosen were allowed. The rest of the Saints having failed in their duty to prepare would be left to Satan and the mobs that were coming to imprison (North Korea or Russia were going to invade the US and the US would declare martial law), destroy or whatever.

Besides invasion, there would be numerous earthquakes, fires, floods, economic collapse and social chaos…but all would be safe and watched by God’s army (which includes heavily armed Saints) in the tent cities.   Christ would appear and the gathering of Zion from around the world would commence. 
 

Timeline might be off, there was some variation.  The horrible thing about it is it plays into fears and pushes for abandonment of friends and family who do not believe. It destroyed a lot of families both financially as they sold their house and cashed out retirement funds to buy overpriced prepper stuff and as a unit as husbands and wives, parents and children disagreed.  Hopefully there are enough red flags out there that this is unlikely to be as extreme in the future. 

The most ridiculous part of the theory is the Church would have some kind of accurate record of who would and would not be invited to the secret meeting and that it wouldn’t leak to other members around the world before the meeting even happened. Also expecting members to leave their loved ones to devastation and death.

Also in the middle of a massive military invasion a bunch of Saints with a mixture of small arms are somehow going to protect a huge enclave from attack? Yeah…..nope.

Also lol at the idea of North Korea or Russia or even China having the logistical framework to invade the United States. Realistically the only nation with anything close to that level of logistical readiness and capacity is the United States.