Increases in Baptisms, Missionary Applications, Numbers

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://wheatandtares.org/2016/10/03/church-broke/

Exactly… and that sen smith is a real freakin hero… lol. Even packer thanked him on that video they mentioned

Edited June 24, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I think they all realize the ones who shaved their beards or goatees for the calling are yes men. No doubt. The ones who didn’t…. Well apparently they don’t let a local bishop tell them to obey fake rules. 

Your mindreading skills are incredible!  You could utilize that particular talent to augment your income greatly!  You should look into it!  Zorba the Magnificent has got nothing on you!  Congratulations!

Edited June 24, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[Stargazer]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:26 AM, Diamondhands69 said:

They didn’t say that, but at barely three years you do the math.
 

Difficult to manage a ward when majority of your kids are waving a bird at the church.

It says that either the bishops family isn’t doing all the right things or doing all the right things doesn’t matter. This is Utah so anything less than cookie cutter perfection is unacceptable. 

In my stake we had a bishop released after 3 years, too, but it wasn't because of anything nefarious. The stake presidency felt that the calling was causing him difficulties in his family and that he needed some relief. It's not an easy calling, being a bishop. As for the cookies, give me a break.

[Stargazer]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:36 AM, The Nehor said:

I am pretty sure that if I ever really want a release all I have to do is disclose my sexuality to a member of the Stake Presidency.

If I were your stake president and you told me about that, all I'd do is shrug my shoulders and ask "Are you keeping the law of chastity or not?" Upon receiving an affirmative response, I'd tell you to just keep on keeping on. Unless you actually wanted to be released, whereupon I'd counsel with you to determine the best course of action.

But maybe your stake presidency is waaaay too straight-laced?

[Stargazer]

On 6/23/2023 at 3:10 PM, smac97 said:

That sure seems like both speculation and characterization.  I live in Utah, and have for most of my life.  "{A}nything less than cookie cutter perfection is unacceptable" is an unfair and inaccurate caricature, and quite alien to my experience.  And since it's a generalization ("This is Utah..."), it's speculative, too.  

So expectations about "cookie cutter perfection" a family thing?  Okay.  Elsewhere, many of the Latter-day Saints are more pragmatic and realistic about such things.

Thanks,

-Smac

In some wards, things can get really... different.

My sister-in-law lives in a ward that was squished together from two others, and some of the new people brought some pretty serious cliques with them. There seems to have grown up a rather dualistic dialectic, with certain people being the "Ins" and others being the "Outs". From what she says, it's the bishop that is at the root of it. He called counselors of a similar mindset to himself and things got really weird. 

Maybe Diamond is in such a ward or something similar.

Going back to my mission field in Germany, there was a branch in a town that was quite thriving until some members formed a "nest" of "prophets" that tore the social fabric of the branch apart. The mission president ended up excommunicating the ringleaders, closed the branch, and spread the remaining members into neighboring branches. That was about 60 years or so ago. Nowadays the town has a thriving ward again. But it was crazy for a time -- or so I was told by some members who had experienced it.

Edited to add: Another story from my mission in Germany. I served for three months in one ward where, when the ward was organized (just two years before I arrived there) during the sustaining of the new bishopric, the second counselor got six "No" votes! The organizing authority conferred with the No voters after the meeting in order to see what the issue was, and it turned out that these brethren had personal objections to the man. They did not like him at all. The authority then schooled them on what the valid reasons for voting No are, which do not include not liking someone. In the next sacrament meeting the six brethren were invited to stand and sustain the new second counselor, which they did. In my experience with the brother in question, he was a jerk. And I already didn't much care for him even before the story was told to me. To be fair, an arrogant jerk he might have been, but he seemed to be fulfilling his calling adequately. The ward actually did have problems with in-fighting and cliques. While tracting, we ran into a surprising number of inactive members who had stopped attending because of jealousies, offenses, and so on. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

20 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

We had lots of trump yard signs at one point. 

Well, that's got to be the height of evil!

I'd put up a Trump yard sign, except here in the UK it would be very peculiar.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

If I were your stake president and you told me about that, all I'd do is shrug my shoulders and ask "Are you keeping the law of chastity or not?" Upon receiving an affirmative response, I'd tell you to just keep on keeping on. Unless you actually wanted to be released, whereupon I'd counsel with you to determine the best course of action.

But maybe your stake presidency is waaaay too strait-laced?

It is the last thing.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is the last thing.

That sucks. I live in a stake where the leadership actually cares about the members. Well, I'm sure your stake leaders do care, but express it in somewhat counterproductive ways. You're welcome to move to England and live in my stake. Much smaller wards and greater opportunities for service.

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

That sucks. I live in a stake where the leadership actually cares about the members. Well, I'm sure your stake leaders do care, but express it in somewhat counterproductive ways. You're welcome to move to England and live in my stake. Much smaller wards and greater opportunities for service.

Going back to my mission would probably feel weird at this point. Thanks though.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

That sucks. I live in a stake where the leadership actually cares about the members. Well, I'm sure your stake leaders do care, but express it in somewhat counterproductive ways. You're welcome to move to England and live in my stake. Much smaller wards and greater opportunities for service.

What mission do you live in?

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

What mission do you live in?

England London

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

England London

My husband served in Birmingham so I wondered. 

[Stargazer]

On 6/23/2023 at 8:54 AM, Teancum said:

And my guess is retention is still dismal.

The Parable of the Sower.

[Stargazer]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My husband served in Birmingham so I wondered. 

Nice! My wife was born in Birmingham, but her family would have moved elsewhere by the time he was there.

[Teancum]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The Parable of the Sower.

There is always a reason.  Church grows fast-it it the stone cut out of the mountain  to fill the whole earth. It grows slow-its numbers per the BoM will be small.  Lose new members, poor activity rates is the sower parable or the elect will be deceived.  Heads either way for religion it seems.

[Diamondhands69]

On 6/25/2023 at 3:34 AM, Stargazer said:

Well, that's got to be the height of evil!

I'd put up a Trump yard sign, except here in the UK it would be very peculiar.

Not making a statement about the candidate. I’m speaking to the lack of a discernible political divide in my ward… stake. 

[Navidad]

What does the handbook say about facial hair? These days in "our" ward, if it doesn't mention facial hair, no member is allowed to have a face! 😀

[Kenngo1969]

31 minutes ago, Navidad said:

What does the handbook say about facial hair? These days in "our" ward, if it doesn't mention facial hair, no member is allowed to have a face! 😀

You have a bunch of bearded ladies in your ward, then?    

[BlueDreams]

dup

Edited June 26, 2023 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:35 PM, Tacenda said:

Thanks for answering, I thought maybe Utah was different than other areas besides maybe Idaho, that's why I asked. Anyway, transplants seem to dislike how Utah LDS behave.

I'm a transplant (as is my husband). For me it depends the Utah LDS member. i've met plenty that I thoroughly enjoy and deeply respect. This includes several leaders that I knew particularly well as a YSA, as well as ones who I worked with as a therapist with bishop pay. There's been a handful that annoy me and the overarching culture can sometimes be difficult for me to stomach in large doses (which is why we attend the spanish ward). But I can say the same if not moreso for places like the dallas metroplex. Ironically one of the traits I'm not a big fan of is a tendency of UT LDS members to be pretty quick to crap on their own culture when they stumble on a problem to two in it. Every culture has it's weaknesses and limitations. Utahns are not exceptionally dysfunctional... they're just human.  

 

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:56 PM, Diamondhands69 said:

My ward it totally made up of just my neighborhood or housing subdivision. In fact the subdivision is divided pretty much in half and there are two wards. All homes are more than $600k. My ward has both young professionals (30-40s) and retired professionals (attorneys, drs engineers etc) aged about mid fifty’s to 70s. Lots of temple workers and people going on senior missions. Area is long time Mormon stronghold with lots of temples. Surnames in our ward widely recognized as Mormon names. 
 

let’s put it this way… in terms of hardliners. Our stake pres who is only mid fifty’s mandates all bishoprics, EQPs, HC and Stake Presidency to be clean shaven. He gets compliance 100%. How? Beats me but no one messes with it that I have seen.

the hardline attitude is going nowhere for a long time. 

That may shift faster than you expect. Our stake is shifting a little though it definitely has some "hardline" orientations that just don't wanna die. But I've noticed that these often are getting some push back. For example when our YW stake presidency tried to enforce the ward YW leaders to push modesty assumptions, they received both overt and quiet pushback on it. The beard/long hair one is still a thing for our stake as well. I can't figure out why. I think it may be slower when there's more similarity in the ward/stake make up (it leaves less conflict between culture and actual doctrines/policies)....but I doubt it won't meet some conflict well before the 20 year mark. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Couganova]

very

[Couganova]

good!

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

There is always a reason.  Church grows fast-it it the stone cut out of the mountain  to fill the whole earth. It grows slow-its numbers per the BoM will be small.  Lose new members, poor activity rates is the sower parable or the elect will be deceived.  Heads either way for religion it seems.

I suppose that's a form of coping. Not saying you're wrong (though I do believe you're wrong). But I have a strong testimony of the church, and you don't, so of course we'll disagree on this.

But it is the case that the stone cut out of the mountain did grow fast. Early growth of the church bears this out. Slowing down at a later date doesn't contradict this. As for filling the whole earth, have a look at the Meetinghouse Locator map.

It's not the complete map of the world, because if you zoom out far enough, the dots become difficult to discern.

What's the definition of "fill"? A faithful person might see it as "it's everywhere where there are people". An unbeliever might say, "It's a miniscule fraction of the world's population."

Except for China, Russia, and countries where Islam is the ruling factor (i.e. either political or religious reasons) there are meetinghouses available for most of the world's population.

I don't see a good reason to disregard the prophecy in regards to the church.

On the other hand, one could come up with a map of Catholic meetinghouses and it would drown out "our" map. 

On yet another hand, does the prophecy refer to ONLY the LDS, or does it pertain to Christianity as a whole? It might very well be the latter. While the true church itself forms a small minority in the whole picture. As you indicate, one CAN have it both ways.

Thanks for your response! It gave me some food for thought!

[Duncan]

Joseph Smith corrected Elder Erastus Snow in regards to the "stone cut out"

 "I will correct the idea in regard to the little stone rolling forth, as foretold in Daniel, chapter 2.This is not so. It is stationary, like a grind stone, and revolves. (He made a motion with his hands showing how it turned.) When the Elders go abroad to preach the gospel, and the people become believers in the Book of Mormon and are baptized, they are added to the little stone. Thus, they are gathered around it so that it grows larger and larger until it begins to pinch the toes of the image, and finally breaks it into pieces to be carried away like the chaff of a summer’s threshing, the stone will keep growing until its fills the whole earth." Andrus, They Knew the Prophet, p.100 SLC Bookcraft.